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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I am very disappointed by RED....

I'm disappointed too. But not with Red. And not because I couldn't make more money.

There is something just so cool in being in at the beginning of something you know is going to be great. As I watch the progress of the M's I feel the thrill of the early adopter slipping farther away. But my business being what it is, it's very hard to justify the additional cost of the M when I have a perfect, working R1MX and an Epic on the way "soon." That's my choice.

In a perfect world, I'd have taken delivery of the 172nd Epic on the planet. What a thrill that would have been! But it's not a perfect world. There are bugs and earthquakes and unforeseen engineering problems and tsunamis. That's life. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

But as I watch the Epic-Ms' progress, (I got to handle one last week) I'm thrilled at what Red has done in the face of pretty extraordinary challenges, and grateful that Red has maintained the generous upgrade offer for the R1 stages. I'll take delivery of my Epic soon enough, and the thrill will be only slightly diminished by the fact that there are more than 172 of them in the world.
 
In some ways, this is kind of going as planned - other than the dates being off. Epic-M is Stage 1, tattoo, whatever you want to call it. It has expanded way beyond the original plan, yes. But the idea was to hand build some cameras, which you could buy at a premium and be part of the testing ground. Originally the people would be hand-picked by RED based on whether they fit the criteria of people they wanted involved with that stage. In other words, people who get it. I'm not sure what the criteria is now, but it seems like a lot of the people we see stepping up are probably the type of people they were thinking of originally. Those customers know the camera isn't perfect yet, it's still being tweaked and fine-tuned in firmware. But they are out there using it in real-world applications, and getting some really great results, which is also important from RED's perspective. I admit, the plan has changed a bit, but RED is a business and they need to balance doing what's right for the company along with what's right for the customers. Overall, I think they have always done a very good job with that.

As an Epic-X customer, in particular Stage 2 and 3, do you have a right to be disappointed? Sure. Whether it's Japan, or any other reason, it's not possible to get an Epic yet unless you go M. I sit here watching Epic footage everyday, and it makes me hungrier and hungrier for this camera. The images are incredible. I love my R1, but these images are different, despite the same sensor. It simply is a more pleasing image. All of the great production value helps too. I'm in Stage 3. I don't even know what the details of that stage will be. But rather than being disappointed, I'm looking at it as an opportunity to save money, and continue researching what the best options will be when the time comes. In the meantime, R1 ain't too shabby. RED ONE was different when it came to being the first ones in. That camera was so different than anything else available at he time, that being in early really did matter. That might be happening with Epic too, but I don't think in the same way from what I can tell. In my opinion, it's probably not wise to buy this camera to be the first. Better to have a client base that needs/wants it and is willing to pay for it.

RED, the company, may not be everybody's cup of tea. Some people just don't like the way they do business. As customers though, we have to remember that it's important that RED makes money. If they don't, it doesn't matter how much personal wealth Jim has, at some point it just won't make sense to keep it going. So we should root for them to turn a profit. As they grow, yes, it may be tougher for them to have that easy access relationship with the customer base, but I haven't seen it drop off that much compared to the early days. They still relate to the "little guys". Okay, maybe Jarred's a bit tougher to get a hold of these days, but the guy also doesn't sleep because he's running a studio and all the other stuff he does there, so got to cut them some slack. The day they become Sony or maybe even Apple (easy target right now), then maybe you will need to worry. Right now, I still think their first priority is making great cameras for guys like us, and whoever else buys into what they are doing. Just so happens that Hollywood has started to buy in as well.
 
There just aren't that many companies like RED. Natural disasters in Japan were unpredictable, but RED really does have outstanding communication with their customers, which can clear be seen in these forums.
 
I'm surprised

I'm surprised

I don't understand why anyone would be upset over paying 1,000 or so dollars and only getting a little machined piece of metal with their future camera number on it. I mean, come on, you prob got a little piece of metal for your deposit and your name is on the list. What more do you want? Just look at your little piece of metal with your camera number on it when ever it bothers you.
 
I don't think his problem is with the upgrade path, or the pricing of the Epic-X, it is the size of the rollout of the Epic-M/Tattoo program.

When you announced some prototype cameras for an exclusive group of people, he probably thought you would be giving them to 20-50 people. The OffHollywood/Soderbergh types.

If you wanted to keep your 'non-M buying' early adopters happy (and you have done very well at looking after them with the upgrade program - which is unprecedented) you should of stopped at around 50 Epic-M's.

