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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Gimbal support. Exoskeletons or ready rig/easy rig?

Gimbal support. Exoskeletons or ready rig/easy rig?

  • L'aigle Exoskeleton

    Votes: 13 19.4%

  • Tiltamax Armor Man

    Votes: 4 6.0%

  • Ready Rig GS

    Votes: 21 31.3%

  • Easy rig

    Votes: 22 32.8%

  • Action Products The Runner

    Votes: 6 9.0%

  • BULK UP

    Votes: 3 4.5%
  • Total voters
    67
Chris McKechnie said:
I've got the Tiltamax Armorman. I'll be posting a review of it soon. In terms of it's maneuverability, I love it, and it's far better than what an easy rig/serene/puppeteer offers, but the easy rig is more widely used for gimbal support since it's been on the market a lot longer.
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Chris, what made you choose tilta over action products runner? Price?
 
I don't think the results of this pole are showing the "best", just more like what have people bought or something (or are presenting for themselves as the best kit for hire). I also don't think you can make a comparison by just testing something at nab once, but needs to be in the field with heavy use for a year. Obviously physical fitness is the most important, I don't see any of these options working well for someone that is out of shape (just factor in the weight of the system and moving around all day, it's real tough work).

There's all kinds of shoots that have totally different requirements: commercials / features / hand_over_shots / sports tracking / reality / overhead / running / low_to_ground / etc . For example in the hand over shots (i.e. rope/crane drops the camera/gimbal, which then is taken by a operator), exo's just don't work very well. Also shooting with the rig high over your head and then going low, really i don't see many of the support rigs as usable for those types either. Another thing I've noticed, are the shots quick 15 second choreographed things, or are you following action around all day - huge different in rig need.

I think opened ended "what is the best" threads need to have use cases/job types associated to them (i.e. what is the best for reality tv gimbal support is even tough, since there is such a huge range of reality work, i'd almost break that down to "social" reality shows vs "outdoor" reality shows).
 
PatrickFaith said:
I don't think the results of this pole are showing the "best", just more like what have people bought or something (or are presenting for themselves as the best kit for hire). I also don't think you can make a comparison by just testing something at nab once, but needs to be in the field with heavy use for a year. Obviously physical fitness is the most important, I don't see any of these options working well for someone that is out of shape (just factor in the weight of the system and moving around all day, it's real tough work).

There's all kinds of shoots that have totally different requirements: commercials / features / hand_over_shots / sports tracking / reality / overhead / running / low_to_ground / etc . For example in the hand over shots (i.e. rope/crane drops the camera/gimbal, which then is taken by a operator), exo's just don't work very well. Also shooting with the rig high over your head and then going low, really i don't see many of the support rigs as usable for those types either. Another thing I've noticed, are the shots quick 15 second choreographed things, or are you following action around all day - huge different in rig need.

I think opened ended "what is the best" threads need to have use cases/job types associated to them (i.e. what is the best for reality tv gimbal support is even tough, since there is such a huge range of reality work, i'd almost break that down to "social" reality shows vs "outdoor" reality shows).
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Hey Patric, unfortunately no company gives free rigs for weeks of use, for customer to discover if its the correct rig for them. So its either Shows and again that varies depending on the experience of the user as well, or people will need to go to workshops , or even rental places and test for longer .

An experienced steadicam op , can read a new rig 80-90% and be able to tell if its better or worst from what he has already. A non experienced operator that never wear a steadicam before in his life will just feel he is wearing a dinosaur and has no way of telling what works and whats not. The same goes for other body mounts too.

For example we have Optical support as our representatives in UK , so if one wants can book a test session, with any camera, and those guys are steadicam wizards with loads of cool equipment so one can test combos.

Its very hard to do this all over the world and harder to find all the products side by side all set to test side by side, thats why shows can give you a preety good picture to get closer to what you like, then you can go and find someone who owns the gear and test more extensively, in a workshop or rental.

As for the body condition you are correct, I dont insist body mounts to people who have back problems claiming that this will fix their backs in fact, even the best steadicam system in the world, can destroy your back if you start with a known problem. You dont have to be crazy fit, but as long as you are in good shape and exercise then everything is cool. After all the Gimbal set ups are very light for body support systems.

Kind regards
 
Chris McKechnie said:
In terms of it's maneuverability, I love it, and it's far better than what an easy rig/serene/puppeteer offers
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I have to respectfully disagree with that. Having been in tight quarters and in complicated shooting positions, I have had my body twisted in a pretzel to pull of a shot with the ER/Serene combo, that you wouldn't be able to do with an exo at all.
Not saying that the Exo doesn't work or it's no good. I'm sure it will be the perfect fit for a good portion of gimbal users, but saying that one is "far better" than the other is no bueno.
 
