Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Great news! A Production Hold.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jannard said:
I would be very happy to send you back your deposit with interest. Just let me know.

What part of "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." did you not understand? The decision was made today. I posted today. You responded today. Seems like effective communication to me?

Jim
Click to expand...
No Jim, I think this is not very fair - Trevor Meier is saying what many customers are thinking. The communication is not really effective. For example: there is a sticky post from zakaree saying - "Red will contact every customer 30days in advance" - this doesn´t happen - we know why. But maybe it would be helpful to correct this post. The problem is for some people (including me) that they are not able to be on the board too much time. I do it in the night, when the kids are in bed and all other is done.
I am sure most people have fully understanding about your policiy (me too) and are willing to wait to have a better camera.
But they all love better information - maybe a board with all announcements from Red, possible to read without scrolling and searching the board.
Most future RED user want to do business with the camera - and have own interests they have to discuss with their own customers. This is sometimes silly, if they know more because they have more time to watch the forum.
In this case we are in discussion with a production company, which was planning to shoot with a dutch Red from 6th novembre. A second camera was planned to come from us (to be delivered at 30th octobre). Two days ago we decide to cancel our offer to rent 2 RED´s - I had a big time wasting discussion with the production - at the end I was informed from the assistent that there is a production hold. I would love to know this earlier.

Nevertheless - we are drying all tears today - cross the fingers for the winds to change so the fire can go back to the desert.
 
Sounds great. Would love a more reassuring lens mount. And you can't have enough dynamic range . Is this something you can talk about? Will you be able to turn it on and turn it off? Is this a frame averaging kinda deal?

Is there a rough idea when this would take happen? And how long the turnaround will be?
 
Honestly, i wouldn't dare to make promise to rent if i'm on your side. It's management. You still have to do trial and error after u get your camera. And i think it's not fair to fully blame on RED too. You know for the fact that RED is on progress in making changes. I don't mean anything, i just think you don't have "flaw plan" inside the plan.

To RED, i think it's a good idea for customers to have their own member access page to track on their schedule or checking on latest announcement, so that no more complaint like didn't get an email. I think this is something a must to do.
 
Jannard said:
We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

I think there's something wrong in your email. We are holders of some reservations, including 166 & 167 and we did NOT receive any emails from red.

I somehow agree with Trevor. Why don't you email to reservation holders everytime you do an important post?

We cannot be all day looking for posts in a forum. Maybe you could put them in red.com as important notices to customers.

This forum is great if you have time to read it every day, but lots of us simply can't. We are a rental company, we of course haven't planned any shooting and we won't till we actually touch the cameras, made our own tests and are sure we are ready to support our customers, but we need to have detailed information of what's going on.

It wouldn't be that hard to email important notices.

Our company is so happy with the information we are receiving about the camera and we would wait another year if necessary.

We have lots of stocks from Sony and Panasonic. I am wondering, do all the people that is complaining about delays and bugs have ever pre-ordered from one of the big names? They always delay, they usually have bugs, some of them huge and sometimes they don't even tell you, you just find them and when you go to the support site, then you see their official bulletin stating there's a bug in the cameras.
 
Considering the utter chaos these fires have created, I think its extraordinary that RED team held an engineering meeting, decided to place a hold on production to implement improvements, began the task of restoring the clean rooms, and informed everyone of these updates and all in one day. I'm impressed. If you've only seen the news coverage, you have no idea how these fires have impacted us out here, the fact that they keep toiling under a dark cloud (literally) to get these cameras out should be celebrated.
 
Well, I can't speak for other reservees, but I am really amazed by the development of the camera. It's a bit like ordering a one-off piece of specialised, custom built scientific instrumentation and getting constant updates from the design team as they improve it and hone it's abilities. It's a bit like being NASA waiting for a new piece of the ISS to be delivered - wait a second, that was a bad analogy, it's way better than that!
But a few years ago I can remember thinking about what would be my ideal moving picture camera and what features it would have. Now, I can witness it's birth as I await the delivery of my unit. And I can can wait some more. Whatever it takes is ok by me Jim. I realise that the development of Red is going to be a continuing process, a continual evolution and ordering a camera is a commitment to that process.

