First Look - Schneider Xenon FF-Prime Lenses

[Ketch Rossi]

Axial Chromatic Aberration and Purple Fringing is there... This is not only do to the fact f the forced choices made but also to the original OLPF of the Dragon, some of this are completely gone in similar scenes with the new OLPF.

The use of a NAKED lens I always strongly discourage for the and more reasons, but some times you have dimly no choice.

Having a proper set of ND's with you, and couple of specific filters will allow for better capture of various situation, even the harshest ones as we encountered in the Alps and in Italy in bight mid day against white buildings, water and clear sky with yet a strong amount of fog.

Overall I remain extremely happy of the Xenon, and they will not be replaced anytime soon, not till I get the Leica Cine Primes or possibly high end Ana's.

The Xenon are simply unbeatable at their price range and well above, mechanically are fantastic, CA is there but so is on any other lens, more in some and less in others.


As Phil said, there are ways to take care of things, and when you can you should, but I don't care about a lens defects when it comes to this little things as much as some do, and trust me, neither do the Billions of viewers in our Planet... Only the very few in us care, and we should not make as much of a big deal about it... I used to do, and that is why my personal set of Master Primes traveled the world with me... Now I have learned of appreciate each lens for what it offers, and chose accordingly... The Xenon for the price are OUTSTANDING... If you want better you must be able to afford glass that is 4 times and above as much... Then problem solved...


But also this shoots are done exactly to see how much the glass can be pushed, and I like what I see... With the next shoots, including the one in LA this month, using the new OLPF on Dragon will give a better idea of how this lenses really perform, as the Purple is mostly do because of the sold OLPF, see the Sunset time-lapse shots...

Either way, I now have a set of ND and Graduate ND filters as well as a Soft Con Filter, the 1/8th Hollywood HD classic Soft to be exact, which I got for some Fashion Film project in the works, so we'll hget to see how the Xenon respond...

Thanks for watching ad for the comments...

 

[Nick Fury]

The first rule about Purple Fringing Club is we don't talk about Purple Fringing Club.

Oh man.

To be much more specific what we are seeing here is a Axial Chromatic Aberration. Pretty much occurring where overexposure and/or extreme contrast variation exists in a scene. Which is why some shots don't exhibit this behavior. It also has a bit to do with how the light is hitting the photo sites on the sensor itself from what I understand which is why higher end glass exhibits this behavior less for the most part. Especially those with aspherical elements and high quality coatings, which is why Zeiss.... Leica.... you know...... But the moolah is more-ah for that.


A few ways to tackle this commonly are:

- Stopping down approximately 2-3 stops. (High end glass often about 1.3 stops)
- Use of a strong UV cut filter.
- Use of a lower power ND filter.
- Use of a low contrast filter.
- Fix it in post (I just had to go there! - though not truly ideal for many situations)


Been utilizing a couple of these methods with Super Speeds. Works for certain uncoated lenses that "go nuts" too.

Hi Phil!

Fabulous! Is there a resource(s), if you are not inclined to elaborate that we could easily access, to delve into the merits and applicability of each technique, that you have listed above?

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Btw, as to elaborate so that people can get a better idea of things...

*Aperture Setting for almost all day shots was T8 with some at T5.6
*No UV Filters was used as we had none available
*Highest Electronic ND setting within the Motion Mount was 4 Stops
*Strongest 4x5.65ND used was .9 from Schneider

We actually did easily removed the purple color fringing and almost all CA in Post but had some serious issues with Dragon files, even with the Red Rocket X, which we unfortunately were not able to take advantage of dpi to our available system on location.

And again, been critically careful about getting the best images is a great thing, just don't get hung on it as I once did, it is so much better to freely go and shoot your imagery...

 

[Phil Holland]

To be honest I noticed the colour cast. As phil said I notice more of a slight colour cast more than anything. Is it something that has got to do with Dragon?

There was potentially a slight cast with the old OLPF and Calibration, though easily fixed in Redcine-X Pro from the start. The new OLPF/Calibration are "dead on" however.

Fabulous! Is there a resource(s), if you are not inclined to elaborate that we could easily access, to delve into the merits and applicability of each technique, that you have listed above?

