I'd like to chime in, if I may...

[Adam Rook]

I debated for a long time whether to write this or not but decided to go ahead. My dad had a saying, "Do the best you can with what you have."

I just want to say that with all the Weapon news these past couple days I'm kinda shocked at some of the responses here. So many people are upset because of the price break for Weapon. Just think about the last part of that sentence for a moment. I may lose a lot of credibility after saying this but I love this forum and I'm so happy that many of you have taken time to answer questions I've had and are willing to let me chime in on things and I'm treated like one of the guys. Well guess what, I don't even own a Red. And maybe my view would be different if I did but it kinda shocks me how many people are ticked off at the whole Weapon thing.

Count your blessings guys. I'm still shooting on a Canon DSLR. Why? Partly because I have a full-time job and I'm working to grow my business on the weekends but also because Canon doesn't offer to let me trade in my 5 year old camera for a new one. No body does. People are acting like they are screwed now because of Weapon. You're not. From my perspective you all have the greatest thing going for you. You get to wake up every morning and fire up your Scarlet, or Epic, or even R1 and create amazing images. Weapon isn't even available right now and won't be for some time. Right now you still have the most cutting edge camera on the market. I'm super jealous of all of you and honestly it kinda rubs me the wrong way to hear so many people angry at Jarred and Jim for not offering "enough" trade in for the newest toys. You can't get that from Arri. You can't get it from BMD.

As I said, I'm not officially a member of the Red family, yet. But one day I promise I will be. Just try to think back to the day before you got your first Red and remember how excited you were. Be grateful that you have what you have and that Red STILL supports you. I'm not sure Canon supports me anymore nor could they care less.

When Weapon is released none of you guys are out of a job. You still get to make beautiful images. And you'll still be able to do it for many years to come. Look at what is STILL being produced with R1s.

All I'm trying to say is take a break, breathe for a minute and then look at your Epic sitting on your desk and say to yourself, "My God I have the greatest tool in the world at my disposal any time I want." And then remember the guys that are still scratching a clawing to get to where you are right now. Count your blessing. I'm completely jealous of you all.

I hope this doesn't discredit me too much from posting here.

 

[Joan Poggio]

Well said Adam. I started with Scarlet, upgraded to Epic-MX and then to Dragon. I am not disillusioned at all with the cost of Weapon. Yes, it's more than I had expected, but there must be a very valid and real reason as to why. I get to shoot what I want the way I want because of Red, and I can't thank them enough for allowing me to go up the RED ladder at my own pace. If I ever want to go Weapon, I know the pathway is open to me, or I just sell my Epic Dragon, and I'm still lucky!

 

[Teague Kennedy]

Affordable

Affordable

Hey Adam, thanks for chiming in. I’m another person who doesn’t post very often to this forum but have read it almost every day for the past decade. I am a member of the Red family and purchased Red One serial number 258 long before the Red One existed. So I’m an old “Fan Boy” and member of the little army that helped push Red along through the years in my very small very humble way. I was a member of DVX community before Red, and owned a DVX100 because IMHO it was a game changer that put incredible image quality (for the time) in the hands of the individual consumer/prosumer. When Red came into the picture, it was another game changer and though it was definitely priced higher than the prosumer video cameras of the time, it was accessible to me. I then upgraded to Epic X and then to Dragon, and although it was difficult to find the funds, the upgrades were again accessible. To so many this new upgrade is affordable, but for me it just simply isn't. Perhaps I’m a poor business man that in all these years my business has not grown to keep up with the pace of Red Digital Cinema. They are not wrong to capitalize on their hard work and great ideas. But for some of us old “Fan Boys” it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that the company has outgrown us. We are just bitter old men. Forgive us while we pout.

 

[Clayton Taylor]

I think the problem is that it was pushed hard how awesome weapon is going to be so you HAVE to have a dragon before NAB to take advantage of it.. so many people dropped a grip of cash to get a new camera which this week was valued at next to nothing by their own makers... for example.. Scarlet Dragon is a 14.5k brain alone... trade in is $2.5k... you do that math.

