Focus on Focus

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

So the Komodo is an absolutely amazing camera, unreal what red has done putting such quality in a tiny body with global shutter, red control and the list goes on.

However I do have a tiny rant and some ideas for RED, and this is coming from a solo operator, run and gun to the max shooter. I think RED is somewhat ignoring one of the main things to creating a good image, nailing focus. I realize that they are working hard to get autofocus working better which is great. However I think they need to, at the very least create a thumbwheel with record button that plugs into ext port for control of autofocus lens motors. Better yet, if possible, make this thumbwheel wireless running of red control? They should also consider making a wireless motor for manual lenses that communicates with said wireless thumbwheel. I also realize there are tons of third party companies working on things like this, but everything RED makes is just better and more solid.

It would be ideal if these thumbwheels, and redlink the app in general, worked kind of like the apple airpods do. Turn the red on and you can set the camera to automatically pop the redlink app up on the phone and have it be connected. Would be great if they do make this wireless thumbwheel if the same thing were to happen. Turn on thumbwheel and it automatically connects to the Komodo.

Another thing I was thinking RED could perhaps do for now is make a redlinked focus slider for the apple watch along with a solid mount for it. Although I think a physical thumbwheel with record button, like what RT-motion has, would be best. I think this thumbwheel should both have a small battery in it and be powered/charged/updated via usb-C like DJI raven eye is.

In the future I think one way RED could really crush the competition is if they either created a module or built 3D focus tech right into their cameras. I am sitting here debating on if I want to order DJI's 3d focus tech, but looking at cables flying every direction is not at all appealing. Anything a camera company can do to eliminate cables is a huge bonus IMO.

While I am at it, a few other ways red can crush competition:

1) Build ND's into camera body
2) Figure out a way to have less sensor crop when going to high frame rates (even if it means lower bit rate)
3) Slightly higher frame-rates
4) I think the TB-50 battery would be the ideal camera battery, enough voltage to power everything and anything. Perhaps back to the battery module so one could choose tb-50 or canon batts.

Thoughts?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

1) Build ND's into camera body
2) Figure out a way to have less sensor crop when going to high frame rates (even if it means lower bit rate)
3) Slightly higher frame-rates
4) I think the TB-50 battery would be the ideal camera battery, enough voltage to power everything and anything. Perhaps back to the battery module so one could choose tb-50 or canon batts.

Thoughts?

1. There's not much space for that, it's in the adapter already if you want.
2. But then it's not RAW anymore. RAW is RAW, if you crop, it's not RAW anymore but instead processed. You need to understand RAW before talking about crop.
3. Will bump the pricepoint to double or triple with this tech. A global shutter with 16 stops is something no one else has. It's probably because of processing power and that it's a global shutter that limits the camera. Others don't even have a global shutter.
4. Or just use a module for V-Lock batteries if you need? The current batteries can be taken on a plane for travel, which is always a tricky thing with larger capacity batteries.

Key thing here, cropping is done because of RAW. Anyone else claiming their camera use RAW when they have in-camera processing is lying about RAW, period.
The rest is basically there if you want it, adapter and modules gives you both other batteries and NDs.

 

[Steve Wall]

1.
2. But then it's not RAW anymore. RAW is RAW, if you crop, it's not RAW anymore but instead processed. You need to understand RAW before talking about crop.

RE: crop factor.. sure, it's not proper raw in the true sense of the word, but if a scaled down full sensor output was possible, and came at a minimal IQ loss (lets say 5%) i'd imagine most people would happily accept that compromise to utilise the beauty of full sensor output.

You end up with a compromised image shooting down at 4K/5K for decent HFR on Helium + Monstro anyway, noise and a loss of DOF are significantly detrimental to the end result.

I'm not across the real world results of the BM 12K sensor and bRaw doing this, but if they have managed to do this without significant compromise, and roll out the same option in the Pocket cameras, then Red would be at risk of being left behind badly here - i'd expect this to be addressed in DSMC3.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

RE: crop factor.. sure, it's not proper raw in the true sense of the word, but if a scaled down full sensor output was possible, and came at a minimal IQ loss (lets say 5%) i'd imagine most people would happily accept that compromise to utilise the beauty of full sensor output.