Nope. Not that I know of. There's a lot of lens related to digital sensor things that aren't really discussed elsewhere in regards to motion work. Though I see still guys talking about this time to time online. In reality there's a lot of variables at play here. One big one is modern sensors and their sensitivity to UV light. This is one of the overall reasons why some DPs really like using LowCons with modern digital cinema cameras.

Here's an example btw of this same effect on the Leica Summilux-C Primes. Visible fringing at T1.4 however two stops close at T2.8 and the purple devil has vanished into nothingness:

This is quite literally the best performance I've ever seen out of cinema primes in regards to fringing. Especially on super speed glass.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Here is some low light tests with the 50mm wide open. The ISO is between 2000-3200. I really like the creamy bokeh and minimal breathing.
https://vimeo.com/91956416
password: xenon

 

[Kirk.Attard]

Nice test Bob - Like the look a lot. And very sharp even wide open. I'm leaning towards them more and more. Have to decide very soon. Thanks for the upload. girl is super sweet btw as well

 

[Bob Gundu]

Nice test Bob - Like the look a lot. And very sharp even wide open. I'm leaning towards them more and more. Have to decide very soon. Thanks for the upload. girl is super sweet btw as well

Thanks! My daughter doesn't shy away from the camera and she surprising knows her way around all my gear.

 

[Mike P.]

I have to admit; I was expecting 'Let it Go'/Frozen, Bob.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I have to admit; I was expecting 'Let it Go'/Frozen, Bob.

aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Just ordered a set. Excited to get my hands on them and i'll report any findings i have.

 

[Roberto Battiston]

And again, been critically careful about getting the best images is a great thing, just don't get hung on it as I once did, it is so much better to freely go and shoot your imagery...

The immanent duality of any creative process: science vs emotions (but also vs concepts/philosophy as a triangle). They must co-exist at the same place-time in a "pleasant" way!. We´ve got the FF for documentary purposes, they aren´t here, but I´ll share tests when they come. Congrats Ketch!, you had a nice day with those Xenon.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

The immanent duality of any creative process: science vs emotions (but also vs concepts/philosophy as a triangle). They must co-exist at the same place-time in a "pleasant" way!. We´ve got the FF for documentary purposes, they aren´t here, but I´ll share tests when they come. Congrats Ketch!, you had a nice day with those Xenon.

Thanks Roberto... And I fully agree with the analogy as well...

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Looking forward to your thoughts Jacob

 

[Dennis Guskov]

The 18mm got a lot of attention because of exactly what it is. 18mm at FF coverage at T2.4, which hasn't really been done before. I think Nikon was the last company to make a FF35 18mm at f/2.8. I was told by the Xenon FF-Prime Product Manager that the engineers were "hell bent" on getting the 18mm done. A 14 or 15mm would have been an easier design in reality. That also might even happen further down the line.

The actual trade offs on the 18mm not being faster more or less come down to elements, optics size, and manufacturing cost. It's important to note all of these Xenons share the same gearing distances, so you don't have to move your follow focus on the rods when you disengage/reengage your gears. They may not have the 95mm thread on the front of the 18mm when all is said and done. Right now it's a manufacturing thread and there is a bit of concern about screw on filters touching the front element. Schneider might make a inexpensive clamp on filter holder for this series in the future, been talking to them about that for a year actually. We'll know more on that very soon.

Not to diminish the importance of achieving 18mm FF @ T2.4, would it not make more sense to go the route of making 20mm and 16mm @ T2.1 instead to keep aperture constant throughout the set? These focal lengths seem to allow for that aperture with FF format. Variable aperture is the big reason for me not to use CP2 and I was hoping Xenons would keep it constant. Would love to see 150mm added to the set, perhaps instead of 135mm even. Your thoughts?

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Not to diminish the importance of achieving 18mm FF @ T2.4, would it not make more sense to go the route of making 20mm and 16mm @ T2.1 instead to keep aperture constant throughout the set? These focal lengths seem to allow for that aperture with FF format. Variable aperture is the big reason for me not to use CP2 and I was hoping Xenons would keep it constant. Would love to see 150mm added to the set, perhaps instead of 135mm even. Your thoughts?

