Huge Weapon Mg Audio Issues

[Doug Beatty]

The Base Expander does not support line-level signal.
While you can work around it, it's definitely not designed to record professional audio, IMHO.

The fact line level wasn't deemed worthy enough include with stock weapon builds is troubling. Especially since an 1/8" input is rarely ever mic level only. From an end user standpoint, that seems impractical.

Especially when you consider the fact that the connectors don't lock. I would have hoped at least that could have been addressed with DSMC2 as well. It is nice to have internal mics, though, and ultimately it is up to you buying a module that checks off the most boxes for your audio tools at hand.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Yup. Three steps forward, two steps back.


I really can't believe that we regressed on the audio front, again.


So is this a Base Expander hardware limitation or could it be corrected in the future via firmware updates like it was on the Epic?

To not have an option to currently run line-level or 48v phantom power on the Weapon is super sucky.


PS Red Support is looking into the camera log file, re:internal mics, it's most likely an abnormality.

Milan, I believe what you are looking for is the Redvolt expander:
http://www.red.com/store/products/dsmc2-redvolt-expander

This should have line level in, Phantom power, etc.

The Base Expander is meant to be smaller, more low profile, and understandably doesn't have phantom power and is just mic level in. RED has been pretty transparent about this.

To keep these cameras small, users can opt to use the Base Expander, or Base I/O V Lock Expander.

But for those that want REAL AUDIO, then the sacrifice/trade-off is a slightly more expensive module that also takes up more real estate.

It's simply the reality of camera design. Real audio takes up real space.

The beauty of the DSMC2 platform is these modules make the cameras far more customizable - different modules literally can expand or contract not just the size of the camera, but what the camera can actually do.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I understand the general audio frustration with red 'w' but I do belive this is a communication issue more than a poor product issue... (Putting aside for a sec Milan's specific camera technical problems that hopefully Red can quickly solve)

Our weapons has better sound than our epics... We also realise that the base I/O is not the product for high end audio without a dual system. If you look at panavision's weapon I/O box they have kept the basic audio and put their efforts into video and power outs/ins

There is something very close to line level availble but it is at a consumer -10dbv line level not the level normally associate with balanced cable runs +4dbu. This is fine but needs to be clearly communicated!

If we can get a firmware fix that helps the levels adjustment to (take out another 2.3db) and also fix the glitch we get when recording ext audio to track 3and4 we would be fine...

Michael

 

[Milan Spasic]

Milan, I believe what you are looking for is the Redvolt expander:
http://www.red.com/store/products/dsmc2-redvolt-expander

This should have line level in, Phantom power, etc.

The Base Expander is meant to be smaller, more low profile, and understandably doesn't have phantom power and is just mic level in. RED has been pretty transparent about this.

To keep these cameras small, users can opt to use the Base Expander, or Base I/O V Lock Expander.

But for those that want REAL AUDIO, then the sacrifice/trade-off is a slightly more expensive module that also takes up more real estate.

It's simply the reality of camera design. Real audio takes up real space.

The beauty of the DSMC2 platform is these modules make the cameras far more customizable - different modules literally can expand or contract not just the size of the camera, but what the camera can actually do.

The problem is that we already had all this as part of the camera brain (Epic/Scarlet/Dragon/R1). Now it comes at a $4k premium that makes camera much bigger and heavier than Epic brain used to be and a bunch of features you wouldn't really want on a small, documentary camera set up. That's really not much of a choice.


Seems insincere trying to make these major setbacks sound like new camera features.

 

[Milan Spasic]

If we can get a firmware fix that helps the levels adjustment to (take out another 2.3db) and also fix the glitch we get when recording ext audio to track 3and4 we would be fine...

Michael

That would be nice.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Especially since an 1/8" input is rarely ever mic level only. From an end user standpoint, that seems impractical.

All DSLR BM pocket, 5D, A7s... Weapon base module, have stereo mic level input over mini-jack. If this is good or bad it's not for me to decide but it's a common standard adopted in the DSLR world.