You end up with a compromised image shooting down at 4K/5K for decent HFR on Helium + Monstro anyway, noise and a loss of DOF are significantly detrimental to the end result.

I'm not across the real world results of the BM 12K sensor and bRaw doing this, but if they have managed to do this without significant compromise, and roll out the same option in the Pocket cameras, then Red would be at risk of being left behind badly here - i'd expect this to be addressed in DSMC3.

It's not RAW, at all. There's no "almost RAW", as soon as RAW is processed or changed it is not RAW anymore. That is also in relation to the sensor readout, BM works with lower resolutions, smaller sensors and rolling shutters that have a lower DR. Improving sensors has always been about trying to push the balance between different areas of a sensor. Pushing a global sensor that is capable of 16 stops of DR in a small camera body, might have pushed Red to lower the framerate and change the compression algorithm. We don't know, but it's a logical conclusion.

So whenever people compare to BM or any other company, there's so much misinformation going around. If HFR is something someone is passionate about, then through their bias, they only see this and don't seem to understand how things balance each other out. A small camera body means problems for heat and processing power, less processing power means lower framerates etc. The BM 12K is freakin huge in comparison and let's not forget how unstable their cameras can be, and how much power they draw. Choosing a processor for the camera needs to balance the features in order not to build up too much heat, not to make the camera unstable and so on.

Then when it comes to cropping BM does not do true RAW. This is even spoken about around the time of the Apple vs Red lawsuits where Red won because they have the patent for compressed RAW. BM doesn't have to pay Red for their BRAW, because they essentially don't do RAW, it's processed. So naturally, they can crop and do stuff with their "RAW" because it is not raw. And the compromises show whenever you start grading. All the YouTube videos of people comparing cameras, even iPhones to cinema cameras just sell this misinformation because none of them really digs into why cinema cameras do what they do. They have tricked people into thinking about cameras as "how it looks directly out of the camera", even to the extent that some people show LOG mode between two cameras not seemingly understanding that LOG means nothing before grading.

Comparing Red and BM in terms of grading shows just how lacking their inferior DR and "RAW handling" makes the image. If you get everything right on the day of the shoot, yes, you will get good images, but that is essentially the opposite of what true RAW is supposed to do for you. True RAW opens up the possibility to adjust those problems that happened on set. It's much easier to get a consistent look and a professionally balanced look throughout the project. The drawback? It's not a HFR camera, it's not night vision. There's a reason why Phantom cameras cost the way they do because they do quality images with super-high framerates. They cost that much because it is actually very costly to have a good image, post-capabilities AND high framerates.

With Komodo, the framerates are lower because that's the only way to make this camera, for this price point. It's hard to trust a BM camera to deliver in the same way as a Red camera does because they skipped some areas of the camera design that would have made it cost more. So yes, BM can crop the image and do higher framerates... because they don't do RAW. They have fewer stops of DR. They skipped the OLPF to get cleaner images, creating moire instead.

BM can market their cameras through a spec sheet, Red market through actual performance. If you are a fan of HFR, just go with the BM cameras. There's a lot of compromises and I wouldn't be able to go through a shoot without a constant fear of major camera malfunction, but if you are ok with all that, then use that instead of Red. I like slomo and higher framerates, but 48 fps in 5K (would have wanted 50 but whatever) is enough if that means I get all the other things with this camera.

And I would never accept RAW that is processed.

It's also funny that you mention the compromises of cropping down a Monstro image to get higher framerates, but you can accept all the compromises that BM cameras give you?
A cropped Monstro sensor at 6K is still larger than the sensor you have with a BM camera and the noise comes with the higher DR and will disappear with proper noise reduction and subsampling. All of those things that other cameras do in-camera but people think are "RAW".

Want to compare image quality? Shoot with Red and grade/process the material first, then compare to BM or any other. I'm sick of the misinformation that YouTubers spread around camera technology.

 

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

Christoffer you are missing the main point of this thread, and now I feel like a complete idiot for adding those other things on at the end.

I guess all in all I am just frustrated that the perfect gimbal camera has no way of controlling focus with a thumbwheel and EF lenses as of now. I am sure some company will fix that, but I would rather it be RED that fixed it and did it wirelessly if possible.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Christoffer you are missing the main point of this thread, and now I feel like a complete idiot for adding those other things on at the end.

