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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

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I am/WAS hoping for a larger format....IMAX is one thing and we can bring that to the table with R1 and Epic....but NOW....I am dipping into dome theater---NEED more height from the camera...maybe that will be the....what is it called 646 sensor or something.. But i'm fried when someone brings a timelapse to the table shot on a Cannon 5d because of the Full Frame sensor...and i can't compete in Dome theater because of the slightly smaller height of the Epic and soon to be Dragon sensor....Most if not all dome theater is graphics--BUT, this can change with a LARGER SENSOR--bring it PLEASE--there IS a market for it.
 
George Tsai said:
I'd have to disagree. Dragon is hardly solving the "lack of resolution problem", thats what Epic has already accomplished by surpassing S35 film resolution. However it does bring a lot of us one step closer to that of an IMAX resolution, and that for me just can't come soon enough. Dynamic range is another, 15+ stops is hard to argue against. and I'd speculate better low light performance as well. and who knows what color science can do with the amount of data provided by the dragon sensor.

And even tho clock speed of computing has more or less level out at 3-4GHz excluding over clocking, the sppeed performances and benchmarks still continue to shoot up very fast with new multi threading processing and ever more powerfull video cards. Many processes are also being integrated into the CPU reducing the time needed for seperate devices to communicate. New materials being developed will bring faster and more efficiency to our processors. There is tons more advancments to be made in computing technology.

Granted it's definitely not for everyone, not yet anyways. But for those of us who always wants to push the boundaries and be above and beyond, we are extremely excited:-)
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Dynamic range is cool, yes, but that's not the first foot they put forward - the foot they put forward is "6K for 6K". ALready executive producers complain about the expense of processing 5K footage - they may be right or wrong, but they are the ones who pay the bills. 6K is, in their minds, an even worse problem which will, in reality, only make them ask for Alexa all the more Again, they are the client, so arguing beyond a certain point is not very useful. almost noen of us will ever make anything destined for an Imax screen.

99.999% of our work is for HD broadcast. 99.999% of our work is for use maybe 1 year, maybe less. We are like most Red camera users in that way. 5K was already a bit much. 6K is of NO USE to us. I don't work in the future, I work today, and deal with deadlines today. I also don't work for clients and financiers who think the way you or I think they should, I work for clients and financiers who think the way they do, right or wrong.

In practical terms, we have 5 workstations here. You want me to upgrade all 5 to handle 6K? Then it's not 6K for 6K, it's 6K for about 40K or more. And agin, sometimes we hand in footage to others too - you want me to pay for their upgrades too?

There is no mass consumer demand for faster processors. Study after study shows that people think their computers are "more than fast enough". They did not say that in the 1990s when Moore's Law was completely true. The money has (mostly) left the building in terms of processor research directed at speed - now they are aiming for lower production costs and longer laptop battery life because this means something to Joe and Jane computer shoppers.
 
I don't see why there couldn't be a FF35 (or larger) Dragon sensor/brain.

But I don't see the point in being disappointed in Dragon until I see it.
 
the point is reached where unrealistic demands should be punished by getting a dickhead pic in the avatar of the guys doing it hehe.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
I'm sorry, did you get a sneak peak of tho sensor and actually USE the sensor Rob?
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I am only responding the marketing of the thing, and giving my two cents in terms of my reaction to that marketing. The marketing could have said "a whole new realm of dynamic range and frame rates" but instead the slugline is "'6K for 6K"

I own two Red cameras and co-own a third - that includes two Epics. I am a good Red customer. For this customer - and I assume I am not completely alone/a weirdo in this feeling - 6K is a turn-off. 5K was just past the sweet spot in terms of all the trade-offs involved. I am giving honest feedback to Red here, about my needs in the aim of helping them promote and deliver Dragon to be as successful as possible.

Like any customer - and this is especially true of high-ego artistic types and independent business owners whom as a group do not like being told what to think - I am impressed by what affects what I consider important, not by what other people say I consider important.
 
Brad Webb said:
You can still shoot 5K or 4K with a Dragon upgraded Epic
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No, you can't, not with as wide a field of view as they stated the pixel density will be smaller. Thus I will be paying more processor overhead to deal with footage that has the same field of view. In the very real reality of budget and time constraints, this will not make my life better and will make me think twice about upgrading, maybe even pass.
 
PatrickW said:
I don't see why there couldn't be a FF35 (or larger) Dragon sensor/brain.