I guess you made a business decision - more people trialing the M and giving the option for people to actually shoot the camera - was a better move than making sure early M's didn't interfere with original low serial numbers exclusivity.

In truth, I think the OP made his entire business decision for Epic-X's from a wrong stance. If the M's were stopped at a very small rollout, he would of had exclusivity in his market for about 2 weeks, as, with any luck, the production of Epic-X's will be orders of magnitude higher than Red One's. No more having the market to yourself for 6 months.

It is the danger of listening to a company that gives you its roadmap and you basing your business decisions on it.

You should know: 'Everything is subject to change!'

My 2 pence worth.
 
Gary Jones said:
When you announced some prototype cameras for an exclusive group of people, he probably thought you would be giving them to 20-50 people. The OffHollywood/Soderbergh types.

If you wanted to keep your 'non-M buying' early adopters happy (and you have done very well at looking after them with the upgrade program - which is unprecedented) you should of stopped at around 50 Epic-M's.

My 2 pence worth.
Click to expand...

I think that was RED's plan as well. And then the Tsunami...
 
Gary Jones said:
When you announced some prototype cameras for an exclusive group of people, he probably thought you would be giving them to 20-50 people. The OffHollywood/Soderbergh types.
Click to expand...

That was the original plan... but life happened. Things changed. But it was, and still is, completely left in our customers hands to make the decision to buy a Epic-M or wait for an Epic-X.

It doesn't affect any stages or priority lines for Epic-X. It is a completely optional independent program that was extended by request of the customers.

We are quickly coming to a point where Epic-M's are getting too expensive to make and sell for the price we are selling them for. We are holding our breath waiting for Epic-X just like you.

I know I keep bringing up the "you guys are family bit".. but it really is true.

If you took a step back from your disappointment and gave it another look, I hope you can realize some of the things we are doing for you guys and the generosity we are extending a business would never do in a million years.. but a brother or sister or father or son would do in a nano-second.... maybe that is getting lost along the way somewhere.
 
As a low serial number owner (#63), I understand the frustration, we too thought we'd be the first in the area with an Epic, but now there are two Epic-Ms around, and I cringe every time another one goes out into the wild (stupid jealousy!). Had we known the delay would be so long we also may have considered paying extra for M but we kept thinking X was right around the corner.

That being said, I KNOW RED is doing everything they can to get X's on the market, and I hold no ill feelings about the way things have played out. Especially when I remember how insane it was of RED to give us 100% credit of our RED One toward the purchase of an Epic... I mean seriously, who does that? [Edit: 'Family' would be the answer.]
 
Jarred Land said:
That was the original plan... but life happened. Things changed. But it was, and still is, completely left in our customers hands to make the decision to buy a Epic-M or wait for an Epic-X.

It doesn't affect any stages or priority lines for Epic-X. It is a completely optional independent program that was extended by request of the customers.

We are quickly coming to a point where Epic-M's are getting too expensive to make and sell for the price we are selling them for. We are holding our breath waiting for Epic-X just like you.

I know I keep bringing up the "you guys are family bit".. but it really is true.

If you took a step back from your disappointment and gave it another look, I hope you can realize some of the things we are doing for you guys and the generosity we are extending a business would never do in a million years.. but a brother or sister or father or son would do in a nano-second.... maybe that is getting lost along the way somewhere.
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OI try to stay out of this type of discussion, out of the fear that some one will immediately label me, with the "Easy to say for you, you got not one but two Epic M thanks to your alliance with Gibby"

BUt the truth is that I for one really does see what an insanely generous company RED really is, I know almost every single one of them by name and shake hands with
them so many times of over the 4 years adventure I can't even recall them, this guys really are like family to me, and I will never tire to show my gratitude to them exposing the high quality products that they make,
and showcasing that they care for what they do, cause they are family and cause they are also the end users just like I ma... ;)

Hope that soon all of this remains in the past as I know EPIC-X is about to hit the streets big time and in Big quantities, so brace yourselves, and start writing up the last scenes of your stories, EPIC-X is coming... ;)
 
Two? Jeremy.. More like eight in SLC. You forgot Godfrey's 6 EPICs on Nitro. Nine in Utah if you count Gibby's.

I can relate to the OPs frustration, though. I thought the same thing. "Ahh.. a hundred EPIC-M's?.. not a big deal." But now, every time I turn around someone else has one, simply because they had some money, and an "inside track".. I realise RED is doing their best to get the word out, generate positive feedback, and flesh out the bugs and feature set. But given what Jarred says, and that RED has clearly succeeded in their objectives, maybe it's best to call Epic-M done until the X's start rolling.

