How rentable is Dragon?

[Björn Benckert]

There are already so many Epics out there, one has to assume that they will all go Dragon. SO, how much a day more for Dragon, $500 more, $200 more , $50 bucks or the same price as those Epics are renting for right now ?

IMO The days of renting gear & profiting are drawing to a close ( unless you're a big player ).

So its simple dont base your math on rentals, base it on the old adage, use it or loose it.

Actually we do not charge more for Dragon. As I see it we have a 3 years old camera that got a 9000USD upgrade. A good upgrade that is but the cost is covered with less than 9 days rent...

 

[Iskandar Abdullayev]

Thank you all for great answers, they were very helpful

 

[shashbugu]

I can truly and absolutely assure you that the DEMAND for the Red Dragon, today today is higher than the DEMAND for an Arri Alexa. Real talk. I know first hand... Now that is Demand!!!!! As far as supply goes its a whole different story. I have called around to realize that most Dragon owners are not real business men and quote prices that make producers say well "maybe next time". Unless you own a carbon dragon you should really rent you should really rent your Dragon at the same price as an MX. Always remember the cost of 6k post is exponential and is always factored into a production. I'm talking real world experience. This has been the downfall of the F55. There is no real DEMAND for C500, but once you do the entire production math it makes absolute sense to use a C500. This by all means does not adhere to Hollywood productions, major indies and high end commercials where clearly the Arri Alexa Workflow has become the conventional line item norm for Enterainment Partners accounting and bonding, much like Avid offline/ online.

In another world ie dvxuser world, the C300, c100, are the most rented cameras out there. Lower end filmmakers have not read the MeMo on dynamic range, resolution, and color fidelity.

So if you want to have a successful camera rental business.... Rent your Dragon for MX prices and get your clients hooked on luscious images.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I can truly and absolutely assure you that the DEMAND for the Red Dragon, today today is higher than the DEMAND for an Arri Alexa. Real talk. I know first hand... Now that is Demand!!!!! As far as supply goes its a whole different story. I have called around to realize that most Dragon owners are not real business men and quote prices that make producers say well "maybe next time". Unless you own a carbon dragon you should really rent you should really rent your Dragon at the same price as an MX. Always remember the cost of 6k post is exponential and is always factored into a production. I'm talking real world experience. This has been the downfall of the F55. There is no real DEMAND for C500, but once you do the entire production math it makes absolute sense to use a C500. This by all means does not adhere to Hollywood productions, major indies and high end commercials where clearly the Arri Alexa Workflow has become the conventional line item norm for Enterainment Partners accounting and bonding, much like Avid offline/ online.

In another world ie dvxuser world, the C300, c100, are the most rented cameras out there. Lower end filmmakers have not read the MeMo on dynamic range, resolution, and color fidelity.

So if you want to have a successful camera rental business.... Rent your Dragon for MX prices and get your clients hooked on luscious images.

You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

 

[Nick Morrison]

You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

I agree. Jarred pretty much said as much, and inferred this was one of the reasons they were dropping the proxy module. The cost of entry to manage and grade 6k footage has dropped dramatically over past couple of years.

 

[shashbugu]

You make good points but as computers get faster this will quickly become a non-issue, and to a great degree already is. 6K post no big problem on all but the very oldest desktops.

I agree the new mac pros, dells, box and HPs will dramatically change the post landscape for Raw workflows

 

[Justin McAleece]

Backfocus is an issue because your focus fall-off does not behave properly and breathing becomes more pronounced- it has nothing to do with focussing by eye or not (well, to me it's not the important thing) - and 4K RAW, uncompressed, will create ludicrous file sizes.

You can't monitor the histogram of RAW using an external scope by definition - its in the video output chain so tells you little about RAW recording. Plus I don't cherish having to tether my cam every time I want to check scopes - that would be really, really annoying on Steadiacm or while doing scenic b-rolls with a tiny crew. It would generally waste a lot of set time for no good reason.

If you want an example of why I don;t think the new BM 4K is all that useable look here. https://vimeo.com/86892302


That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything. What a difference a camera makes. The clouds also hard-clip - but clippy clouds I can live with, making talent look bad I cannot.

No OLPF + harsh clip = wrinkly, greasy looking skin - which you can see form the Epic shots is a distortion of reality - she's a very pretty girl. I would never accept to shoot humans with this camera. Anyone who thinks it doesn't matter which camera you use needs to see an eye doctor pronto.

@ 34 secs. Ouch!

 

[Mike Garrick]

I'm not sure why BMCC is being shown here I thought this was about Dragon. BMCC is in no way comparable to dragon.

However if I was a young gun I would be all over this camera, it kills HDLSR and has a vaguely usable UI ( sort of ). The faults being pointed out highlights some of the cameras weaknesses, but so what its a 3k camera. Tried doing whip pans on a 30K Epic recently, it also has issues. Every camera has flaws, stop the tedious HDLSR fanboy rant of my camera is better than yours or worse still my big multi-national logo is better than yours.

Move on ......Bjorn & Rob I agree with both comments nothing extra in the rental rate but possibly more work for early adopters.

 

[Doug Beatty]

That poor girl looks way worse under BM cam than Epic (and Scarlet would also look great) same girl, same light ,same everything.

Some people like apples and some prefer oranges, but to be fair, you have to at the very least admit that different lenses and filters were used on each camera in this test.

I see folks on the fourm jumping all over the 'Canon is better in low light than Red' argument. They counter that there is no noise reduction done in camera and a little post NR gets Red footage in the same ballpark. Nothing is stopping you from keying in some softening for skin on the BMCC if it's too sharp for your liking.