 

[Phil Holland]

I think the problem is that it was pushed hard how awesome weapon is going to be so you HAVE to have a dragon before NAB to take advantage of it.. so many people dropped a grip of cash to get a new camera which this week was valued at next to nothing by their own makers... for example.. Scarlet Dragon is a 14.5k brain alone... trade in is $2.5k... you do that math.

This is still not correct if you upgraded or own a Scarlet-X Dragon before NAB. The credit is $5000 for previous owners. After NAB it's $2500. And both of those situations come with a $5000 Accessory Credit you can spend anytime.

That is the math.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I think the problem is that it was pushed hard how awesome weapon is going to be so you HAVE to have a dragon before NAB to take advantage of it.. so many people dropped a grip of cash to get a new camera which this week was valued at next to nothing by their own makers... for example.. Scarlet Dragon is a 14.5k brain alone... trade in is $2.5k... you do that math.

But that wrong, check the deal again... you are basically 7.5k USD wrong. You get 10k USD if you trade in your scarlet dragon today. 5k towards accessory and 5k deducted on the camera. 5+5 is 10 ok...

So you bought the camera for 14.5k you get 10k back, or if you wait and do not pay the deposit now you are able to get 7.5k USD for the camera, granted you need to buy accessories for 5k but still you get atleast 7,5k worth for the camera you bought.... and hopfully been able to use over some time, if not you can use it for some time forward and then still upgrade and get that 7,5k back....

Further more, red does not force you to trade in your camera you are free to sell it to anyone here or on EBAY... Red is like any business, compare to a car dealer where you can trade in your old car when you decide to pick up a new one. And by doing so you do not have to go trough the hassle of dealing with a buyer etc. What I wonder is why on earth do you guys think that you would get much more than half the original cost back when you come back with the car after a few years use? It´s an old model, it´s used hence the value is lowered.

Here is Jarreds quote for scarlet upgrade discount:

- If you own SCARLET-X DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON is $5000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Scarlet-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in is $2500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit .

The above really tells me that owning a scarlet dragon before getting weapon can be done for as little as 4.5k USD... if thats not a great fucking deal, what is?

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

$5000 accessory credit is to compensate for the accessories a Scarlet owner bought. Why apply it to the camera as well?

 

[Björn Benckert]

$5000 accessory credit is to compensate for the accessories a Scarlet owner bought. Why apply it to the camera as well?

Dont understand... You mean those 5k USD are not worth anything or why does red give away 5k USD worth of accessories for no reason?

I mean you bought the accessories with / for your scarlet and they are yours to keep or sell. But you say you want compensation?

 

[Teague Kennedy]

I think part of the reason for frustration of some of the people who upgraded to Dragon at the last minute is that for many of them Weapon is not affordable at all even if they upgraded. They spent their wad to get into Dragon and then saw that what they paid for the upgrade was just a sliver of what they were going to need to spend to get to their goal of having a Weapon. I can see how that would sting.

 

[Adam Rook]

I just don't think Red will leave everyone in the lurch after NAB. They've been really good to their customer base and that's one of the reasons I'm working so hard to get one. I mean you can't send your C300 back to Canon and demand $2.5K toward a C300 MKii. I can understand the frustration, honestly I can. Especially with the MX-Dragon upgrade being like getting a new camera for $20K less than a new camera. The good thing about all the frustration is that Red's customers have a voice. And they listen. And I do also realize that I'm looking at it from an outsiders perspective.

But from an outsiders perspective you have the Ferrari of cameras. Sure it's not the LaFerrari but it is the F12 Berlinetta. How many people can say they have that? Hopefully soon it will be me.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Part of the confusion is this. Not sure this will make any one feel better but here goes.

It is correct that if you trade in an EpicMD you get 22.5 effectively against your upgrade. So it is effectively 12K. Now it is true you need new mags if you haven't already done that so you need to add that.

Now consider this. In the time you have had ownership of your Dragon or Scarlet (and I know some folks only had them recently) that ownership has value. I mean if you had rented the camera even from Adorama you would be into it for a lot of bucks in rental out. So you have to give the luxury of ownership some value right. Now the other thing to bear in mind in the upgrade is, no one is being foreced to upgrade today. So you could use and get value from your camera for months before you upgrade to recoup.

