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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I am very disappointed by RED....

Hi,
I think RED is a company which is very much clear to their clients and update them on developments. The number of EPIC - M delivered is more than 700 and this we are able to make out from the 'EPIC-M owners' thread.I dont think we would have know the numbers had RED not started the EPIC-M owners thread .
Further RED is not an NGO . They are also here to do business and have the right to make money....and anyway selling thounds of EPIC-X will give them more money than hundreds of EPIC-M....and if you are a rental house then you whould go for am EPIC-M as we have done(maybe a month delayed).
Harcharan
 
Levan Bakhia said:
...

...And I believe that believing and trusting them paid off when I got the camera and was exclusive owner for at least 6 month in the region. It paid off when Red announced that Epics where coming, and I knew that I was again to keep my reservation number and the priority of having one of the first cameras in the world.

And now I feel a bit angry, because with having so many Epic-Ms out there, you forgot that we, those who believed in you many years ago, and lend you money, that helped you on your R&D, those who have been loyal and have been the first people in the world to advocate your camera, those who have had to talk people for you and explain them why the camera is so special, when nobody believed in it, I believe those of us are the most important customers of yours, and I think coming up with a stage of EPIC-M just for the reason to MAKE MORE MONEY, is making my reservation absolute, it looses any sense, the reason I want to be ahead, is to be the first, to have the exclusivity, which I don't have, anyone who has double the money I am willing to pay for it, can have the camera ahead of me, so I am no more a loyal customer of red, and yes, I can not change anything here, I will keep waiting and when the cameras will be out I will get my camera, red will still keep and use my reservation money for as long as they want and that's the way it it and I have to cope with it.

But I am just saying that this is not cool, I just want to remind you that there are at least 700 people who made reservations on a very very early stage, $1000 each, total of $7,000,000, you used this money to develop the camera, and I feel like the production is delayed on purpose not in favor of these 700.
Click to expand...
Levan, You (we) are still special to RED. I think we need to remember this first and foremost. But I also think RED has gotten too big to continue the same "special relationship" they once had with early adopters. Not only that, but even if they could logistically treat early adopters favorably in some way, where do you draw the line on who was an early adopter? With your camera number, you would certainly be earlier than me with a number in the 1000s. But the camera(s) I put down a deposit for was only a little longer wait than yours. Oh, and you got those freebies with yours that I just missed out on.

What I'm trying to say is, if you save someone's life, they owe you a saving your life back. But once they've saved your life in return, they are no longer obligated to continue saving your life over and over. Still, this company has treated the early believers as though we somehow deserved multiple-life guarding. I personally feel after looking back on what I've received for choosing RED as soon as I could scrape together the deposits, more than balances the books... and in my favor. I'm not used to being treated this well.
 
Curran Giddens said:
The answer is no. The 18 parts are not parts you can just machine. They are probably mostly electronic parts that go onto circuit boards inside the camera.

The reason the outer parts are being machined is because there are not enough of the inner parts to justify ramping up the full production line of cast parts. At least this is how I understand it. But I could be completely wrong....
Click to expand...

Curran...

Then that doesn't make sense. Those 18 parts are still a part of the M camera...so by definition, they are still being produced, either in-mass or "hand made". Your point in the second sentence illustrates the decision Jim made perfectly. You could still have 700+ stage 1 cameras out to early Red adopters.
 
Jack Cooper said:
Curran...

Then that doesn't make sense. Those 18 parts are still a part of the M camera...so by definition, they are still being produced, either in-mass or "hand made". Your point in the second sentence illustrates the decision Jim made perfectly. You could still have 700+ stage 1 cameras out to early Red adopters.
Click to expand...

Don't confuse generosity and awsome service with a scam. As red have said over and over Epic-m cost more because of higher part price and a small scale prodiction line. There are thousands and thousands of epic-x to be made. This is really an internal RED issue, and I don't know why it's even debated here.

RED make awesome cameras and are worth waiting for!
 
Jack Cooper said:
Curran...

Then that doesn't make sense. Those 18 parts are still a part of the M camera...so by definition, they are still being produced, either in-mass or "hand made". Your point in the second sentence illustrates the decision Jim made perfectly. You could still have 700+ stage 1 cameras out to early Red adopters.
Click to expand...


It does make sense. A major part of the cost of the Ms over the Xs is the cost of sourcing components (the 18 in particular) is exceptionally higher when getting the low quantities they are taking delivery of. The problem though is that many of these components are used in many other products and so a bidding war of sorts seems to have broken out in the electronics manufacturing in an attempt to source these important parts that are currently only available in smaller quantities until these situation in northern Japan improves. Jarred in this thread has alluded to the fact the parts are getting even more expensive and so there will probably be a price hike on the M in the (near?) future.
 