Off topic and FWIW- if I wanted a 4K global shutter camera I'd get the BMCC and add a matte box with a full set of ND and soft f/x filters and I'd still have a little money left over in my pocket than if I were to buy a motion mount. I think BMD has a great camera here, and it's going to be very popular.

 

[Elsie N]

My thinking is, someday IMAX is going to be very widespread. I believe Dragon will translate to those screens. Think ahead... think big.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Ours runs hot I just missed a 60 day rental just because I had a few stray days confirmed with other clients.. bummer. Not much to do about it, called me wanted the camera the following day to get on a plane to go to some remote island for a diving expedition. They ended up with a scarlet instead. Such shit makes me go smurfing around the top section of the red store... looking at the carbon.... but my wife would kill me

 

[Michael Hastings]

I'm not sure why BMCC is being shown here I thought this was about Dragon. BMCC is in no way comparable to dragon.

However if I was a young gun I would be all over this camera, it kills HDLSR and has a vaguely usable UI ( sort of ). The faults being pointed out highlights some of the cameras weaknesses, but so what its a 3k camera. Tried doing whip pans on a 30K Epic recently, it also has issues. Every camera has flaws, stop the tedious HDLSR fanboy rant of my camera is better than yours or worse still my big multi-national logo is better than yours.

Move on ......Bjorn & Rob I agree with both comments nothing extra in the rental rate but possibly more work for early adopters.

For the record, no one is claiming the BMCC is in any way comparable to Dragon, BMPC4K was brought up in the discussion so made comments. I think the real point is that Epic Rental market is fairly well saturated - the businesses with current and ongoing client growth will rent it as they have rented Epic MX in the past, but individual owner ops will have a hard time - as they do now.

But the original poster asked because he needs 10 weeks of rental in the business plan to justify, but if he is just now ordering he is by definition NOT going to be an early adopter so it doesn't seem likely that he will be able to get his 10 weeks unless he already has significant rental clients that want it because by the time he gets his dragon there will be hundreds or thousands of Dragons flooding the market.

 

[Iskandar Abdullayev]

Would Dragons flood the market though? It seems that Dragon sensor production yield might be more limited than EPIC's. Unless current scarcity of Dragons is not artificially created until color science is ironed out or due to upgrades bottleneck, or both, but it's a different story...

 

[Wil Wong]

I think Dragons will flood the market eventually. Hard to even know how many will buy a Dragon or Epic and then when Alexa comes out with a 4K version make them wanna sell and buy that (cause it's the latest trend or it's what they were buying time waiting for). I think the longer the gap, the more Dragons will be bought and then suddenly flood the market being sold. It might even drown the market and cause a bad surplus situation.

 

[Iskandar Abdullayev]

Alexa 4K will cost an arm and a leg and a kidney

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Very prescient Elsie...

And anyone who is not considering upgrading to Dragon should plan to do it... It is not only a game changer, I believe no one will rent an Epic MX in a year's time....

Also when did everyone become rental houses? I only make money on my Dragons when I am shooting a TVC or feature....

You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

I don't mean to burst any bubbles but rental houses exist for a reason. 24 hour service with total 100% redundancy.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Very prescient Elsie...

And anyone who is not considering upgrading to Dragon should plan to do it... It is not only a game changer, I believe no one will rent an Epic MX in a year's time....

Also when did everyone become rental houses? I only make money on my Dragons when I am shooting a TVC or feature....

You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

I don't mean to burst any bubbles but rental houses exist for a reason. 24 hour service with total 100% redundancy.

Rentals to others do help the bottom line - not to pay all the bills, but they help cash flow in the right direction. We are a bit less per day than a big rental house, and for things like music videos people do like renting from us. Camera has never gone down on set, but we are very careful about all aspects of maintenance, so huge redundancies are not necessary, plus we have other owner-ops on speed-dial for the remote possibility that ever happened. ACtually our cams are newer, and many people say more reliable/in better shape. Rental house cams can sometimes be very shopworn indeed.

As a director/DP I have so many days of prep, and not that many on-set, so just on our own shoots, its' not always obvious to make the money back, especially when agencies ask for Alexas "because it's better" (I'm not saying I agree, I'm saying… You know how agencies are. But $9500 I would imagine will not be too much of a problem.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

For the record, no one is claiming the BMCC is in any way comparable to Dragon, BMPC4K was brought up in the discussion so made comments. I think the real point is that Epic Rental market is fairly well saturated - the businesses with current and ongoing client growth will rent it as they have rented Epic MX in the past, but individual owner ops will have a hard time - as they do now.

But the original poster asked because he needs 10 weeks of rental in the business plan to justify, but if he is just now ordering he is by definition NOT going to be an early adopter so it doesn't seem likely that he will be able to get his 10 weeks unless he already has significant rental clients that want it because by the time he gets his dragon there will be hundreds or thousands of Dragons flooding the market.

Actually many people do make that claim (have a look at DVXuser… Talk to some agency creatives, or music label video dept people...) I just want to clarify differences, and that is to everyone's benefit. I think that video does a very good of illustrating some of the differences.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You will all make your investment back, but really is rental of one or two cameras a living?

Not a living but I think of my Epic as a "co-op". It's nice to have your own camera package for shooting personal projects and if you can rent it out a few days per month it gives you a camera for "free". Clients get a package that is production proven and constantly improving based on shoot experiences. Win-Win in my books.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think someone should loan me their dragon and i could show you how rentable it is even my epic does fairly well still...yes im sure it will taper off, but im hoping my dragon will ship before that happens...