Daniel Stilling said:
I have to respectfully disagree with that. Having been in tight quarters and in complicated shooting positions, I have had my body twisted in a pretzel to pull of a shot with the ER/Serene combo, that you wouldn't be able to do with an exo at all.
Not saying that the Exo doesn't work or it's no good. I'm sure it will be the perfect fit for a good portion of gimbal users, but saying that one is "far better" than the other is no bueno.
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Yea, every operator has their favorites and for different situations, solutions that work in one, may not work very well in another. That's why I love our industry...product diversity!
 
Joshua Echevarria said:
Patrick,
Fair enough. It is a bit of a generalization on my part but I thought it might be useful to get a dialogue going about the various and growing options out there.
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Agreed, it would help me a lot if people could comment on the work they do and explain how the different tools are used on different jobs(also these rigs are starting to almost intermix with steady cam rigs, and what pieces are used when ... since it's now a multi piece config - i.e. could be a "steady cam" harness, connected to some type of sliding cable thing, connected to a gimbal, which is controlled by a remote console ... i.e. i'm leaning to get a dual use harness/config which can be used both by steady cam and gimbal).

constantine Tirintzis said:
Hey Patric, unfortunately no company gives free rigs for weeks of use, for customer to discover if its the correct rig for them. So its either Shows and again that varies depending on the experience of the user as well, or people will need to go to workshops , or even rental places and test for longer .

An experienced steadicam op , can read a new rig 80-90% and be able to tell if its better or worst from what he has already. A non experienced operator that never wear a steadicam before in his life will just feel he is wearing a dinosaur and has no way of telling what works and whats not. The same goes for other body mounts too.

For example we have Optical support as our representatives in UK , so if one wants can book a test session, with any camera, and those guys are steadicam wizards with loads of cool equipment so one can test combos.

Its very hard to do this all over the world and harder to find all the products side by side all set to test side by side, thats why shows can give you a preety good picture to get closer to what you like, then you can go and find someone who owns the gear and test more extensively, in a workshop or rental.

As for the body condition you are correct, I dont insist body mounts to people who have back problems claiming that this will fix their backs in fact, even the best steadicam system in the world, can destroy your back if you start with a known problem. You dont have to be crazy fit, but as long as you are in good shape and exercise then everything is cool. After all the Gimbal set ups are very light for body support systems.

Kind regards
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You hit my primary problems:
I have some back problems from old rock climbing falls and hang gliding
I need to shoot low and in a performance capture setting that is impossible to really test without bringing things into the environment(almost all the tech is less then a year old)
Though I like harnesses with the cables coming down, they didn't represent the character due to the "bobby" nature of how the cable was taking weight off the operator (so btw I've been looking at your guys cable interface to the camera).
I'm 30 pounds overweight and a bit older, I need to exercise and get fit otherwise all my testing doesn't matter much.

For what I'm attempting to do I'm mixing this with performance capture so the "starting position" of the shot is often sitting on a bed or other weird perspective, then moves to looking around, jumping off something, then running. It's almost impossible to block everything, since it's a performance of the movement of the character and his interaction to the environment. To finish off my horrible requirements i need this to work on 4:1 aspect ratio without huge tilting on a camera config that is around 14 pounds where the gimbal is controlled by a second operator (so their are almost two actors doing the performance of the one character, which btw can be common in puppetry).
 
PatrickFaith said:
Agreed, it would help me a lot if people could comment on the work they do and explain how the different tools are used on different jobs(also these rigs are starting to almost intermix with steady cam rigs, and what pieces are used when ... since it's now a multi piece config - i.e. could be a "steady cam" harness, connected to some type of sliding cable thing, connected to a gimbal, which is controlled by a remote console ... i.e. i'm leaning to get a dual use harness/config which can be used both by steady cam and gimbal).



You hit my primary problems:
I have some back problems from old rock climbing falls and hang gliding
I need to shoot low and in a performance capture setting that is impossible to really test without bringing things into the environment(almost all the tech is less then a year old)
Though I like harnesses with the cables coming down, they didn't represent the character due to the "bobby" nature of how the cable was taking weight off the operator (so btw I've been looking at your guys cable interface to the camera).
I'm 30 pounds overweight and a bit older, I need to exercise and get fit otherwise all my testing doesn't matter much.

