frustrating meeting with Post houses

[Glen Powell]

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!

I think I've sat in that same post house and had that same conversation… several times over the years. Right back to a shoot years ago when I wanted to use an HVX200 at Everest Base Camp (obviously didn't want to carry a bigger camera, tapes, etc) but the post house didn't want me to shoot P2 in HD because: "We don't have enough hard drive space to handle the files"; so I did the edit with the agency on a laptop in a cabin beside the fire during our descent.

Humans are lazy and want the path of least resistance.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The success of Arri's Alexa is build upon Red's weaknesses and, of course, the very good reputation Arri always had in the industry.

Red's RAW workflow IS difficult to understand. The ISO thing that is only virtual metadata is beyond the brains of thousands of DPs, producers and directors. I've met quite a few colleagues that shot tons of stuff with the Red successfully although they never really understood the concept behind the compressed RAW workflow. The only reason why they don't screw up things is that they follow Red's advise and dial in ISO 800 and RedGamma3.

Then RedCineXPro. There are so many variables to tweak, color sciences to chose from, gamma curves no one understands. What's the differences between RedLog and RedLogFilm? Half good, half premium, full or quarter? RedCineProX is NOT made for the 55 year old DP that is forced to shoot digital. It's geekery for the colourist. I haven't met one single DIT that really knew how to deal with RedCineC Pro. In this forum people are red-centric, hardcore freaks, RAW nerds. And even here you read the same questions again and again. No wonder that outside reduser the situations is hardly better.

Posthouses hate to take responsibly for the quality of camera footage. Traditionally not their realm. Hence they use the camera metadata. They use funky metadata settings, even if they don't make sense at all. Mostly they even don't know that something can be changed dramatically to the better. Only a very few understand Red's concept. Who's fault is that? The post house's? Hardly. They been around many, many years BEFORE Red entered the market 4 years ago - and there is finally an alternative: Alexa.

Alexa is easy as it gets. If the footage is crap it's the DP. No transcoding, nothing. And if the DP argues that the Alexa's DR is a tad wider it's hard to prove him otherwise.

Now resolution. Fact is that only a very few projects need more resolution than 1080p. That will change in the future but not tomorrow or in 2 years. Post workflows are build upon 1080p. It took almost a decade to complete the tradition from SD to HD, it will take another decade to make the same happen with HD to 4K. There isn't even a broadcast standard for 4K yet. Only the very small market of films for the big screen will adopt 4k sooner than later.

A ProRes module by Red would solve all that.

Hans

 

[Brian Merlen]

True, but the next firmware should fix that, and a 6 percent crop in really isn't that big a deal I think...I guess for some people it is

That's not entirely true...yet. Yes, you can record it but if a client asks you to deliver 16:9 without black borders, you can't without transcoding. This is about to be a moot point I think because RED is working on it and about to deliver it from what we've been told.

As for why people care so much about Alexa, you have to ask yourself why people care so much about any camera. It comes down to many things. It's not always about price. It's not always about workflow. It's not always about pristine image quality. Line up five of the top DPs in the world right now and ask them what they will shoot their next feature on. You're in for a very interesting conversation.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

... and a 6 percent crop in really isn't that big a deal I think...I guess for some people it is

Haha. A 6% crop is the world. I can tell my clients on set that the small letterbox is later gone... it's much more a video assists, you know.... But in the rushes? For get it.

Hans

 

[Ruff]

I don't know what the solution is... but for whatever reason, working with Alexa is perceived to be easy, Red is perceived to be hard.

Now, we know thats not true.

But this is essentially a marketing problem, a branding problem.

Red needs to change the perception in the marketplace.

I don't know how.... maybe give Al Ries a call? http://www.ries.com/

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I don't know what the solution is... but for whatever reason, working with Alexa is perceived to be easy, Red is perceived to be hard.

Now, we know thats not true. http://www.ries.com/

No. It's true.

Download the file form Alexa's SSD card and your are off to edit, feed Flame, Baselight and whatnot. No transcoding, instant access. And frankly the LogC curve is very good, so is the colour science and for 1080p the resolution.

