I am very disappointed by RED....

[Levan Bakhia]

I guess it's fair for you to state your opinions. Yes, I am loyal to RED because they treat their customers the way they would want to be treated. I also don't see where they made a mistake by offering the EPIC-M when they had the opportunity to buy specific parts at a premium to then in turn sell at a premium. I'm not quite following you here.

Are you advocating RED to actually slow down with the delivery dates when it's finally possible to ramp production up? Hehe. THAT's a funny thought...

Well maybe mistake is not the right word, they don't make the mistakes, they make the business. What I believe is that they should have limited the number of EPIC-Ms, and not make it available. Then I would feel that they are also interested in moving to later stages. Now I see no reason why they would be motivated to go on a new stage, people still buy those Ms. And come on, I do hope that none of us believe that the premium it costs them to make Ms is extra $28000. It is business!!! as simple as that.

Any business does that, it is a well know marketing, you just bring your new product to market, sell for X amount of price for as long as you can, and when you see it is slowing down, then you update the price and go to a new stage. That is what RED is doing, but they should not forget the loyalty they have from us. That is all I say.

 

[Levan Bakhia]

no insults levan... sorry if anything came across that way. i just personally suggest you sleep on it, disassociate money with emotion, and appreciate what you have in life. good night guys, please don't make any messes.

no problem. Sleep well it is morning over here.

 

[Tim Morton]

noone ask you to argue or not, it is my opinion, and if you want to say yours please do so, but trust me you better of without insults....

Do you think this thread will be taken as an opinion or an insult to Red?
You accused them of already having the stock and keeping it under-wraps to sell a more expensive model, to take advantage of their customers. People are simply calling you out on it.

 

[Levan Bakhia]

Do you think this threat will be taken as an opinion or an insult to Red?
You accused them of already having the stock and keeping it under-wraps to sell a more expensive model, to take advantage of their customers. People are simply calling you out on it.

I am not accusing them... I am saying that I feel like that. As I said, stop selling Ms and then I will not believe the otherwise, and take as much time as they need.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

And come on, I do hope that none of us believe that the premium it costs them to make Ms is extra $28000. It is business!!! as simple as that.

The EPIC-M Package has about $45,000 of gear. $58,000 is less than 33% markup which covers the additional costs on RED's end and allows them to make somewhat of a profit (we ought not be upset that RED makes money on this to pay for the R&D work and just for them to exist)

The reason why it may sound like its a huge premium is because RED is already offering previous RED owners a steal of a deal if they opt in for a Stage 2 or 3 deal. In all other cases, regular people will still have to pay $28,000 for the EPIC brain only.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

Am I making any sense? Hopefully I'm not sounding like the blabbermouth I am...

 

[paulherrin]

i am going to sleep, but since i was a part of this initial conversation, i had to remind you guys... this is how it all started. the interest was too high for them to disappoint everyone with a longer wait, especially now considering supply issues (which are real, all the big companies are just now getting back towards normal). they have a bad reputation for not meeting deadlines... now at least they are getting something out the door and in the wild. i understand your frustrations man, and while it would be nice to have your reservation filled, the reality is you're going to have to either stick it out or fork up some cash. intricately hand-made electronics and machining is absurdly expensive. 58 is a good deal for that camera... they don't have a huge profit margin on that. with japan rebounding i have a feeling production epics are on the horizon...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?52240-Schedule-and-Machined-EPICs...

 

[Aaron Champion]

All I'm saying is I'd gladly pay 58,000 for an epic M. And when Epic x comes out I will find a way to pay the 28,000 for it. Im not complaining about how much I'll lose because I'm not the only dude with one. I'm thinking about the content I can create.

When I was a boy, I bought a Nikon 35mm SLR. It was the most special event for me because its made me who I am today. My parents went half in on it for me, they spent 400.00 and I spent 400.00 and you know what it seemed like SO much money but it didnt matter to me, i also never thought about all the other people who had the same camera. For me it was about the brave new world I was in, I had taken a step in the direction of the rest of my life. I loved that camera and shot more film than I can remember. It was about creating. The camera was just the middle man. Maybe you should put your mind set in a different direction. If I never got paid a day in my life, I'd be totally okay with it as long as I was doing what I love to do everyday. With my cameras, creating. Life isnt about money or the things it can do for you. Which is the real issue here. You wont make as much money. Change your mind set, and you'll find happieness. A kind money wont give you .

 

[Imran Farouk]

I don't see the issue? Not being a fan boy or anything but all these guys are doing is the same as what you did with the R1, you put your money where your beliefs were and supported them...

They haven't forgot that, so they gave you an awesome deal with the EPIC-X plus some gear to go with it and a discount in some ways...they are ushering people into the future of modular cameras after they realized R1 could only go so far...

That seems pretty awesome...cause there aren't exactly many companies doing that these days...I'd love if when Apple brought out a new Mac Pro I could give them my old one and get the new one and pay the difference (if there is any)...but that's just dreaming...

