I'd like to chime in, if I may...

[Milan S.]

I think you are misconstruing the gripe people have.

It's not the price of the upgrade people have a gripe with, it's the VALUE of the upgrade.

Myself and many others were ready to place the deposit on Monday morning, until the spec came out.
For an Epic Dragon owner-operator, the upgrade simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Hey Zhibo!

Are you sure the 5000$ credit isn't limited to NAB week?
I got an email from red that says the contrary. (and I too own an EPIC dragon)
Where did you get that info?

That email is jacked. I don't know why they haven't sent out a follow-up email clearly stating the policy. Jarred added these two lines to his original Mg Weapon post:

Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.

Optionally, if you wish to purchase Weapon new ( not upgrade your camera ) you will receive the $5000 accessory credit, but only if you purchase the new Weapon during NAB.

 

[shashbugu]

I just don't think Red will leave everyone in the lurch after NAB. They've been really good to their customer base and that's one of the reasons I'm working so hard to get one. I mean you can't send your C300 back to Canon and demand $2.5K toward a C300 MKii. I can understand the frustration, honestly I can. Especially with the MX-Dragon upgrade being like getting a new camera for $20K less than a new camera. The good thing about all the frustration is that Red's customers have a voice. And they listen. And I do also realize that I'm looking at it from an outsiders perspective.

But from an outsiders perspective you have the Ferrari of cameras. Sure it's not the LaFerrari but it is the F12 Berlinetta. How many people can say they have that? Hopefully soon it will be me.

If you send your C300 back to Canon, you'll be waiting for a response for the rest of your life. LOL... good one Adam

 

[Greg Barley]

I admit I'm guilty of it too, but it's so easy to say how pervasive the "moths to a flame" mentality can be. Everything that RED is doing is pretty exciting, and we all get caught up into wanting to keep up with it all. My small company has a Scarlet MX that we ordered an hour after it was announced. With Jarred saying things like "you seriously need to have a Dragon before NAB" (I know that's not exact), it makes any of us wonder and WANT to upgrade if we hadn't already! I get it, I really do... because I wanted to pay the $9500 to Dragonize my Scarlet... but I didn't.

I don't blame RED or anyone for building up the excitement, because it sure is fun! I also realize that nobody is making me upgrade. It's every single persons choice. I basically thought... would having a Dragon sensor cause me to lose work that I currently get, or reduce the chances of me getting new work? For us, the Dragon sensor wouldn't have any effect. We do technical / service / how-to videos for the most part. I would LOVE to have a Dragon sensor, don't get me wrong! But it simply wasn't necessary.

Yes, the Dragon sensor is better in so many ways... but not having it isn't somehow going to make my MX sensor worse. Our Scarlet MX makes beautiful images, and it will continue to do so. Or at least until I can't contain my excitement and buy a Weapon...

 

[Clayton Taylor]

Adam, one thing to consider is how a lot of redusers make their money.
For those of us, like myself, producing our own independent films/series, what you said applies. We have complete control over what gear we choose and how to make it look as best as we can. Our competition is other films/series, not other cinematographers or rental houses.

I fall in Akin's group.

 

[Hugh Scully]

Me too, I fall into Akin's group now and do not expect to make money with the camera as a rental, except when I'm with it. I just bought a new Scarlet Dragon instead of a used MX. I have shot with the Scarlet MX which is fantastic but the Dragon skin tones, DR, and highlight handling is so much greater. I was sharing emails with a colorist I know who helped me go this way. It was a lot more money for me so I'm tapped. The Weapon upgrade is not in my wheelhouse. This is, by a mile, the finest imagery I've ever achieved with any camera I've ever owned to date.

However, Dragon is the latest sensor and there may be future sensor upgrades to which Dragon owners will all be eligible. Right? or am I missing something? Weapon is the top of the line. I see how that may change the marketplace for Epic Dragon owners competing with rental houses but I don't see how that is Red's problem, necessarily.

 

[Derek Olson]

This is the message I wanted from Jim:

"Dear Red owner: Your camera is worth every penny you paid for it. It's a collector's item and only the best DPs will ever have owned one. However, upgrading costs $20k."