I guess all in all I am just frustrated that the perfect gimbal camera has no way of controlling focus with a thumbwheel and EF lenses as of now. I am sure some company will fix that, but I would rather it be RED that fixed it and did it wirelessly if possible.

A thumbwheel would be nice but just use cine lenses instead, especially with the DJI lidar focus coming out. And you can control focus on the app as well.

 

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

I realize that Cine lenses and focus motor are an option, just trying to shave off every ounce possible from my gimbal rig and Cine lenses and focus motor does not help. Focus on the app might work but is super awkward.

The rs2 is awesome, but IMO Komodo with two bp-55s necessary for power and balance and phone for focus/monitor is simply to heavy and awkward for a stick gimbal and that’s without Cine lenses and focus motor. Put a tilta gimbal ring or little handles on it would fix the awkwardness, but at that point your probably looking at more then the weight of a MōVI pro with a dscm2 body on it. The 3d focus tech looks awesome but way to many cables flying every direction and I am skeptical, especially after seeing the build quality of rs2 focus motor.

I guess the problems I am having are pretty specific to my style of shooting, none the less I think a red brand wireless focus record thumbwheel for Komodo would be useful for many. My main dilemma is the weight I was hoping to shave off with Komodo is not great enough to justify, at least until freefly or DJI come out with a gimbal designed for Komodo. That gimbal would hopefully both power Komodo and tap into the new red protocol though Ext port, plus have focus zoom thumbwheel and motors that were solid.

Also regarding nd’s built into camera, main reason that would be cool is for rf lenses...once they are supported. If canon can do it on c70 it has to be possible on Komodo. Regarding tb-50 batts, I really think Komodo should be designed around them, nothing you say will change that. 8bay rapid charger, heaters built in, over charge protection, price, voltage for everything, and the fact that they are already owned by most red users that are shooting on gimbal... it’s a no brainer imo. Of course red would need to check with DJI that they could fulfill supply, seems like canon was not prepared, or perhaps that’s just COVID related.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I realize that Cine lenses and focus motor are an option, just trying to shave off every ounce possible from my gimbal rig and Cine lenses and focus motor does not help. Focus on the app might work but is super awkward.

The rs2 is awesome, but IMO Komodo with two bp-55s necessary for power and balance and phone for focus/monitor is simply to heavy and awkward for a stick gimbal and that’s without Cine lenses and focus motor. Put a tilta gimbal ring or little handles on it would fix the awkwardness, but at that point your probably looking at more then the weight of a MōVI pro with a dscm2 body on it. The 3d focus tech looks awesome but way to many cables flying every direction and I am skeptical, especially after seeing the build quality of rs2 focus motor.

I guess the problems I am having are pretty specific to my style of shooting, none the less I think a red brand wireless focus record thumbwheel for Komodo would be useful for many. My main dilemma is the weight I was hoping to shave off with Komodo is not great enough to justify, at least until freefly or DJI come out with a gimbal designed for Komodo. That gimbal would hopefully both power Komodo and tap into the new red protocol though Ext port, plus have focus zoom thumbwheel and motors that were solid.

Also regarding nd’s built into camera, main reason that would be cool is for rf lenses...once they are supported. If canon can do it on c70 it has to be possible on Komodo. Regarding tb-50 batts, I really think Komodo should be designed around them, nothing you say will change that. 8bay rapid charger, heaters built in, over charge protection, price, voltage for everything, and the fact that they are already owned by most red users that are shooting on gimbal... it’s a no brainer imo. Of course red would need to check with DJI that they could fulfill supply, seems like canon was not prepared, or perhaps that’s just COVID related.

But why do you bother with using Komodo at all? It's small, but it's still a cinema camera, it's not a DSLR or any of those kinds of cameras with those kinds of features. The C70, the FX6 etc. are more or less the old definition of video cameras, like the old DVX100. Red is first and foremost a cine camera, aimed for use with cinema gear. This means that while it does work with still lenses, AF system etc. etc. there's no going around the fact that it's primarily supposed to go with cine lenses. The main setup with RS2 is a focus gearhead and cine lenses.

What you are describing is an A7SIII with still lenses, Sony AF and the smaller DJI gimbal. That will never happen with Komodo, it's not its purpose.