For some of us who have battled through the Dragon dev - the options that Weapon offers for 12K are worth it if you want to stary with the program. Hell if you use the camera lot the blackshade thing alone is a 'thankyou very much'.

So it is not thievery. It is still a better deal than most. If I am layiong out 12K in camers $$ this year I am sure as ***** going Weapon Mg than C300M2.

 

[Clayton Taylor]

lol yeah.. FUCK canon and their C300m2. They wont make a 5Dm4 with 4k because they know it will murder their STUPID price pointed c300m2... *facepalm* they're seriously committing suicide with the video side of things.

 

[Zhibo Lai]

I'll add my two cents as well. I was a Scarlet owner -> upgraded to Epic MX and had no need for Dragon. Only did the upgrade to Dragon last week because of the push to Weapon upgrade before NAB deal. Would have been perfectly happy with Epic-MX. With Weapon info now avail, I have to admit I was at first set back at the upgrade cost for a new Body same sensor. But after letting the dust settle, I am now glad I upgraded to Dragon before NAB, even though I will not be upgrading to Weapon anytime soon.

Here's my thinking:
+ as pre-NAB Dragon owners, we get to trade in our Epic-X Dragon for $15,500 + $5000 = $20,500 credit (and this is not limited to NAB week to decide, we have more time)
+ Comparing price of new Dragon 24,000 - 20,500 = 3,500 difference. That's seem very fair for trade in credit.
+ Weapon is out of my price range for now, and most of the features are more luxury features for me, at least today, that will likely change in the coming months.
+ The good thing is that both Epic and Weapon share the same sensor, so image quality is practically the same (give or take half a stop and less compression).
+ I still have top-of-line Red image quality and that's what clients/producer/directors will buy into rather than extra body features.
+ for rentals and film gigs, Epic Dragons will rent for less than Weapon Dragons, same image quality. I feel Epic Dragon will get more of the share of lower end production rentals.
+ The Epics and Scarlet are not end of life and still has future for new sensor upgrades along with Weapon.

For those reasons I am now feel much better with upgrading to Dragon pre-NAB. Images and DR are spectacular. I'll be making gorgeous images with these for years and will easily pay for its upgrade in months. Who knows, maybe after then I will upgrade to weapon with that $20,500 credit still avail.

Kudos to Red of giving us these options to choose from.

 

[Adam Rook]

Hey Clayton how do you feel about Canon's cameras?

 

[Clayton Taylor]

lmao ok I came to RED from the 5Dm3 world because.. well, there's no comparison... I still have to shoot some DSLR work for weddings, and life would be hella easier if they'd get on the 4k band wagon with everyone else AT LEAST. They're so becoming the apple iphone of the camera industry.. making changes to play catch up... 4k could at least allow for punching in/reframing like everyone else... their cheapest entry is the older 1Dc - for 8k. Hell, buy a Scarlet at that price. They just make ZERO sense.

 

[emil tanem]

I think part of the reason for frustration of some of the people who upgraded to Dragon at the last minute is that for many of them Weapon is not affordable at all even if they upgraded. They spent their wad to get into Dragon and then saw that what they paid for the upgrade was just a sliver of what they were going to need to spend to get to their goal of having a Weapon. I can see how that would sting.

Nailed it. The biggest problem is that we, the customers, has been forced into trusting statements like "NAB will be awesome for Dragon owners". That is fine by most people (not all!) in good times. However, it backfires once RED can't keep such promises. But wait, such things have happened before.. Well. A delayed camera is very annoying, but when an upgrade by many believed to be in the $5000-$9500 area turns out to be approx $19000. Then they've just spent $9500 on something they didn't really want.
It's not the upgrade solution people are complaining about. It's the fact they've been dragged into using more money than they wanted to on something they don't really want/can't afford.

I hope this won't kill Red completely in the long run. The film industry has a long history and Red does not carry the weight of "Arri" yet (unfortunately imho). That is probably exactly because of stunts like this.