See what I did there. I didn't make you feel like you lost anything, only that you can upgrade if you want. People get the sense that they are being left behind, but Dragon hasn't even found it's legs yet. Its peak popularity will likely be a year or two from now when the slow moving gears in producers' minds figure out what a stellar system it is. (and hard drive space gets cheaper)

That being said, the only reason I would even want the Weapon is because it's not as heavy. Everything else is who cares. 2k prores, what? Can't I do that with a Ninja Star? Fan noise? Doesn't bother me. I have the new fan and it's fine. Less hot? Personally, I like having a sizzling hot frying pan next to my head when I operate. Keeps me in the game. Anything else I'm missing? If you got a Dragon, you just have the heavier weapon. Enjoy owning the best camera ever invented, the hotter and heavier version.

Also, Weapon shouldn't hurt your ability to get work because clients don't care how heavy your camera is, they are going to choose Epic over Weapon 9 times out of 10, because it's cheaper and it does the same thing! Scarlett Dragon gets even more play. And as for Carbon Fiber VV, sure, it's cool, so is the Alexa 65, but I sure as heck don't need it.

 

[ignition]

So many moot points IMO. Buy the camera you need, for the work you're doing, and how well it supports your commercial and creative objectives.

Most arguments and complaints seem to bias towards one or the other. It's either a creative complex on how much more a camera should do or the 'image quality' etc. as if price is no object at all and this latest incarnation doesn't push the envelope enough .. or it's a commercial complaint around how something is unreasonably priced and you don't see the "value" in raw dollar terms and how many of the features you're expected to pay for aren't important to YOU.

Let's be clear - value is a combination of commercial + creative. Unless you're fortunate enough to be loaded with cash and can just do the 'creative at all expense'. Or you're so commercially driven, it probably makes sense to shoot 4K based on price and Panasonic DH4's and BMCC Ursula's are the wise choice.

Going back to the original post in this thread - if you "put money down" for a Dragon not because it was a wise investment but because you expected some kind of heavily discounted upgrade path, I think the mistake is yours for buying a camera available right then and there that only had value to you in terms of that future expectation. Dragon is a great camera that opens up countless commercial and creative opportunities. That is what should have driven your purchasing decision. You set yourself up for disappointment and it very much feels like you're crying "snake oil salesmen" as a result, which I strongly oppose on the grounds herein.

Find the intersect between your commercial and creative ambitions, and you'll make the right choice of camera. And make the right choices around whether to upgrade to Weapon, etc.

We decided to go CF 6K weapon because ProRes has commercial benefits to us, and a lighter body has creative benefits (aerial). The decision was made on the rationale of how we could benefit from it.

 

[ignition]

Just read that "This is the message I wanted from Jim" post... is it just me, or is this something akin to vocally objecting like "this is a uselessly incremental update of the iPhone 4 with this 4S crap" and demanding Steve Jobs personally respond to their gripes on why the latest incarnation fails to meet their particular expectations? And then you go and draw comparisons to competing products, as if you aren't entirely of your own free will to go there if it's so much better for you.

I'm not putting Jim and Steve into the same boat per se. I just don't get why people become so personal about entirely optional things.

 

[David Franjic]

I can completely understand why some RED owners might feel a little frustrated or annoyed by what has happened here. In a nutshell RED drove a last minute push to have MX owners upgrade to the Dragon sensor. The marketing for this push was based on a fear of missing out on future upgrades- essentially to stay within the RED upgrade path you had to upgrade to the Dragon sensor and do it soon! For Scarlet MX owners (like myself) the obvious path was to the Scarlet Dragon, a $10000 upgrade. Now if someone who was scraping around for $10000 to make the upgrade in time (who probably wouldn't have done it otherwise) and is then told post NAB that their recent investment will only be recognised for half of what they just paid, then yeah I think they have every right to be pissed off. To further add salt to the wounds the next step in the upgrade process involves them forking out a substantial more amount of money, an amount that is likely going to be well beyond the reach of many Scarlet owners.