 

[Steve Wall]

But why do you bother with using Komodo at all? It's small, but it's still a cinema camera, it's not a DSLR or any of those kinds of cameras with those kinds of features. The C70, the FX6 etc. are more or less the old definition of video cameras, like the old DVX100. Red is first and foremost a cine camera, aimed for use with cinema gear. This means that while it does work with still lenses, AF system etc. etc. there's no going around the fact that it's primarily supposed to go with cine lenses. The main setup with RS2 is a focus gearhead and cine lenses.

What you are describing is an A7SIII with still lenses, Sony AF and the smaller DJI gimbal. That will never happen with Komodo, it's not its purpose.

I think you're looking at very one dimensionally if you think it needs to be used with cine lenses. If small form factor and high image quality is the game by all means get an Otus, Sigma Art or whatever on there, using a cine lens isn't always the way.

It's a bummer the RS2 doesn't have solid camera powering options.. was going to suggest a Nucleus Nano as potentially the easiest solution for single op focus. Obviously cheap as and not the strongest motors but it doesn't matter if you're driving stills glass or lighter cine lenses. Nice to integrate with the Nucleus M handgrips if you have that kit already too.

Could always power the Komodo off a handgrip mounted battery too, but another expensive and fragile cable isn't necessarily that much of an improvement from just keeping it on the camera package.

 

[Eric Haase]

I realize that Cine lenses and focus motor are an option, just trying to shave off every ounce possible from my gimbal rig and Cine lenses and focus motor does not help. Focus on the app might work but is super awkward.

The rs2 is awesome, but IMO Komodo with two bp-55s necessary for power and balance and phone for focus/monitor is simply to heavy and awkward for a stick gimbal and that’s without Cine lenses and focus motor. Put a tilta gimbal ring or little handles on it would fix the awkwardness, but at that point your probably looking at more then the weight of a MōVI pro with a dscm2 body on it. The 3d focus tech looks awesome but way to many cables flying every direction and I am skeptical, especially after seeing the build quality of rs2 focus motor.

I guess the problems I am having are pretty specific to my style of shooting, none the less I think a red brand wireless focus record thumbwheel for Komodo would be useful for many. My main dilemma is the weight I was hoping to shave off with Komodo is not great enough to justify, at least until freefly or DJI come out with a gimbal designed for Komodo. That gimbal would hopefully both power Komodo and tap into the new red protocol though Ext port, plus have focus zoom thumbwheel and motors that were solid.

Also regarding nd’s built into camera, main reason that would be cool is for rf lenses...once they are supported. If canon can do it on c70 it has to be possible on Komodo. Regarding tb-50 batts, I really think Komodo should be designed around them, nothing you say will change that. 8bay rapid charger, heaters built in, over charge protection, price, voltage for everything, and the fact that they are already owned by most red users that are shooting on gimbal... it’s a no brainer imo. Of course red would need to check with DJI that they could fulfill supply, seems like canon was not prepared, or perhaps that’s just COVID related.

I just shot a couple days with Komodo, RS2, EF lenses. RS2 handled the Komodo perfectly- wasn't awkward at all. We had a Nucleus follow focus system but we didn't even use it after trying out pulling focus with the Redcontrol app. It worked great- I've watched everything back on my 24" Flanders monitor at full debayer and he nailed focus on everything. I'm used to shooting Monstro with a big crew and an AC with Teradek wireless, light ranger, preston ,etc etc etc. This was an odd job for me but I loved the flexibility of this system and love the minimalist approach. I hate adding stuff to small cameras. I just want 1) Peaking/focus tools on the app 2) A hardware focus wheel that communicates with the wifi protocol to control the EF lens motors. You would have a follow focus with no additional hardware required on the camera, and the ability to monitor on the iPad or phone with focus tools. Low budget, very little gear. Please someone make something like this.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

We could adapt our OptiTron2 with the wireless option to the Komodo as well. We were the first drive by wire follow focus makers for red DSMC back in the day. The current owners could their units adapted as well. We would need minimum of 20 commitments to do that.
Here are links to videos about using the unit with DSMC/DSMC2
https://youtu.be/ECUVDvY8c3Y
https://youtu.be/M656cfx_jww