The reason why I did not leave Red's train is that Epic is much smaller and lighter, I have more resolution to play with and, of course, 120 fps in 4KHD. Actually with the Epic I'm there when 4 years ago I switched from the 435 to digital, but in a much better form factor.

Hans

 

[Bruce Allen]

Yep, it's not hard to make the argument for Alexa.

It's not just extremely easy, but also extremely easy to explain. Three options:

1. You just want pretty, edit-ready, 709 color space files out of the camera in crisp, full HD? No problem!

2. You want dynamic range and grade-ability? How about we give you Log images with 12-13 usable stops in an edit-ready format out of the camera? Anyone who understands log film scans can grade these. BTW, here's a website they can go to where they can download LUTs for every single post program.

3. You want RAW? Here you go. It's a bit of a hassle, but not as CPU-intensive or confusing as RED.

Anyone want to have a go at explaining RED workflow in a similar way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Yep, it's not hard to make the argument for Alexa.

It's not just extremely easy, but also extremely easy to explain. Three options:

1. You just want pretty, edit-ready, 709 color space files out of the camera in crisp, full HD? No problem!

2. You want dynamic range and grade-ability? How about we give you Log images with 12-13 usable stops in an edit-ready format out of the camera? Anyone who understands log film scans can grade these. BTW, here's a website they can go to where they can download LUTs for every single post program.

3. You want RAW? Here you go. It's a bit of a hassle, but not as CPU-intensive or confusing as RED.

Anyone want to have a go at explaining RED workflow in a similar way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

All excellent points.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As Scarlet projects begin to appear, and folks outside of the industry begin making images of quality with them, NOBODY on the inside is going to be willing to cop to the notion that Red is beyond their skills or understanding. Nobody. I don't mean to wander onto conversations like; there will be a million ugly pieces of shit for every one good looking shot, or anything of that nature. All it is going to take is a few talented ameteurs to produce anything of note to shut up the naysaying elite. It can and will happen. That's my prediction.

 

[Colin Hubick]

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!

As a fellow VFX super, I hear what your saying, best advice is to stick to the upsides Red has to offer. In our shop, we make great use of the 4k elements, even if it's a 2k finish. We all kinda cringe at the thought of 1080p ProRes material for our working media. We would much rather have the option, then a take or leave it situation.

best of luck Bob.

Colin

 

[Ruff]

The above are all excellent points, and completely true.

I went with Red because of the size, quality, price.

I come from a Camera Department background, and I can see the appeal onset with the Alexa.

I shot with the Alexa just last week, it was excellent as always.

The post houses that I prefer are the smaller boutique ones, (who's staff often worked for the big old established ones before going out on their own). I find that they are very well informed and very helpful. They are also affordable.

But when I am talking with some producers that want to stick with their known post companies. It's a battle to push Red. If I can direct the post to my smaller guys then it's all easy and great!

 

[Björn Benckert]

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!

I run a post house and I understand.

If you where pushing for 4k, then the work load for post will increase between 4-16 times depending on the amount of CG and such... that is in comparison to HD.

So what I do in an hour on the flame in HD most likely takes 4 hours to 2 days in 4k...

So when you approach him with your epic it's kind of the same as if the producer told you: -"look it's not one film I want you to shoot it's 16 films... but the payment will be the same..."

Then maybe you would, look at the guy as if he was not serious and give him a comment about his sunglasses or such...

I love those cameras an the picture they deliver but I think it's not something to force upon people. Life in 4k is sweet when shooting editing or grading... but for CG those extra pixels are super tough to make. Render time's get crazy and nobody wants to pay for the additional work. So basically the computer power has not picked up with the cameras just yet.

I say that and we got quite a render farm, the fastest flame you can find etc. Still we avoid 4k work as much as we can, saying that I just committed to a Roy Andersen 4k/ MX feature yesterday... and told him.. "why do you not shoot it with our Epic" Stupid I know.

 

[Ben Pluimer]

I tried to bring Red cameras onto a show for a major broadcast network (who already has a few shows shot on Red).

