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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How about a BLACK SHADE MODULE for lots of Black Shade storage settings?

Martin Stevens

Martin Stevens

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Okay....

How about a BLACK SHADE MODULE for lots of Black Shade storage settings?

Put a CF Card into this small BLACK SHADE MODULE and then have the camera run for a few hours
storing every possible Black Shade setting.

I hope this makes sense.

Of course if the EPIC-X can already or will be able to save every possible Black Shade setting then this
will not be needed.

Nor will it be needed if Black Shading can eventually be done VERY quickly.

:)
 
I'm not sure I understand how this works. How would you make sure you're using the correct calibration setting? There's more to it than just storing camera settings such as frame rates, resolutions, and shutter speeds.
 
Peter Cote said:
I'm not sure I understand how this works. How would you make sure you're using the correct calibration setting? There's more to it than just storing camera settings such as frame rates, resolutions, and shutter speeds.
Click to expand...

You could select which calibration setting you want, or the camera could find it for you automatically.
 
Martin Stevens said:
You could select which calibration setting you want, or the camera could find it for you automatically.
Click to expand...

Well I doubt that the camera could find it for you because that's exactly what the camera does now that takes so long. Black shading takes into account things like temperature on the sensor to improve blacks. I'm not sure how I, as a user, would be able to select a black shade setting that's accurate.
 
Peter Cote said:
Well I doubt that the camera could find it for you because that's exactly what the camera does now that takes so long. Black shading takes into account things like temperature on the sensor to improve blacks. I'm not sure how I, as a user, would be able to select a black shade setting that's accurate.
Click to expand...

Right now the Epic allows 2 saved calibration settings.
I'm just saying wouldn't it be grand to have lots or all of them savable.

And yes, you might still have to save under certain conditions.
 
Maybe we don't need a module for that and smart RED team can find a way to export the black shading data to SSD so it can be saved on a computer for later use...

It would need to be locked to a specific camera Pin number...

If it could save the sensor temperature, an expiry date, framerate and shutter speed it would allow us to keep specific blackshades for high speed and slow shutter and be reloaded in a few minutes versus 20 minutes
 
I wish that Black Shading could be saved to Redcine-X and then applied in post.

??? ???
 
what your asking for just isn't viable. your saved black shade won't apply to any new production you go on. hell the black shading calibration changes from cold boot to all the way warmed up, to the additional heat in the room from the lights, weather, etc. and that all changes as you make iso, shutter, resolution. etc. there are a incredible amount of variables to consider, and a pre determined black shade won't apply to any portion of the day other than when you black shaded. and the rest is up to the camera on how well it keeps that calibration and degrades as the conditions change. obviously the r1 was better at holding it, while an epic and or scarlet needs it done more often. it's the nature of the beast. all you can hope for is for RED to figure out a way to get the blackshading down to something reasonable and fast.
 
Black Shading is done to eliminate the 'left' current while the sensor is in complete darkness. That 'left behind' or residue current gives you noise otherwise.
Also a shift in colour may occur in the dark areas. All this depends on the temperature of the sensor, so in fact this is thermal noise you are trying to avoid.

Big temperature shifts are certainly a right moment to do black shading! Not only will it deal with noise an colour imbalance, most cameras will also perform
a check for dead pixels and eliminate those.

All the above is applicable to most cameras, where it only takes less than 30 seconds. So it is a bit strange here with RED when all this takes 20 minutes on an Epic.
Because it is all about calibrating to the condition of the individual sensor in a certain location, it seems a bit strange to me to do this in post.
 
Anyone care to guess why black shading on the Epic and Scarlet takes around 10x longer than the average video camera?
 
Ian B. Johnson said:
Anyone care to guess why black shading on the Epic and Scarlet takes around 10x longer than the average video camera?
Click to expand...

I was told it was because of high frame rates.
 
If I were a gambling man, I'd say it is because of the amount of components that needs calibration or because of the algorithm used -- but then again, only RED really knows why it takes so much longer than other contemporary cameras... all I know is that I doubt it could be much shorter, or it'd already be shorter. But then again, always hope for the best! Here's to shorter calibration times in 2012! We need to move fast while the world is ending, didn't you know?! :-)
 
I'm just speaking and guessing here. But Red stated that "quicker black shading is on it's way". To me that means much quicker.

It depends on how exactly they execute that, but I firmly believe they can get it down to sub 5 minutes to potentially even sub 15 seconds. I would need more information about what exactly is going on, but I have experience on other types of scientific sensors and we have had to do a similar "thing".
 
An educated guess--

It takes considerably longer to blackshade an MX sensor in an Epic (as compared to the same sensor Red One, or a 1080-output sensor elsewhere) because Red is defining more pixels per unit[SUP]2[/SUP] than any other sensor. What Red considers a worthwhile size for a pixel is considered too small to work with by other manufacturers (at least that's what they tell me). Red's proprietary sensor, Robcode[SUP]TM[/SUP] compression and stunning images prove otherwise.

Continuing this guess, 5K demands even more pixels than 4K, and with Epic's tight-ship internal system and a sensor pushed to its limits, you've got a system any engineer will tell you is begging for entropy. Blackshading might've been unsuccessful when they sped up the algorithm, so perhaps the decision was made to make it nearly flawless (sorry Rick Darge) and take longer. Most folks aren't going into temperature / fps extremes.

Phil I tend to agree, quicker will probably mean much quicker. Once they really get down to it... That's the exciting thing here, Epic- and Scarlet-X are barely out the gate. When you think about where the Red One was when we first started messing with it early 2008, and the order of magnitude Red has grown since, I'm excited about little problems, it means Red will think of awesome solutions.
 
Ian B. Johnson said:
Anyone care to guess why black shading on the Epic and Scarlet takes around 10x longer than the average video camera?
Click to expand...

Would love a RED authored, comprehensive guide to all things Black Shading
 
The epic has two black shade modes.

1. Factory default
2. User definable

So you can actually only save one custom preset.

Before he left RED Deanan stated that they were working on adding more custom black shades so that you could switch to low or hIgh frame rates and change the blackshading to a preset for those framerates.

I don't know who from RED will be in charge of solving these kinds of problems now but hopefully the knowledge has been distributed or, by some freak chance, Deanan comes back to RED.

David
 
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