I was fortunate that I chose not to rush in to the upgrade. I really made my decision about six months ago when RED decided they would up their price to the Dragon upgrades post Christmas by $3000. Why aging technology was becoming more expensive over time made no sense to me and it became obvious it was just a push to try and increase Dragon upgrade volumes. When the price came down again (and has since gone up again) I made a firm decision that I wasn't going to let any camera manufacturer dictate when I would upgrade or invest in new equipment. Fortunately perhaps, my Scarlet MX has been way to busy to send off for an upgrade anyway, so that completely killed off any temptation.

I do definitely feel for those who did shell out for the upgrade only to realise that their recent investment counts for little towards the next step in the upgrade path. By my math, and correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't the most affordable path for someone with a Scarlet MX such as myself be best off to avoid any upgrade path and just buy a Weapon new? If this is the case then those who did rush into a Dragon upgrade might feel a little raw.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

This may be slightly off topic, so I apologize if it is. Do you think RED will every open up their market into the shootable system for $8-12K range. I love that RED has a specific pro market and delivers the types of products they deliver. Just curious how everyone would be interested in a lower line, LOG based camera, to clean the floor in the lower markets.

I would love to see a camera that competes directly with the FS-7 and the BMD cams.

 

[Jacob Callaghan]

This may be slightly off topic, so I apologize if it is. Do you think RED will every open up their market into the shootable system for $8-12K range. I love that RED has a specific pro market and delivers the types of products they deliver. Just curious how everyone would be interested in a lower line, LOG based camera, to clean the floor in the lower markets.

I would love to see a camera that competes directly with the FS-7 and the BMD cams.

Could you not get a scarlet in the 12k price range? The thing about RED is they are so ahead of its time that there scarlet mx is direct competition with the others. Granite it does not have high fps like the fs7 but the image is great!

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Could you not get a scarlet in the 12k price range? The thing about RED is they are so ahead of its time that there scarlet mx is direct competition with the others. Granite it does not have high fps like the fs7 but the image is great!

Considering the elements to make it shootable for a full day...no you can not get a Scarlet for $12K

When I bought mine, I think I ended up near the $20K mark to get everything needed for a full day of easy shooting.

 

[M.Halsell]

This may be slightly off topic, so I apologize if it is. Do you think RED will every open up their market into the shootable system for $8-12K range. I love that RED has a specific pro market and delivers the types of products they deliver. Just curious how everyone would be interested in a lower line, LOG based camera, to clean the floor in the lower markets.

I would love to see a camera that competes directly with the FS-7 and the BMD cams.

The explicit answer is No. The mathematical formula when buying RED gear is: body cost + essential accessories = shooting kit. At minimum a $15K buy-in is required. But after Weapon releases generally, the buy-in may be higher. The Scarlet was a late arrival, solid camera, but it was a gateway to the EPIC. The modules were easily transferable down the road en route to purchasing an EPIC and later Dragon. Whats messing with most peoples head is the WEAPON platform is not compatible with a significant portion of the accessory expenditure.

So RED competitors in that space need not worry as probably RED has no interest in that market space. RED cameras are a very finite and specific purchase. And a successful and knowledgeable RED ownership requires a solid cliente base that is producing a solid cashflow. Key accessories are expensive & warranties are lower than other camera manufacturers. So a again a solid camera related cash flow is essential to keep pace with RED ownership.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Thats pretty much what I think as well. Probably not going to happen...though I would love to see a small 2.5 - 3K camera, low light camera, with log capability and RED color science for around $8K. Probably not gonna happen though.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I debated for a long time whether to write this or not but decided to go ahead. My dad had a saying, "Do the best you can with what you have."

I just want to say that with all the Weapon news these past couple days I'm kinda shocked at some of the responses here. So many people are upset because of the price break for Weapon. Just think about the last part of that sentence for a moment. I may lose a lot of credibility after saying this but I love this forum and I'm so happy that many of you have taken time to answer questions I've had and are willing to let me chime in on things and I'm treated like one of the guys. Well guess what, I don't even own a Red. And maybe my view would be different if I did but it kinda shocks me how many people are ticked off at the whole Weapon thing.