Not to highjack the thread, but I'm actually a bit more frustrated with the still-fluid Epic-X accessory package. I would *REALLY* like to know what I can expect with my EPIC-X, so I can start planning what else I will need to buy to kit it properly. There has been so much speculation and rumor about pricing changes for the SSD module, or the Redmote being dropped, etc, without any official statement from RED, that it's becoming frustrating. If RED is still hopeful to have X's shipping by summer.. the time is now to solidify what will actually be shipping, and let the rest of of know.
 
Hey Jarred, I feel you man - and to the OP, I really think you are missing the point radically. Red's practices of pricing, upgrades, trade-ins, communication, and more are simply UNHEARD OF, and the deposits are not designed to tie up anyone's cash or even fund the projects in advance ... it's just that people don't take things seriously until they put money down. Getting a reservation and taking a VERY valuable place in line would be meaningless without one.

It ensures you're genuinely COMMITTED to the camera they are building for you. I mean ... would you do a rental or a project with ZERO $$ upfront? No way! I sure wouldn't, because those who value something are willing to put their money where there mouth is.

In terms of the Epic-M - look at what another company would comparatively charge for such a camera. We're talking well over $100,000 when you include all the accessories. Maybe more! They are NOT marketing this up a lot or making lots of money, I'm willing to bet when you factor both the costs of the camera PLUS the expenses of running the company ... sales of Epic-M do not even cover everything.

So why keep making and selling them? Because 1) getting them out into the wild and used on big feature films as well as TV, commercials and other professional projects helps move the entire Epic project forward. Not just for Red - but for EVERYONE. Remember that Red is a feedback-driven company that updates firmware way more rapidly than other camera co .... and 2) Red understands that there are some who sooooo want/need an Epic right now - and because of the delays in parts/production - this is the fairest way to get them into customers hands UNTIL they can deliver on the original and extremely generous offer Stage 2/3 offer for previous owners.

I think it was a brilliant solution and one that we have all benefited from. (Yes especially those of us waiting for Stages).

You can question Red's ability to meet dates or even perhaps their managing of production/stock (especially before the badass new Oakley guy came in) ... yet you absolutely CANNOT question their integrity, fairness, or care for their customers. PERIOD.

Have a nice day guys :)
 
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I can understand the frustration of having a low serial number but seeing someone with a very high one (or even none) get a camera first just because they opted for -M instead of -X, but I don't understand blaming Red for this situation which seems to be completely out of their control.
 
Don't forget how generous Red has been:


1. Titanium "R"!

2. $2,500 credit for accessories.

3. After a few complaints about the finish on some of the cast parts, we were allowed to trade in our used accessories for new ones, with a new finish.

4. Free CF module upgrade and firmware update for 16GB cards. Free Red Drive firmware update and 6' Red Drive cable replacement.

5. MX sensor upgrade with $1,250 credit if you go Epic-X Stage 2.

6. Epic-X Stage 2 - The best deal ever! $8,500 credit + around $6k worth of free accessories!
 
Tim Morton said:
They can't make the cameras without all the parts. They're missing 18 of the 18,000. It has been stated many times on this forum.

If you think that these delays are not based on the Japan disaster and limited stock of parts, why do you think that they are sending out incomplete EPIC-M kits?

I'm sorry but it is clear to me that Red want their cameras shipping out just as much if not more than we do, and I can see many holes in your theory.
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Tim,

Levan does bring up a good point which has not been explicitly addressed on this forum - one which you might have missed.

First, the Epic M that was in Houston was a "fully functional" camera. Granted, some of the "features" might not have been enabled, and the handle battery may not have been with the camera, etc....but by and large, Ketch has an awesome piece of equipment in his luggage. We could shoot nearly 95% of the work we do with that existing M configuration.

Question: Are the 18 "japan-sourced" parts currently being hand-machined in the US, and being used for M production to get those 700 some odd cameras out in the field...?

My understanding is yes (from Jim's prior posts). If true, then the question is around economics of hand-machining vs. foreign sourced for the M program.

I read Levan's point that he is disappointed that Jim chose to make a "new" program, M, rather than offer a "machined premium" upcharge to the folks in Stage 1. Granted, I think the machined part cost differential should be small - if not, I know plenty of "metal benders" that would love to bid the work.

Point is, Jim could have made the Stage 1 rollout align with the interest of the "early adopters", but he chose otherwise (his prerogative).