 

[M. Lalande]

I'll add my two cents as well. I was a Scarlet owner -> upgraded to Epic MX and had no need for Dragon. Only did the upgrade to Dragon last week because of the push to Weapon upgrade before NAB deal. Would have been perfectly happy with Epic-MX. With Weapon info now avail, I have to admit I was at first set back at the upgrade cost for a new Body same sensor. But after letting the dust settle, I am now glad I upgraded to Dragon before NAB, even though I will not be upgrading to Weapon anytime soon.

Here's my thinking:
+ as pre-NAB Dragon owners, we get to trade in our Epic-X Dragon for $15,500 + $5000 = $20,500 credit (and this is not limited to NAB week to decide, we have more time)
+ Comparing price of new Dragon 24,000 - 20,500 = 3,500 difference. That's seem very fair for trade in credit.
+ Weapon is out of my price range for now, and most of the features are more luxury features for me, at least today, that will likely change in the coming months.
+ The good thing is that both Epic and Weapon share the same sensor, so image quality is practically the same (give or take half a stop and less compression).
+ I still have top-of-line Red image quality and that's what clients/producer/directors will buy into rather than extra body features.
+ for rentals and film gigs, Epic Dragons will rent for less than Weapon Dragons, same image quality. I feel Epic Dragon will get more of the share of lower end production rentals.
+ The Epics and Scarlet are not end of life and still has future for new sensor upgrades along with Weapon.

For those reasons I am now feel much better with upgrading to Dragon pre-NAB. Images and DR are spectacular. I'll be making gorgeous images with these for years and will easily pay for its upgrade in months. Who knows, maybe after then I will upgrade to weapon with that $20,500 credit still avail.

Kudos to Red of giving us these options to choose from.

Hey Zhibo!

Are you sure the 5000$ credit isn't limited to NAB week?
I got an email from red that says the contrary. (and I too own an EPIC dragon)
Where did you get that info?

 

[Akin A]

Adam, one thing to consider is how a lot of redusers make their money.

Some own rental businesses. When a new camera is released, people tend to want the latest and the value of their old gear goes down, so they might have to keep up to be relevant.
Some shoot commercials. The client might want the latest HFR camera and the competition might have the latest, so they have to keep up.
Some shoot for clients who are scared of RAW and want ProRes. I couldn't care less about ProRes acquisition, but apparently, many clients do, according to redusers.

For those of us, like myself, producing our own independent films/series, what you said applies. We have complete control over what gear we choose and how to make it look as best as we can. Our competition is other films/series, not other cinematographers or rental houses.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

RED should make a bottom Line

I just upgraded my epic to dragon last month to take advantage of the weapon body upgrade. I'm also not a person to jump on first releases due to issues that may need to be fixed. More information is needed. 6k sensor updates??? Also upgrading will cost you ports that were originally included in the Epic body which may or may not be fair. Will there be a 645 based sensor? I'd prefer medium format over 35mm.

RED Epic Dragon CF 6k to CF Weapon Dragon 6k = Total $$$
RED Epic Dragon 6k to Magnesium Weapon Dragon 6k = Total $$$
ETC.

 

[Adam Rook]

Adam, one thing to consider is how a lot of redusers make their money.

Some own rental businesses. When a new camera is released, people tend to want the latest and the value of their old gear goes down, so they might have to keep up to be relevant.
Some shoot commercials. The client might want the latest HFR camera and the competition might have the latest, so they have to keep up.
Some shoot for clients who are scared of RAW and want ProRes. I couldn't care less about ProRes acquisition, but apparently, many clients do, according to redusers.

For those of us, like myself, producing our own independent films/series, what you said applies. We have complete control over what gear we choose and how to make it look as best as we can. Our competition is other films/series, not other cinematographers or rental houses.

Well put, Akin. Admittedly I didn't think of it that way. Really I was thinking from my perspective. I too shoot pretty much what I want the way I want. Glad to get another point of view on it. Thanks for that.
Good to see it from other's perspectives.