Count your blessings guys. I'm still shooting on a Canon DSLR. Why? Partly because I have a full-time job and I'm working to grow my business on the weekends but also because Canon doesn't offer to let me trade in my 5 year old camera for a new one. No body does. People are acting like they are screwed now because of Weapon. You're not. From my perspective you all have the greatest thing going for you. You get to wake up every morning and fire up your Scarlet, or Epic, or even R1 and create amazing images. Weapon isn't even available right now and won't be for some time. Right now you still have the most cutting edge camera on the market. I'm super jealous of all of you and honestly it kinda rubs me the wrong way to hear so many people angry at Jarred and Jim for not offering "enough" trade in for the newest toys. You can't get that from Arri. You can't get it from BMD.

As I said, I'm not officially a member of the Red family, yet. But one day I promise I will be. Just try to think back to the day before you got your first Red and remember how excited you were. Be grateful that you have what you have and that Red STILL supports you. I'm not sure Canon supports me anymore nor could they care less.

When Weapon is released none of you guys are out of a job. You still get to make beautiful images. And you'll still be able to do it for many years to come. Look at what is STILL being produced with R1s.

All I'm trying to say is take a break, breathe for a minute and then look at your Epic sitting on your desk and say to yourself, "My God I have the greatest tool in the world at my disposal any time I want." And then remember the guys that are still scratching a clawing to get to where you are right now. Count your blessing. I'm completely jealous of you all.

I hope this doesn't discredit me too much from posting here.

I fully agree. I'd also add that Red can charge whatever they like for their products. They don't owe anybody a low price, they are not the unpaid servants of the low budget filmmaking community. If it is too expensive for your budget, or doesn't offer the benefits you personally want at that price, then don't buy it. You only have the right to complain if they mislead you about features, or charged your credit card more than they said they would. Here features are being clearly described, I have never heard of anyone having a credit card issue with Red., and so you can just take it or leave it like a grownup in a free market.

 

[Thomas Koch]

I'd like to point out that $5K of accessory credit or $5k worth of accessories is sort of a misnomer. remember when we got a $2k battery module. You couldn't give them away. How much of this you get $X worth of stuff, but isn't worth anything?

Now, looking at what you get, it all look useful. Except the base expander. Why aren't there two audio ports? why do they not have phantom? Where are the miniXLRs? Didn't anyone at RED talk to ANYONE about what they need in a camera?

Sorry, I'm venting a bit, but I think at this price I'm done with the upgrade program.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

@Thomas - I do believe that the $5K accessories "credit" is just that: you choose whatever accessories you want in the RED store. The included accessories in your package may indeed fall into the "I don't really want/need that" category and may or may not sell in the open market for the retail value.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This may be slightly off topic, so I apologize if it is. Do you think RED will every open up their market into the shootable system for $8-12K range. I love that RED has a specific pro market and delivers the types of products they deliver. Just curious how everyone would be interested in a lower line, LOG based camera, to clean the floor in the lower markets.

I would love to see a camera that competes directly with the FS-7 and the BMD cams.

That's not their market, and it is a flooded market with tiny margins. I don't see why they would do that.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

I fully agree. I'd also add that Red can charge whatever they like for their products. They don't owe anybody a low price, they are not the unpaid servants of the low budget filmmaking community. If it is too expensive for your budget, or doesn't offer the benefits you personally want at that price, then don't buy it. You only have the right to complain if they mislead you about features, or charged your credit card more than they said they would. Here features are being clearly described, I have never heard of anyone having a credit card issue with Red., and so you can just take it or leave it like a grownup in a free market.

You are right. It’s their business not ours, but the upgrade path has been a cornerstone of their marketing and modus operandi since day one with Obsolescence Obsolete as one of their catch phrases. For those of us that have been upgrading at every step -- the most recent upgrade to “top of the line” (which is what we bought into with Red One for circa $17000.00) is in the several tens of thousands of dollars. I think some will find that disingenuous. I do understand they are running a business and they must capitalize but I understand the disappointment as well.