We don't have a horse in this race (we are renting our Reds), but Levan does bring up a good point of view...one which I imagine is shared by many Stage 1 individuals.
 
It is hard way!
I was angry much more then you after 3 years of waiting but...
We have to be patient
RED just do everything they can, They can't give you the camera now, but only they can give you the best camera in the world in 4-5 month it is a very shot period! So don't press the RED, give them you hope and this hope will be rewarded!
If be exclusive is you the best aim it is not good aim! Monopoly is not good! There will not be a lot of Epics - a few Epics for a city it is very little!
If not RED we still shoot for only HD home cameras or some of us buy ARRI for 100K dollars!
We need only 4-5 month!
 
Jack Cooper said:
Question: Are the 18 "japan-sourced" parts currently being hand-machined in the US, and being used for M production to get those 700 some odd cameras out in the field...?

My understanding is yes (from Jim's prior posts). If true, then the question is around economics of hand-machining vs. foreign sourced for the M program.
Click to expand...

The answer is no. The 18 parts are not parts you can just machine. They are probably mostly electronic parts that go onto circuit boards inside the camera.

The reason the outer parts are being machined is because there are not enough of the inner parts to justify ramping up the full production line of cast parts. At least this is how I understand it. But I could be completely wrong....
 
The OP makes sense from a "I bought a RED to rent it early and at high prices to recoup my investment" strategy. Early adopters made BANK with their RED ONE.

Hell, we made ALL OF OUR RED ONE AND EPIC PURCHASES from one single RED ONE after it was upgraded to M-X.

I would rather wait 6 more months and get a COMPLETE PACKAGE... then deal with what M customers have to deal with... waiting weeks for a Side Handle and Red mote. Having a battery
in my cargo shorts pocket... etc.

PLEASE DELAY MORE UNTIL THE X CAN SHIP WITH EVERYTHING is my advice... and by the time the X ships. A LOT of the not enabled features on M.. WILL BE ENABLED.

As for the M program... It made total sense to me that RED Sold hundreds to people like Jackson and Cameron, etc... thats SMART business... but I have to admit I dont
understand why software developers and casual users with $58K are getting M's... that is a bit of a head scratcher. especially if Jarred said the margins are so thin.

We are nearing 1000 M in the wild, and that will definitely affect rentals in some markets... but as there are NO M's in Portland yet... and a TV show I was going to buyone for went with a 5D

Im perfectly content waiting for the 2 X's that I paid a $25K PREMIUM FOR... to be among the first. Did you hear that OP? I PAID BIG BUCKS TO JUMP THE LINE>..

and I was wrong... its a choice I made... but thankfully, having those early MX cameras paid for my "mistake".

I AGAIN WILL SAY... PLEASE DELAY THE EPIC -X UNTIL ALL PARTS ARE AVAILABLE IN THE PACKAGE... thanks!
 
An Epic M as offered is only 13,000 more tan an Epic-X with the same configuration. That why people are buying 2-3 each. As a rental operation I would buy a hand built Epic-M. Easier to fix. Don't be mad. It is not a scam, they really can't make those camera's. they are actually loosing 100's of thousands of dollars as their manufacturing lines sit idle. Believe me when I say this, "THE EPIC-M IS AN AWESOME CAMERA". I have not operated it personally myself, but I learnt a hand on a recent music vid shoot. Less time for set ups, less lights, tons more shots. I mean they shot in the middle of Sunset blvd early sunday. Cops passed by thinking it was a DSLR. They told them to be careful of on coming traffic. Thats it. Passers by just ignore you when you don't traditional looking camera. Amazing.

Have patience my friend, don't get riled by the other posters against you. I promise you when you get your cameras, exclusive or not you will get tons and tons of renters,. Its the do everything camera.
 
Jarred Land said:
I know I keep bringing up the "you guys are family bit".. but it really is true.

If you took a step back from your disappointment and gave it another look, I hope you can realize some of the things we are doing for you guys and the generosity we are extending a business would never do in a million years.. but a brother or sister or father or son would do in a nano-second.... maybe that is getting lost along the way somewhere.
Click to expand...


This is something very special Jared! The way that you guys are giving, and the community/family, that you are building is a beautiful thing, thanks!!!
 
I think RED is one of the most unique companies in the world today. I have never experienced this level of honesty, transparency and such a genuine personal experience than I have with any other company that I've done business with. Sometimes it gets them in trouble, like the complaint in this forum. But when you step back and look at the whole RED philosophy and consider what they've had to face when engineering the EPIC, you smile and applaud.
 
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