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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

frustrating meeting with Post houses

Graeme, Why can't we have something like LogC in the epics? as an alternative
I Find the LogC to be default "log", when I trough a lut editor on it and just the preset "log to lin" I see the set on my screen. When I do the same with REDLogFilm i see red, then do some tweaking and then I get close to home. I think it would be vice to have both.
 
REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes (which Log C does not). It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes. It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Except for After Effects, which has awful settings as default for log2lin...

Hence I just use the Arri LogC LUT which you can download from their site.

Yes, I could concoct a good LUT, but VFX artists themselves are not really supposed to do that. We like to use a standard, if it is available.

This is why I think RED should provide a LUT, like Arri does.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Graeme Nattress said:
REDLogFilm works well, makes great images and adheres to the standard for such "cineon" log encodes (which Log C does not). It linearizes correctly with the default settings in compositing apps too with their log2lin nodes.

Graeme
Click to expand...


Even In flame?

It would be nice to go to LogC when mixing with german HD material or such... :)
 
Bruce, I don't have any idea where Adobe get their defaults for cineon interpretation from. They should be black=95, white=685 and gamma = 0.6, which happens to be the defaults in Nuke and Shake. Luts are not the best things for linearizing cineon code values into floating point linear light space. You can see that for yourself in Shake:

Take a RLF file, add a float node, then log2lin. You'll get a very linear light looking image, so add a gamma (about 2.2) node to see it better on your monitor and you get a reasonable image.
Take a LogC file, add a float node, then Arri's LogC 2 Linear LUT (pick the right one for your ISO, in my case ISO800). You'll get a very dark looking image, so add a gamma (about 2.2) node to see it better on your monitor and you are left with a wrong looking image.

You can see exactly why this happens because the LUT has a max output value of 1024 say, but the math of the inverse log curve should be putting the highlights around 4.0 so by being an integer LUT, it gives you an image about 1/4 as bright as it should be.

From what I can see, the Adobe cineon math works if you tell it to use gamma 0.6 but I'd appreciate an Adobe linear light compositing expert to check that out. I know both Nuke and Shake work correctly with default settings.

For Flame I'll have to ask Autodesk as I don't have that app here to test.

As for how RLF works - it's very first outing for test was at Co3 for the grading of Pirates 4. We just slapped on one of their default film print emulation luts and the resulting image was correct and pleasing - in other words one of their standard PFE luts worked great because RLF is engineered correctly to spec.

Graeme
 
Graeme - I agree that it works great in Nuke.

However in After Effects: Adobe's 32bit linear light compositing works great in theory but is awful in practice. It's very slow and when you RAM preview, they store the full 32-bit values in RAM... so you can only view a few seconds. Also, it has a terrible color management mode which tries and fails to do the color management in realtime, meaning you can't get realtime playback even on a fast 8-core Mac Pro with tons of RAM.

So we work 90% of the time in 16bit mode, not linear.

In that workflow, it is definitely easier to work with Alexa footage:
1. Create an adjustment layer on the top with the 3D LUT effect, with Arri LUT from their website
2. Do compositing
3. When you want to render out: turn off the LUT and hit render
4. Finisher imports your file and it drops in perfectly with all the other LogC stuff

That's why I suggest a standard LUT for After Effects, Flame etc, downloadable from the Red website would be awesome.

Even if the LUT isn't perfect, that's fine. Most of the time we just use it for viewing.

Arri has changed their LUTs over time to match color science changes (they're now on version 3) and that's cool - I can just choose what version I want to download and I'm good.

Graeme Nattress said:
As for how RLF works - it's very first outing for test was at Co3 for the grading of Pirates 4. We just slapped on one of their default film print emulation luts and the resulting image was correct and pleasing - in other words one of their standard PFE luts worked great because RLF is engineered correctly to spec.
Click to expand...

Yes, RedLogFilm currently works well for big post houses, who have their own LUTs.

Anyway, need to try RedLogFilm in After Effects with Cineon Converter set to 0.6 gamma.

But I mean... the only way I know to do this is because I am on this thread on RedUser.

99% of the other small post houses just get RED footage and have no clue, sadly.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Ah, you want a view LUT..... Working on that for you.

AE Linear light is a bit funky for sure :-)

Graeme
 
hey.. its hard for me to agree with Alexa PRO RES workflow as Im a RED man....