Pat

 

[joshua csehak]

Maybe the answer is to get the small base expander for the lightweight config, and get this http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mixers/mixpred for whenever you need audio?

Honestly, I've cared about this less and less as more and more shoots (almost all now) involve sound guys. But I have to admit -- it's hard to understand why it's always been such an issue for RED when all that audio stuff seems to come stock on the other major cameras. I'd be curious to hear the thought process behind the decision making there.

 

[Marc Ruiz]

Yeah I agree something is wrong...

I have a Woven CF and a Mag. The Woven has not had any issues. The Mag has been a nightmare. Audio issues and Deadpixels on the sidekick.

In camera audio sounds fine on headphone and absolutely awful on the file. Thank goodness for separate audio recording.

That said...it is currently unexplainable.

Disappointing.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Maybe the answer is to get the small base expander for the lightweight config, and get this http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mixers/mixpred for whenever you need audio?

Honestly, I've cared about this less and less as more and more shoots (almost all now) involve sound guys. But I have to admit -- it's hard to understand why it's always been such an issue for RED when all that audio stuff seems to come stock on the other major cameras. I'd be curious to hear the thought process behind the decision making there.

I think the thinking is that real audio (pre-amps and phantom power) just takes up space.

RED hasn't had a "real" audio solution built into a camera since the RED ONE.

It's the byproduct of making a very small camera that weighs 3lbs.

But looks like there will be many options down the road (OMOD being one that looks VERY promising).

 

[Kevin Marshall]

The problem is that we already had all this as part of the camera brain (Epic/Scarlet/Dragon/R1). Now it comes at a $4k premium that makes camera much bigger and heavier than Epic brain used to be and a bunch of features you wouldn't really want on a small, documentary camera set up. That's really not much of a choice.


Seems insincere trying to make these major setbacks sound like new camera features.

To be fair, Epic/Scarlet/Dragon did not have line level input either. You had to buy the Pro I/O *shudders* module. Usually getting mic level sent from sound dept hasn't been a problem, but I agree it's unfortunate that RED hasn't been able to implement at least that in their basic audio option. The OMOD XLR looks like a cool option for future buyers as an alternative to the base expander, and there's at least Wooden Camera's A-box to put XLRs on the camera (though that doesn't solve levels and phantom power).

 

[Doug Beatty]

All DSLR BM pocket, 5D, A7s... Weapon base module, have stereo mic level input over mini-jack. If this is good or bad it's not for me to decide but it's a common standard adopted in the DSLR world.

Pat

In the audio world, we call DSLRs "toy cameras"

DSMC2 isn't a toy.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Sounds like a whole lot of unrequested beta testing inposed on unsuspecting purchasers of full price products on real time jobs with toxic results...how is that OK?

 

[Philip Lima]

I'm using an A-Box with my CF weapon with great results. I've done a couple shoots now with a lav and boom(both self powered and using a phantom power injector) straight in and it sounded as clean as anything I recorded on either of my Epic Ms. I've also used the internal mics to capture ambience for a shoot and it worked, though it was very quiet. Luckily the environment was loud, so it sounded quite good.

 

[Milan Spasic]

To be fair, Epic/Scarlet/Dragon did not have line level input either. You had to buy the Pro I/O *shudders* module. Usually getting mic level sent from sound dept hasn't been a problem, but I agree it's unfortunate that RED hasn't been able to implement at least that in their basic audio option. The OMOD XLR looks like a cool option for future buyers as an alternative to the base expander, and there's at least Wooden Camera's A-box to put XLRs on the camera (though that doesn't solve levels and phantom power).

Like I've said, I'm not an audio engineer so bare with me.

This never happened to me when sending reference tone out of the mixer to an Epic/Scarlet/Dragon:

I rarely work without audio crew but it's important for me to have the option to run my own audio with a very minimalistic camera build, when doing documentary projects etc.

That is no more.

Both OMOD XLR and RV Module look great but will make the camera YUGE. Might as well regress back to R1, audio and size wise.