Sure they get a couple months extra but they have the cash and they can do that...it's still a beta cam in many ways since not ALL features are sorted...

RED isn't stepping on you and saying get lost, they are simply offering an alternative at a small premium for the cameras that they can get going, not to mention I'm sure their soaking up a bit of the cost on their end and making it up elsewhere since I think its clear, that a business runs on the money it makes...
To use the parts that are collected for the M that the premium may cover on the X's is just suicide with the discount given...

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

Even if they are making more on the M's than the X's, do you really think they'd rather be selling a few hundred cameras at $58K than thousands at $28K?

 

[Peter Moretti]

I hate to say it, but if I ran Red I'd probably kill Epic-X, Epic-S and Scarlet... and be very tempted to raise the price of Epic-M. Those decisions would be made not only to keep margins high but also to protect an already stretched support infrastructure from the new demands that would come along with a significantly expanded client base. I bet quite a few business people would have little problem with those decisions.

So be glad you have Jim and his crew running the show.

 

[Kalani Prince]

I'm definitely getting a Scarlet Fixed then an X as soon as humanly possible : )

 

[Deanan]

But I am just saying that this is not cool, I just want to remind you that there are at least 700 people who made reservations on a very very early stage, $1000 each, total of $7,000,000, you used this money to develop the camera, and I feel like the production is delayed on purpose not in favor of these 700.

You want a fantastic upgrade deal but for an Epic-M now that costs way more to make?
We can give you camera free and pay you to use it, because that's would we'd be doing.
It does not compute.

BTW, 700 people at $1000 = $700,000

 

[Jarred Land]

We have been over this a hundred times but lets try once more.

We make more money selling an EPIC-X than we do selling an EPIC-M. We pay up to 30x more for the parts right now in an EPIC-M because the parts are in incredibly high demand and in short supply. Plus we machine every Epic-M, Epic-X's are cast.

Trust me... EPIC-M is not a money making venture intended to screw you guys over.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

It is frustrating waiting this long Levan... especially when we thought we'd be the first ones with an Epic. With that said... I don't think RED is screwing us over "deliberately". We are left with no choice but to be more patient due to the situation. I was just thinking the other day I could afford an Epic-M if it was introduced last summer as a program. O' well... sometimes we place our bets and we lose. That's it... nothing more.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

We have been over this a hundred times but lets try once more.

We make more money selling an EPIC-X than we do selling an EPIC-M. We pay up to 30x more for the parts right now in an EPIC-M because the parts are in incredibly high demand and in short supply. Plus we machine every Epic-M, Epic-X's are cast.

Trust me... EPIC-M is not a money making venture intended to screw you guys over.

I know you've said this before.. This is the most straight, to the point, statement on it I've seen. Well done.

Jay

 

[George Butterfield]

... I feel like the production is delayed on purpose not in favor of these 700.

You're wrong. I can understand your frustration, but the simple truth has been on display for all to see and understand. I'm sure RED will give you your deposit back if you are crazy enough to ask for it. The EPIC-M is a good "test bed" for RED to ensure that EPIC-X is the best that it can be. Why not sit back and write a screenplay, cast it, and be ready to shoot when your EPIC-X arrives. Or, better yet, shoot something with your RED ONE.

You are one little (important) cog in the fantastic enterprise that is producing the EPIC, relax, enjoy the ride.

 

[George Butterfield]

Well, if I knew that it would be 6 month that epic-Ms would be exclusive I would buy it,

If you knew that Gold would be 5K/oz. in two years, what would you do? Seems like you want someone to hold your hand. (there ... I just gave you a free EPIC)

 

[Manuel G]

Dear Levan
I understand your disappointed but you are so lucky, you are in the line....don´t flame, you have the opportunity to adquire a Epic X maybe at the end of summer.
Look at me, I don´t have any RED camera I´m a new customer...this means that I´m at the end of the line to get a Epic-X/S and I don´t open flame thread
I´m wait here,visit three or five times this forum each day and I know that the moment arrive...maybe later o sooner

Here, there are a lot of RED users expect and wait the moment with patience.

Best regards

PD: I don´t speak English very well

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Well I am NOT disappointed in Red -far from it. What they've done in such a short time is amazing.

When I shot my last feature film 4 years ago I pushed my co-producer to shoot Red but they felt it was too early. So we shot F900R's. I had an amazing DOP in Paul Sorossy who understood that cameras limitations so it turned out.

Now I'm prepping my new feature and I have two Epics to shoot with and I couldn't be more excited because I have grand expectations (don't we all?)...and I believe this is the reason Red was created in the first place -to put the best technology in the hands of storytellers and artists, allowing us to take the shackles off our creativity and shoot with the same quality as the studios.

Point being -while we've paid the premium for 2 Epics, they're not meant to be a profit-maker...eventually I'm sure we will make back our investment, and then some.