For what I'm attempting to do I'm mixing this with performance capture so the "starting position" of the shot is often sitting on a bed or other weird perspective, then moves to looking around, jumping off something, then running. It's almost impossible to block everything, since it's a performance of the movement of the character and his interaction to the environment. To finish off my horrible requirements i need this to work on 4:1 aspect ratio without huge tilting on a camera config that is around 14 pounds where the gimbal is controlled by a second operator (so their are almost two actors doing the performance of the one character, which btw can be common in puppetry).
Click to expand...

Hey Patrick I totally understand. I cannot tell in any way how ones back is and in what condition, abd I will tell you that though in steadicam you can mix different vests with different arms and different sleds, to have exactly what you feel is best for your operation, with all the rest of the systems you have to go with what they make as they are more or less compact sold.
with the exception of us , who you can addapt the Serene to a Klassen vest, and now to an Exo Tiffen vest.

the vests and weight distribution, and how it matches your body structure, is totally a different case for each individual. I cant claim for example that I like the easyrig vest better than the exo tiffen vest, but then again there is 5k difference in price. Fitting vests , adjusting them, sizing and ergonomics are very important for body mounts, and they can or they cannot work for someone, but can work for someone else. The sure thing is that some companies due being in the business know what they are doing, specially steadicam manufacturers like AP, and others just like to copy what the see by pictures missing all the R+D knowledge that a company goes through before it realises a product. If they are lucky they might get close.

never the less, when I design something I design it with all moves in the back of my mind that I performed over the years doing steadicam.

Saying that , who ever thinks that , buying any of the above systems can replace the need of a steadicam operator and steadicam, and go cheap thinking that its as good as steadicam he is very mistaken.

Gimbals and different body mounts with all their pros and weaknesses are designed to pull certain shots , and I consider them as additional tools and not steadicam replacements.

Thats why many steadicam ops use our system where it makes sense and then use their steadicam for the majority of their shots.

Different tools for special shots always made sense from the early days of cinematography and that has never changed.

btw sitting with a harness its very bad for your spine, you compress the spiral nerve and it can cause you problems.

starting low is something you can easily do with our combos standing.

if you like to discuss more and you feel I can help you in any way, mail me at constantine@flowcine .com.


kind regards
 
The main reason I went with an Exo' is to absorb fourth axis bumps/vibrations, relieve the weight, and it looks like it has superior low to hi mode ability. I never wanted to go the EZ rig route because I hate the pedestal sticking out behind my head. It causes unnecessary swing and I tend to bump into things with it. With the Serene Arm, we're now looking at over 4.5 grand. So the L'Aigle group buy was a no brainer. If I'd missed that buy the next serious consideration would be the AP Runner and then Tilta Armour Man. AP Runner seems like a more sophisticated Armour Man. The demos look awesome and it's more compact than them all. The L'Aigle while not as compact, it's an example of the long arm theory of smoothing out movement - like the trailing arm on a dirt bike. Perhaps that's why Slingshot and Ready Rig seem to get such rave reviews for gimbal work.
 
Ned Wilson said:
The main reason I went with an Exo' is to absorb fourth axis bumps/vibrations, relieve the weight, and it looks like it has superior low to hi mode ability. I never wanted to go the EZ rig route because I hate the pedestal sticking out behind my head. It causes unnecessary swing and I tend to bump into things with it. With the Serene Arm, we're now looking at over 4.5 grand. So the L'Aigle group buy was a no brainer. If I'd missed that buy the next serious consideration would be the AP Runner and then Tilta Armour Man. AP Runner seems like a more sophisticated Armour Man. The demos look awesome and it's more compact than them all. The L'Aigle while not as compact, it's an example of the long arm theory of smoothing out movement - like the trailing arm on a dirt bike. Perhaps that's why Slingshot and Ready Rig seem to get such rave reviews for gimbal work.
Click to expand...

what ever works for each individual is the correct tool for his needs. And thats what matters .

kind regards
 
I realize this thread is eight months old but........

For use with a gimbal, how does the stabilization (not the weight bearing aspects) of the Ready Rig compare to the EZ Rig/Serene/Puppeteer? The EZ Rig with Flowcine components really work well for stabilization, albeit much more costly. I've been looking to add the Ready Rig for the ability to go inverted and still support the gimbal, which I can't do with the EZ Rig. Just wondering if the Ready Rig affords much stabilization.
 
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I been running around with my ronin all easter trying to get this one shot for a commercial we are working on and now my little computer arms and back are so soared I can not even pick my nose, still did not get it and soon sun will go to low.
So what of these ex things are the best, soon is nab and they for sure will have new models out, which does not mean much as most of them did not get their last years showings out yet.

To me te tilta max armor man 2 looks promising. Any ideas?
 