P.S. Speaking of NASA, I wonder Jim, is it likely we will see a Red in space?
 
Charles Adams said:
I see your point. But only to a certain degree. I still think anyone who is unhappy should go buy a Sony instead then.
Click to expand...
Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.
 
Getting there!

Getting there!

The adjustable lens mount is something a few of us have wanted, well done Jim and team!

A remaining obvious improvement which WILL happen sooner or later is a 14bit A/D.

Anyone hwo has been ignoring the advice of experienced users and has started scheduling Jobs with RED have only themselves to blame for any frustration.

Having said that the experience of other manufacturers is worth noting.
Thomson tend to design a product and make it to that spec and don't add incrimental improvements. They have said that they have to stop tweaking at soem point and make money out of the camera


Sony in the past tended to release the camera and keep tweaking until the money runs out and we are left with a half baked camera (albeit with more improvements than it was first launched).
Lately though they are testing for longer. XDCAMHD for instance.

Dont know how to characterise REDs approach, although the plan is for continuing upgrades to existing kit there will come a time when major componets need to be improverd or that a revised form factor will be desirable and so that a completly new camera will be the way to go, but I'd guess that this is a 3-5 years away.

But it seems to me that we are at the point soon (maybe three months) with RED where any delay caused by anything other than bug fixing raises the hackles of those who have been waiting the longest.

But as a bloke who has had the early adopter spirit beaten out of me over 25 years, I'd wait six months for;
*14bit AD
*a revised body so I can bolt a battery directly on the back (or an elongated one that runs down the body)or moving camera menue display to the side of the camera.
*Removable sensor block to form a remote head.


I'd be very pleasently surprised if these things would be on offer as cost effective upgrades to the existing camera.

Ive guessed/timed my delivery for March to hopefully coincide with revised features and most bug fixes to be implemented, until then I'm sitting on the funds of my recently sold 2/3 inch HD kit....


Mike Brennan
 
Ha! By the time my camera #3000 or so arrives, it'll be so pimped up to the gills with features I won't know what to do with it. By then it'll be able to do 8 trillion frames a second at 4K with a hundred and two stops of latitude...With a PL mount that goes to the shoot by itself while the rest of the camera stays at home and puts it's feet up.

Awesome.

Stay safe out there.

Mik.
 
DorkmanScott said:
Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Besides the fact that I think this move of RED (delaying a bit, making the camera a lot better for free) is great, I agree with this post.

The poster who got all the criticism DIDN'T say he was pist because of the delays (although he had maybe some annoyances about it)... he even said it was a good thing, considering the upgrade... he was ONLY pist about not getting a personal email, and instead, having to check trough publick forums...
I do think the hostility towards that post from members and - with all due respect - from Jim, was not correct.

If the RED Staff DID sent an email, then I think it's a bit normal that Jim got a bit pissed too, although I think he could have handled it better ("Trevor, didn't you get the email we sent? We sent an email to reservation holders...")...
I also think it's normal that considering the fires and chaos out there, Jim is maybe a bit (pardon the pun) hot-headed.

But as it is now: Jim sent an email, he was right.
But as it seems, the email didn't get delivered.
Trevor reacted, not knowingly.
Jim reacted, not knowingly.

But Trevor wasn't wrong...
 
If you just wrote "It's burning over here, you'll just have to wait, folks", no one would dare to argue. All the improvements are a great bonus.
We know you all are doing your best.

Hope everything turns out o.k. with the fire.
 
Seems reasonable.

Seems reasonable.

DorkmanScott said:
Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.
Click to expand...

I love what the RED team is doing and all of the improvements to the camera. Kudos.

But the dorkman seems reasonable, too.
 
Jannard said:
We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim
Click to expand...

From the man's oun mouth.
 
number6 said:
From the man's oun mouth.
Click to expand...

number6, please read the complete thread before replying.
Many people don't seem to have gotten their email, so something went wrong in the communication. That isn't RED's fault, but neither the fault of the customer.
Just a misunderstanding.
 
no email here either

no email here either

Jannard said:
We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim
Click to expand...

thanks for the update and the improvements to the camera but i didn't receive any email either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top