But PRORES workflow is all I need. I can see the attraction for sure... Especially if it was a 4k PRORES with the REDLOGFILM log look.

I do all my R3D post in house.. I also get screwed when people transcoding my R3D's to some crap DPX lut... hate it hate it hate it....
 
I have the same issues with Toronto Post houses, Bob. I used to love working with them. Historically, there have been some great graders in this town. But now, most of these houses just generate horrible prores one-lights with baked in colours and then try to grade that. Then when they can't do a good job with that they blame the cmera or the DP. I just end up grading it in house because I've lost all faith in them.

However, this is a reality. We need simple solutions for situations like this. Unfortunately some of them just aren't there yet.


Bob Gundu said:
Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!
Click to expand...
 
Bruce Allen said:
However in After Effects: Adobe's 32bit linear light compositing works great in theory but is awful in practice. It's very slow and when you RAM preview, they store the full 32-bit values in RAM... so you can only view a few seconds. Also, it has a terrible color management mode which tries and fails to do the color management in realtime, meaning you can't get realtime playback even on a fast 8-core Mac Pro with tons of RAM.

So we work 90% of the time in 16bit mode, not linear.
Click to expand...
I found this one out the hard way. :-)
 
Sorry life is frustrating in Toronto Bob, having worked at some VFX house I'm surprised that it's gone that way. However the bright side is that we don't need post houses for much longer. The future is soon to be online 4k edits with digital deliveries. Tape was the big thing us back. My distribute told me this week they are going tapeless, and I have been doing that partly with networks for a while. With the new BMD hyper deck (for those whole feel the need for a deck like machine) and hard drive delivery, the future is ours.
 
The Ironic thing is every Alexa show I've worked on still does a transcode to a 709 corrected editing proxy and then goes back to the Prores 444 Log-c for the finish. I just finished an Epic pilot with Encore and they really have it down (They do "Justified" too).
With a post house that actually wants it to work, the workflow is as simple if not simpler than the Alexa and the image quality and "cinematic" feel is better. For my own 1080 projects i've been spitting out a prores LT editing proxy and a redlog/RC3 Prores 444 file final grading at the same time.
 
Mike Most, for all of us less experienced would-be colorists, what transcode settings do you recommend to ensure correct and appropriate log grading?

A great director/DP I know does all his edits in-house, his own editors, techs and workstations, his own hand deciding the color, clients are happy with no heavy post overhead, he makes more $ and has complete creative control... when I mentioned this to him he just sort of wondered "I never understood why people do it any other way."
 
Bob,

We have worked on 3 or 4 films now with Alexa footage.. it does look beautiful.. However, in regards to pulling keys, we routinely ask for the raw files and convert them ourselves to 1080p to avoid edge issues. Productions usually choose to de-bayer to larger resolutions because in screenings it looks sharper. Any green screens or blue screens will suffer from aliasing and sharpening effects on edges. Do some comparison tests if you have a chance.

For anyone wondering.. the reason for these issues derives from the fact that most bayer pattern sensors resolve to an "actual resolution" smaller than the stated resolution of the sensor.

I have not yet noticed these sharpening and aliasing issues with RED footage yet.. I assume its because the de-bayer algorithms are more advanced? ...
 
Timur Civan said:
Well at least they said R1 is ok......

Production company i work with forbids the epic/scarlet/R1. Alexa, F35, 35mm or F3(444) only.

They dont even want F65... so weird.
Click to expand...

The Old Fart Patrol is coming your way, and they are on horseback!
 
Michael Dalton said:
Sorry life is frustrating in Toronto Bob, having worked at some VFX house I'm surprised that it's gone that way. However the bright side is that we don't need post houses for much longer. The future is soon to be online 4k edits with digital deliveries. Tape was the big thing us back. My distribute told me this week they are going tapeless, and I have been doing that partly with networks for a while. With the new BMD hyper deck (for those whole feel the need for a deck like machine) and hard drive delivery, the future is ours.
Click to expand...

YIKES!!! NO!!! I would DIE having to do all my VFX myself. I would never sleep again. I am doing that now (long story) and it is a HORRIBLE experience. Give me a room full of geniuses any day (Like Rodeo FX here in Montreal). They are full time pros, not DPs like me trying to piece together something in my spare time. VFX is WAY more than online.
 
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