Björn Benckert said:
I been running around with my ronin all easter trying to get this one shot for a commercial we are working on and now my little computer arms and back are so soared I can not even pick my nose, still did not get it and soon sun will go to low.
So what of these ex things are the best, soon is nab and they for sure will have new models out, which does not mean much as most of them did not get their last years showings out yet.

To me te tilta max armor man 2 looks promising. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

I've tried most of them...current using the Tiltamaax Armorman version 1 - however I have the V2 extension arms - which are replaceable by the user for V1 owners. Trying to get my hands on the complete V2 version.

The great thing about the armor man - now with the newer arm design - is it's the least limiting, yes has the most flexibility. You can go way up over your head, then down low (just need to bend your knees a bit). The closest thing to this is an easy rig/ready rig allowing the height versatility, but I've tried those, and still think the armor man beats them. The RR has you bound to the gimbal..meaning you can't do handoffs easily...maybe they came out with a new attachment I'm not aware of? The easy rig is great...but you have the main rod sticking up...all the time...which limits where you can even take the thing. The armoman fits through standard doorways with your arms extended, plus, it feels like you're more one with the rig..or the rig is an extension of your arms. It also is the best in terms of dampening that vertical movement that plagues gimbals. Once you get the spring tension right...you get really nice results.

It will be interesting to see what NAB 2016 brings in terms of gimbal support devices. Most of these devices essentially turn gimbals into a steadicam type device, transferring most, if not all, the weight to your lower back. In terms of flexibility, it's still best to run without one of these types of devices and just use your arms as suspension, but after a take or 2, you need a break. The cool thing about all these devices though, especially tilta's offering, is you can now more easily replicate a dolly shot since it helps stabilize the camera vertically.




 
From our side of things, I d say that the only limiting thing on the Easy rig + Serene + puppeteer is if you are tall over 5.8 that MIGHT be a problem going through a normal door , BUT , you can still bend your knees a little, and have no problem, so far I havent seen one that came to us with big probs. . Of course you cannot use the Gimbal inverted because of the string,

here are the pros

1) you can RUN full speed at low mode and when I say low mode I mean camera lens 15cm from the floor, and you can do that at any angle, looking side wise 90 degrees or even looking back.

2) you can do steadicam style circular shots going round your subject with out having to walk side wise, since you can have the gimbal looking al together at 90 degrees.

3) you can go from low to the highest possible mode that the rig allows you , and thats eye level walking or running in one fluid move.

4) with the quick release hook we offer you can do hand offs to any other op, that can take the rig in bear hands or another easy rig,

5) You can have the best possible vertical stabilization using the Serene arm exceptional smoothness.

6) if you also use the Puppeteer to the compo, you only loose 15mm -20mm height to the original easyrig + Serene, but you can have absolutely no vibrations having your monitor viewing stable and the control of your gimbal just by using your finger tips.

7) you can do Don Juan moves and fluid moves from Don Juan ( looking back ) to side and front shots in One fluid move with out having to walk backwards, that means that you can run up the stairs while being ahead of your subject with the camera looking back.

8) you can take really steep turns in and out narrow paths and doorways with minimum space , I d like to see that from an exoskeleton.

Some of the above need practice as most pro rigs do, but they are totally doable.

I think that the easyrig - Serene or even Easyrig +Serene + Puppeteer can take any exoskeleton any time for multi shot use, compos and speed .and they arent limiting your weight range, since the compo can take total 20kgr of load camera and gimbal and can be tuned in 1 min.

try it will be at NAB 2016 as it has been around most shows in Europe since 2014. You have nothing to loose.

here is some good example for those who missed it

 
The big bugbear with the Serene is the height doing head-height shots in low ceiling rooms. It's not so much about the height of the op and more about the height of the talent.

For everything else it's pretty amazing.

Don't forget the old Steadicam sled as a mounting option. It works very well and allows head hight shots without any added height and with a MoVI you can boom all the way down to the ground in dual operator mode (or smooth lock mode single user).

I haven't tried the exo rigs but I wonder what the advantage is over the single arm, which can be built out to support the same way the exo rig does. If anyone can chime in on the pros/cons that'd be great.
 
Brett Harrison said:
The big bugbear with the Serene is the height doing head-height shots in low ceiling rooms. It's not so much about the height of the op and more about the height of the talent.

For everything else it's pretty amazing.

Don't forget the old Steadicam sled as a mounting option. It works very well and allows head hight shots without any added height and with a MoVI you can boom all the way down to the ground in dual operator mode (or smooth lock mode single user).