 

[Milan Spasic]

Sounds like a whole lot of unrequested beta testing inposed on unsuspecting purchasers of full price products on real time jobs with toxic results...how is that OK?

Unrequested beta testing kinda goes without saying with Red but honestly, I've never even looked at the Base Expander module audio spec before pulling the trigger on Weapon because I didn't even dream that Red would take the basic audio features away, that were part of the brain on previous cameras.

 

[Phil Holland]

I rarely work without audio crew but it's important for me to have the option to run my own audio with a very minimalistic camera build, when doing documentary projects etc.
VERSATILITY was part of the appeal with Epic. With a Redvolt XL module, EVF and side handle, it was small and light and with my Sanken mic and a wireless lav, it made for a powerful, cinematic, documentary making tool.

That is no more.

Alarmingly close minded, but here's one of 50 ways of doing something like this while still be relatively compact:

And there's more options on the horizon as well.

Remember...... Weapon is smaller and lighter weight when compared to DSMC bodies. The REDVOLT Expander that you are highly critical of weighs 2.2lbs, a Weapon is around 3.3lbs. Just that combo alone is nearly the exact weight of just a RED Epic and you get hot swap, firm Phantom Power capable XLR ports, and the various other connections. If you do use that combo, with a battery plate, you're camera will be approximately 8 or 9 inches long not including lens.

Stop being crazy.

This is one of the reasons RED has opening up module development to certain 3rd parties. This is also one of the reasons various audio companies make very, very compact XLR Phantom power solutions even.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Yes I don't get it, getting a mic-level signal into the wooden camera a-box is no biggie. Any pro mixer can do that. And if your running the audio yourself just make sure your boom has a battery. The audio to my cam I just did the other night sounds great.

 

[Milan Spasic]

Alarmingly close minded, but here's one of 50 ways of doing something like this while still be relatively compact:

And there's more options on the horizon as well.

Remember...... Weapon is smaller and lighter weight when compared to DSMC bodies. The REDVOLT Expander that you are highly critical of weighs 2.2lbs, a Weapon is around 3.3lbs. Just that combo alone is nearly the exact weight of just a RED Epic and you get hot swap, firm Phantom Power capable XLR ports, and the various other connections. If you do use that combo, with a battery plate, you're camera will be approximately 8 or 9 inches long not including lens.

Stop being crazy.

This is one of the reasons RED has opening up module development to certain 3rd parties. This is also one of the reasons various audio companies make very, very compact XLR Phantom power solutions even.

"Stop being crazy"? Nice.

I strongly disagree.

The digital rendering and the way you are trying to portray the size of the camera seems disingenuous when looking at the ACTUAL photos of the camera with an RV module attached.
Add a XL battery module and a battery and the camera is twice the size of the Epic, all for a $$$$ premium and a bunch of features you don't need when shooting light.
And all this just to get audio features that were part of the brain before? Seems ridic.

 

[Phil Holland]

Yes I don't get it, getting a mic-level signal into the wooden camera a-box is no biggie. Any pro mixer can do that. And if your running the audio yourself just make sure your boom has a battery. The audio to my cam I just did the other night sounds great.

The only gripe that can be real here is that DSMC bodies did indeed feed Phantom Power via the 3.5" ports. DSMC2 does not.

While a thing and moderate annoyance, there's solutions. And often better solutions than 3.5" ports.

 

[Phil Holland]

"Stop being crazy"? Nice.

I strongly disagree.

The digital rendering and the way you are trying to portray the size of the camera seems disingenuous when looking at the ACTUAL photos of the camera with an RV module attached.
Add a XL battery module and a battery and the camera is twice the size of the Epic, all for a $$$$ premium and a bunch of features you don't need when shooting light.
And all this just to get audio features that were part of the brain before? Seems ridic.

Then use the option like I showed you above or simply just use a wireless XLR receiver to 3.5" and do like I do and the camera is magically still small.

There's also a few things that haven't been announced yet from "various parties" that are also smaller.