But I don't see the point in being disappointed in Dragon until I see it.
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Both of these things were on the original epic announcement 6k full frame and 9k 645 sensors. But they may not fit the epic-x body. Hence an upgraded sensor in the mean time - maybe with 5k inside the s35 measurement so true 4k after debayer and works with current cine lenses.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Dynamic range is cool, yes, but that's not the first foot they put forward - the foot they put forward is "6K for 6K". ALready executive producers complain about the expense of processing 5K footage - they may be right or wrong, but they are the ones who pay the bills. 6K is, in their minds, an even worse problem which will, in reality, only make them ask for Alexa all the more Again, they are the client, so arguing beyond a certain point is not very useful. almost noen of us will ever make anything destined for an Imax screen.

99.999% of our work is for HD broadcast. 99.999% of our work is for use maybe 1 year, maybe less. We are like most Red camera users in that way. 5K was already a bit much. 6K is of NO USE to us. I don't work in the future, I work today, and deal with deadlines today. I also don't work for clients and financiers who think the way you or I think they should, I work for clients and financiers who think the way they do, right or wrong.

In practical terms, we have 5 workstations here. You want me to upgrade all 5 to handle 6K? Then it's not 6K for 6K, it's 6K for about 40K or more. And agin, sometimes we hand in footage to others too - you want me to pay for their upgrades too?

There is no mass consumer demand for faster processors. Study after study shows that people think their computers are "more than fast enough". They did not say that in the 1990s when Moore's Law was completely true. The money has (mostly) left the building in terms of processor research directed at speed - now they are aiming for lower production costs and longer laptop battery life because this means something to Joe and Jane computer shoppers.
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Hearing the announcment first hand at NAB I would hardly say the dragon sensor is a one line 6K trumps all. Regardless of what Red is perceived to be putting on a mantel (which has been 4K, and I'll admit makes it seem like all Red cares about is resolution), it doesn't take away from the announced dynamic range and frame rate.

But yes, 1080P is good enough for current HD broadcast. 2K is good enough for most people. Very few people will have an IMAX screening. But there are many who believe in shooting 4K+, there are those who can present in 4K and beyond, and for people like me always have very ambitious goals. I certainly don't want you to upgrade your system, because then you'll have better system than mine hehehe:-P Joking aside, it's like I said, it's not for everyone. But things like this has to start somewhere and then over the years trickle it's way down to consumers and lower prices. For me and i'm sure many others, this is a great push forward.

I dont know where the study you refer to comes from, but I'd always take those studies with a grain of salt. Statistical numbers and studies are easily and far too often skewed to "prove" one's point. And I have a hunch that people will think their computers are "more than fast enough" until they see how much faster the new computers are. I also don't think it matter if there is no mass consumer demand for faster processors because some company somewhere will always be pushing technology forward and eventually it will trickle down to consumers.

The dragon will really only be a big dissapointment if it didn't have a higher resolution, it's kind of what many expect of Red. And it would be just as big a dissapointment without the increase in dynamic range. Sensor size increase would be nice, but with some s35 lenses already vignetting, it really is a whole new ball game.
 
Relative perspective. I don't think everybody's computers are being choked by 5k material. Many of the Dragon's upgrade features are very desirable.

One day, I agree, it would be nice to have a FF35 sensor. Many would want a native 4:3 sensor who have shot with S35 or anamorphic as well. 6k helps with the anamorphic shooting area for sure though. 4:3 as a delivery aspect ratio is quickly dying, that is if you consider it still alive.

In all honesty, we should all be excited because we don't need to purchase a new camera to get all these features. Depending on how this goes for Scarlet X shooters this could be one of the best deals out there for a long time.

I'm just hoping we get some ability to shoot around 48-96fps at 4k, and really hoping to capture at speed (24fps) at 6k. That makes it a no brainer upgrade for many and doesn't hit the current Epic's specs negatively. Currently though the Scarlet Dragon is TBD in a big way. I think by the time Dragon lands for Epic there will be a bit more interest in it than many think.

The only downside to Dragon at the moment is the wait. Epic upgrades happen at the end of this year, Scarlet upgrades early 2013. At that point we'll likely see a lot of manufacturers trying to fix their previous 4k efforts into more capable cameras. Then a price war is actually going to really become a real issue in terms of cost versus performance. Nothing at NAB this year touched Red in reality. In 2013, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of other manufacturers.
 
George Tsai said:
Hearing the announcment first hand at NAB I would hardly say the dragon sensor is a one line 6K trumps all. Regardless of what Red is perceived to be putting on a mantel (which has been 4K, and I'll admit makes it seem like all Red cares about is resolution), it doesn't take away from the announced dynamic range and frame rate.