I haven't tried the exo rigs but I wonder what the advantage is over the single arm, which can be built out to support the same way the exo rig does. If anyone can chime in on the pros/cons that'd be great.
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Well yes and No. You will always find the occasional restricted height of a room, or a restricted width of a door way. What I meant to say about the height of the operator , is that if you are for example 6 ft, the easyrig will be mounted higher on your body in comparison with an operator that is 5.6 if you want to keep the same analogy of the easyrig arm sticking above your head so that means that the over all set up will be higher. As about the talent , the easyrig Serene can do eye level shots taking as eye level line your eye level, so...if the talent is 6ft and you are 5.6 I guess you are screwed,

But let me tell you this because many people seem to overlook this. What the higher mode of each rig is , is the mode height that the arms, or whatever else supports the load are WORKABLE AND FUNCTION-ABLE. What I mean by that is that you get the same performance in vertical stabilization as you would have in medium mode or low mode, it has to work as well in all modes. Im saying that because I see many rigs claiming that they can go over eye level, but the operator either supports the weight of the rig , or most of the weight with his arms to achieve that, or, in steadicam type arms, the arms are totally boomed up at their limits, meaning that they will bottom end in a sudden move and same goes for low mode. Pull your steadicam arm all the way bottom down and hit the end and try do violent moves. So we need to define this, because if the case is to just showcase a rig over head with the operator holding the rig with his arms, then I can just lift the rig as well over the serene arm , pulling up and to the front and voila I can go OVER the Serene arm.

about gimbals and steadicam - I would only use Roll or maybe roll and tilt if I had the ability to lock the tilt when not needed and always locked pan. There is no point stabilizing axis extra if they are already superbly stable by the steadicam devise and its way more accurate to frame with less limitation in moves.

One arm support - Im designing something around that , but its not as easy as you think and though Tiffen already showcase their version for gimbals, unfortunately it adds a lot of size on the side of the op and also cannot work in various angles, thats why Im making a very special rig. Not sure when this will be done but it will be a unique system .

eye level with Serene +easyrig+ Puppeteer +Ronin at 1.46 of the interview bellow

 
Hi Constantine,

Thanks for that info, and I agree pretty much with everything there. I have filmed 6ft where I am 5'11 and one can move the height of the Easyrig arm up and own depending on the situation to add more room to boom up but only if there's room in the building.

With the sled, you can vary the height (and get very high) easily by starting with a long sled and then using the tilt axis of the Steadicam gimbal to access the mid range and low mode in one shot, without having to build around it from shot to shot. The one axis I'd like to eliminate from Steadicam is the roll axis because if you need to move the camera laterally you can just move your body - the roll axis is the most redundant once the movi is in play. The tilt axis allows for jib-like booming, instant mid range without building for it, low mode - all in one shot. I've shot like this it's wonderful. Pan and tilt are best handled by a remote operator in this kind of setup.

Starts at 1:00 here's Larry McConkey's useage of it (latter with dual operator on wheels)

https://vimeo.com/91559599

Here's a shot with Steadicam and MoVI I operated dual user with Mimic on a fluid head.

https://vimeo.com/156126288.

I operated on a feature film with a fantastic DP on the wheels - 90 percent dual user, and Majestic for very tricky/fast stuff. If we'd had the Mimic it would have been more like 99 percent (using fluid head).

Hope to catch you at NAB Constantine :-)
 
Brett Harrison said:
Hi Constantine,

Thanks for that info, and I agree pretty much with everything there. I have filmed 6ft where I am 5'11 and one can move the height of the Easyrig arm up and own depending on the situation to add more room to boom up but only if there's room in the building.

With the sled, you can vary the height (and get very high) easily by starting with a long sled and then using the tilt axis of the Steadicam gimbal to access the mid range and low mode in one shot, without having to build around it from shot to shot. The one axis I'd like to eliminate from Steadicam is the roll axis because if you need to move the camera laterally you can just move your body - the roll axis is the most redundant once the movi is in play. The tilt axis allows for jib-like booming, instant mid range without building for it, low mode - all in one shot. I've shot like this it's wonderful. Pan and tilt are best handled by a remote operator in this kind of setup.

Starts at 1:00 here's Larry McConkey's useage of it (latter with dual operator on wheels)

https://vimeo.com/91559599

Here's a shot with Steadicam and MoVI I operated dual user with Mimic on a fluid head.

https://vimeo.com/156126288.

I operated on a feature film with a fantastic DP on the wheels - 90 percent dual user, and Majestic for very tricky/fast stuff. If we'd had the Mimic it would have been more like 99 percent (using fluid head).

Hope to catch you at NAB Constantine :-)
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hey Brett , Im not gonna hit Nab , but Peter and Micke weill be there.

I know Larry has bought pretty much everything we have build so far, including the new Black arm, he is a man of innovation and looks fwd into technology.

fly safe.
 
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