The show would be edited in house at the production company. I told them we would shoot 4kHD, and deliver transcoded Avid DNXHD files at the end of each day, to make the workflow easy for post. I was shot down. "Artifacting" was the reason they told me we couldn't use Reds. Ditto for F3 and Alexa. It was a b.s. excuse, but since I was the only one familiar with the workflow, I didn't have a lot of pull. Even emails from Ted and Michael Cioni couldn't convince them that we could do it this way. We are now shooting the show on Panasonic HDX900s at 720p.

To me "artifacting" is one of the problems we (and Red) have to overcome. Not actual issues with the images, but issues with some people's conceptions about the cameras and workflow. It takes quite a bit to convince someone that Red can be a simple, high quality camera and workflow. On the other hand, it takes very little to convince them that Red is a hulking beast with insurmountable issues. Part of it's a PR thing, part of it actually is a workflow thing (a Prores/DNX Module could be a game changer, even if it goes against the purpose of the camera: 4K Raw).

I'd love a simplified, stripped down version of RedCine that I could have producers, directors, and editors download and use. Something that has pre-set looks, and codecs without all the extras (like curves, alchemy, etc.). I haven't tried their new R3D viewer, so that might be most of what I'm asking for: simple R3d Viewing. Simple dailies (as in select a drop down codec, quality, & push a button, all on one screen) might be nice too. You can't satisfy everyone, so I think the PR war just needs to be fought, and info needs to keep getting into hands of the people who make decisions.

 

[Bill Anderson]

This all pretty much fits with what Francis Kenny says on the Recon ACES thread. If Mr. Kenny has to push that hard for Epic, and its beautiful qualities, I can only imagine how difficult it must generally be. RED is winning the big battles, it seems, but losing many skirmishes. ????

 

[Ruff]

Personally I would love a proxy file to be included with each clip. Even with a massive timecode window and clip number burnt right through the frame.

That alone would ease so many of the concerns.

 

[Bob Gundu]

The big argument the facility is making towards the traditional film guys is that Alexa looks way more filmic then RED. I wonder if that may be that the larger budget shows that are using Alexa, are simply working it like a proper film set. Essentially good cinematography = good images. I went back and opened the first stuff I shot with my scarlet, and already my settings for better looking images have changed drastically from what I did then. Plus, what I know now for how to get the best out of the sensor has improved. There is definitely a case for working on Arri files with little tweaking - makes good business sense. I think the new RED Gammas are definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[Chris Parker]

we just wrapped a rather large movie (largest budget canada has ever seen actually) where we provided full red epic workflow services and things are looking great.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The big argument the facility is making towards the traditional film guys is that Alexa looks way more filmic then RED. I wonder if that may be that the larger budget shows that are using Alexa, are simply working it like a proper film set. Essentially good cinematography = good images. I went back and opened the first stuff I shot with my scarlet, and already my settings for better looking images have changed drastically from what I did then. Plus, what I know now for how to get the best out of the sensor has improved. There is definitely a case for working on Arri files with little tweaking - makes good business sense. I think the new RED Gammas are definitely a step in the right direction.

1) Alexa has some built-in filtration that can be "filmic"
2) "filmic" is really in the lighting and cinematography. Really.
3) REDLogFilm is easier and quicker to grade than Log C.
4) RG3/RC3 are no excuses for a great "out of the camera" look.

Graeme

 

[M Most]

1) Alexa has some built-in filtration that can be "filmic"
2) "filmic" is really in the lighting and cinematography. Really.
3) REDLogFilm is easier and quicker to grade than Log C.
4) RG3/RC3 are no excuses for a great "out of the camera" look.

Graeme

1. Probably true. I wouldn't argue with that.

2. Mostly true, although I would say that "filmic" is in the eye of the beholder and their own personal definitions and prejudices.

3. No, it's not. Neither one is particularly difficult if you understand how to set up a proper log grading pipeline, but Red is dependent on other transcode settings being correct and appropriate. And since I'm a colorist and Graeme, well, isn't, I think I can say that with at least a modicum of authority... :smile:

4. I'm not a shooter, at least not most of the time, so I'll defer on that one.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Mike with regards 3) the much lower contrast of Log C is something I and others I've spoken to find harder to grade with. It is indeed a bit subjective though. What is more objective is the added complexity in linearizing log C for VFX work due to each ISO having it's own equation.

Graeme