The only thing worry about that the OP poses is the transition from Epic M to Epic X. I just got my M confirmation email, and I'd hate to take delivery of the M in a month or so, only to have the X rolled out a few days or weeks later. That would leave NO way of recouping the additional cost of the M. So I wonder if there will be a true cutoff point for the M, so that there can be a fair and effecient trasition to the X...?
 
Elsie N said:
Levan, You (we) are still special to RED. I think we need to remember this first and foremost. But I also think RED has gotten too big to continue the same "special relationship" they once had with early adopters. Not only that, but even if they could logistically treat early adopters favorably in some way, where do you draw the line on who was an early adopter? With your camera number, you would certainly be earlier than me with a number in the 1000s. But the camera(s) I put down a deposit for was only a little longer wait than yours. Oh, and you got those freebies with yours that I just missed out on.

What I'm trying to say is, if you save someone's life, they owe you a saving your life back. But once they've saved your life in return, they are no longer obligated to continue saving your life over and over. Still, this company has treated the early believers as though we somehow deserved multiple-life guarding. I personally feel after looking back on what I've received for choosing RED as soon as I could scrape together the deposits, more than balances the books... and in my favor. I'm not used to being treated this well.
Click to expand...

When I saw how many Epics Ms Cameron bought, it seemed clear the Epic wouldn't be here for 'the masses' for some time to some.
 
Samual Murman said:
When I saw how many Epics Ms Cameron bought, it seemed clear the Epic wouldn't be here for 'the masses' for some time to some.
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Yes, I agree that an order that large certainly slowed down delivery of the "M" for smaller shops wanting to order one. But I consider the X camera the one that will be produced for the masses, and the high-end M handmade production line is a completely different product, although they are essentially the same camera. I fear the X camera is doomed to snooze until parts are available at a reasonable price.
 
A lot of M owners low SNr are still waiting their camera and other like Laforest, who comes from nowhere (in the RED world), allready has his...

As of today, I'm happy to be a RED renter rather than a RED owner.

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
A lot of M owners low SNr are still waiting their camera and other like Laforest, who comes from nowhere (in the RED world), allready has his...

As of today, I'm happy to be a RED renter rather a RED owner.

Pat
Click to expand...

Hi Patrick, thought, you have an M ;-) Yes, it's really hard to wait in the first line for an X ;-)
 
Elsie N said:
Yes, I agree that an order that large certainly slowed down delivery of the "M" for smaller shops wanting to order one. But I consider the X camera the one that will be produced for the masses, and the high-end M handmade production line is a completely different product, although they are essentially the same camera. I fear the X camera is doomed to snooze until parts are available at a reasonable price.
Click to expand...

What I mean to say is that Jim C is a very intelligent guy, as is lightstorm (have had a few lunches over there), and they're not going to be plunking down for that many Ms if the standard Epic is anywhere near around the corner. My take is that RED's business model has been altered, the path to profitability is clearer, and - reverse of Apple - it's not with the 'consumer.'
 
In all fairness to both sides, I'm on the list and would love a Epic the only thing holding me back is when the estimated shipment is. If the shipment is soon that's great.
But if later than Sept 2011 I'll buy the Epic M. (some one said why cant they take the 18 parts from the M's to the X's orders)
I love my Red and as a DOP camera operator it is the only camera I want on set. O I love my B Bobs :) Cliff
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Well... about the renting bull shit I just mentionned... I really would love to own one NOW!

Daniel, You diserve the SR-Nr 1 of the Epic-X!

Pat
Click to expand...

If I get one before you, you will have a free day to play ;-)
 
Samual Murman said:
What I mean to say is that Jim C is a very intelligent guy, as is lightstorm (have had a few lunches over there), and they're not going to be plunking down for that many Ms if the standard Epic is anywhere near around the corner. My take is that RED's business model has been altered, the path to profitability is clearer, and - reverse of Apple - it's not with the 'consumer.'
Click to expand...
You may be right in your assessment, but my take on Cameron buying 50 Ms at twice the price was based on the fact that even if the Epic X line is rolling out cameras, Cameron would have to wait until Stage 4 before he could buy Xcameras. The fact that the M line is a premium line and is a cash on the barrelhead kind of transaction, this gave him an opening to order in much earlier. Not only that but I think he may have taken into account that buying through the M program would cause fewer hard feelings among those lined up to buy through the Stage 4 offering that have been waiting so long for the chance to buy.

I may be affording him compassionate qualities he doesn't possess, but it's a possibility.

And yes, you are right that RED is no longer trying to be a consumer camera manufacturer. Jim stated some months ago that RED makes equipment for professionals.
 
Don't forget. Epic-M is still in the fine tuning phase with some annoying bugs...

We've heard on this forum that on months of big blockbusters shoot people didn't had any trouble with the camera. I personnally had 3 power peak shut down a day (on a 11 day shoot) wich consist of paralysing the camera and ofthen loosing the clip being recorded.

I personnally never experienced loosing shots with the RED ONE, even on build 12.

Just trying to tell you : waiting is only for your sake. :sarcasm:

Pat
 
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