But yes, 1080P is good enough for current HD broadcast. 2K is good enough for most people. Very few people will have an IMAX screening. But there are many who believe in shooting 4K+, there are those who can present in 4K and beyond, and for people like me always have very ambitious goals. I certainly don't want you to upgrade your system, because then you'll have better system than mine hehehe:-P Joking aside, it's like I said, it's not for everyone. But things like this has to start somewhere and then over the years trickle it's way down to consumers and lower prices. For me and i'm sure many others, this is a great push forward.

I dont know where the study you refer to comes from, but I'd always take those studies with a grain of salt. Statistical numbers and studies are easily and far too often skewed to "prove" one's point. And I have a hunch that people will think their computers are "more than fast enough" until they see how much faster the new computers are. I also don't think it matter if there is no mass consumer demand for faster processors because some company somewhere will always be pushing technology forward and eventually it will trickle down to consumers.

The dragon will really only be a big dissapointment if it didn't have a higher resolution, it's kind of what many expect of Red. And it would be just as big a dissapointment without the increase in dynamic range. Sensor size increase would be nice, but with some s35 lenses already vignetting, it really is a whole new ball game.
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No, 2K and 1080p were not good enough for VFX tracking and compositing, not even good enough for really refined edging in aggressive secondary grading. Not even nearly good enough if you wanted to do a bit of re-framing.

No. But 5K? Yes, more than good enough - as anyway it's at the limit of what our lenses can resolve - so unless the field of view becomes wider - and we zoom out a bit from lens defects - I don't see the point.
 
Phil Holland said:
Relative perspective. I don't think everybody's computers are being choked by 5k material. Many of the Dragon's upgrade features are very desirable.

One day, I agree, it would be nice to have a FF35 sensor. Many would want a native 4:3 sensor who have shot with S35 or anamorphic as well. 6k helps with the anamorphic shooting area for sure though. 4:3 as a delivery aspect ratio is quickly dying, that is if you consider it still alive.

In all honesty, we should all be excited because we don't need to purchase a new camera to get all these features. Depending on how this goes for Scarlet X shooters this could be one of the best deals out there for a long time.

I'm just hoping we get some ability to shoot around 48-96fps at 4k, and really hoping to capture at speed (24fps) at 6k. That makes it a no brainer upgrade for many and doesn't hit the current Epic's specs negatively. Currently though the Scarlet Dragon is TBD in a big way. I think by the time Dragon lands for Epic there will be a bit more interest in it than many think.

The only downside to Dragon at the moment is the wait. Epic upgrades happen at the end of this year, Scarlet upgrades early 2013. At that point we'll likely see a lot of manufacturers trying to fix their previous 4k efforts into more capable cameras. Then a price war is actually going to really become a real issue in terms of cost versus performance. Nothing at NAB this year touched Red in reality. In 2013, who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of other manufacturers.
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5K material = edge of choking for very many people. Not everybody, but many workstations at many post houses big and small.
 
Come on guys, disappointed with 6k already and it hasn't even come out yet... hmmm. You do realize that 6k is just a stepping stone the the next sensor right? Pretty soon it'll be 9k and so on.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
No, 2K and 1080p were not good enough for VFX tracking and compositing, not even good enough for really refined edging in aggressive secondary grading. Not even nearly good enough if you wanted to do a bit of re-framing.

No. But 5K? Yes, more than good enough - as anyway it's at the limit of what our lenses can resolve - so unless the field of view becomes wider - and we zoom out a bit from lens defects - I don't see the point.
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It's like Phil said above, "Relative perspective."

To you _____ and ___ is not good enough while it is for someone else and what you think is good enough for you isn't for someone else. Not every project needs vfx and not every project needs to reframe. I have worked with people on all ends and none of them are wrong. And IS it beyond what lenses can resolve? I'm pretty sure my superspeeds can't, but seeing how shart the RPP, Master primes, ultra primes, and several more lenses I'm pretty confident that at least one of those can. but until we see charts and test shoots who knows for sure?
 
It's funny how there are threads on reduser with people swearing that you don't need a beefed up editing rig, and then there are threads where people complain that their rig is not nearly enough.
 
There is no stopping progress and no stopping Jim and Team Red. If your machines can't keep up, ask your clients to shoot less than 5K. Seems simple to me.
 
I'll add that if every company only makes product for what the "majority" wants, then Red would've never existed along with probably many advancements we have in technology today. I didn't know I want an Audi R8 until someone at Audi designed and built it right? So if they only made what I thought I wanted, R8 would've never existed hehe:-P
 
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