I'm a big fan of fast lenses. There's a saying in old-fashioned ice climbing; you can hold a long axe short, but you can't hold a short axe long.

I really want a lens I can open up to T1.3 if that's the only way to get the shot. Or if I want some funkiness.

If you want perfection at T1.3 across the range, that's easily achieved; go buy or rent MPs or Leicas.

At my budget for a set of primes I personally own, I'm prepared to tolerate funkiness at T1.3 - but give me that extra stop, across the full range, so it's there when I do need it! So long as it cleans up by T2.0 or so for 'normal' work, I'm very comfortable with that trade.

I wish Red could be persuaded to produce successors to the RPPs - Red Pro Superspeeds

Mike

 

[Nick Morrison]

Not to diminish the importance of achieving 18mm FF @ T2.4, would it not make more sense to go the route of making 20mm and 16mm @ T2.1 instead to keep aperture constant throughout the set? These focal lengths seem to allow for that aperture with FF format. Variable aperture is the big reason for me not to use CP2 and I was hoping Xenons would keep it constant. Would love to see 150mm added to the set, perhaps instead of 135mm even. Your thoughts?

No one has ever made a 16mm T2 full frame design, that I know of. There are a few fast 20mm designs, so you are right...would have been interesting to see a 20 T2 in the set...

 

[Phil Holland]

Not to diminish the importance of achieving 18mm FF @ T2.4, would it not make more sense to go the route of making 20mm and 16mm @ T2.1 instead to keep aperture constant throughout the set? These focal lengths seem to allow for that aperture with FF format. Variable aperture is the big reason for me not to use CP2 and I was hoping Xenons would keep it constant. Would love to see 150mm added to the set, perhaps instead of 135mm even. Your thoughts?

I have lots and lots of thoughts and theories regarding lenses. One of the main things that comes into play here is the fact that we are making motion picture lenses here. Traditionally, while they do exist, 18mm and 20mm aren't crazy popular in FF35 still photography. Though I enjoy both and everybody enjoys the Zeiss 21mm.

However, for moving pictures we are very worried about the draw and look of the lens. Traditionally for many DPs an 18mm is "needed". And that was why it was so important for Schneider to achieve this with the 18mm T2.4. Now yes, it's a bit slower. 1/3 of a stop to be precise. I'm also a big advocate of having consistent aperture across the set, but in this particular case and with this series of primes certain concessions need to be made. They honestly could make an 18mm T2.1, but it would be larger and a bit more expensive which goes outside of the market/line of the Xenon FF-Primes. Quality fast and wide glass is just damn expensive to manufacture and generally larger lenses.

20mm for motion picture work is an "odd duck". Nothing wrong with it. But not many are clambering for it. Which is why the new Sony Primes have received some criticism. Same can be said for the 16mm length. I feel that Schneider will release a 14mm Xenon FF-Prime down the line and that is actually an easier lens to make than the 18mm.

Now the odd bit here is using due to barrel distortion and various design variances some lenses see more than or don't see as much than the mathematical specifications. This is one of those things where a bit of feeling and preference comes into play. I've used 50mm primes that are certainly wider or longer than 50mm in terms of what they see. Image Focus Breathing magnifies this concept as well as lenses that breath a good amount really do "play" within a certain range. A controlled lens with minimal breathing provides a consistent feeling and I'm a big fan of that. Other's may not feel as strongly. I do.

Draw also comes into play for the longer lenses or course. 135mm and 150mm are popular motion lengths and that's a tricky battle there. I actually don't see a reason for either not being made. The 135mm is coming. I have recommended a 200mm because I'd love that as well, but who knows.

I wish Red could be persuaded to produce successors to the RPPs - Red Pro Superspeeds

Every day that goes by I think more and more people are missing out on one of the most underrated cinema primes sets out there. The Red Pro Primes really are top notch performers. And they are a steal at T1.8. Freaks me out that people think they are too big and heavy, but that T1.8 is why. And they are shootable and very good wide open.

As for fast full frame Super Speeds. Whelp. Zunow had "the mustard" at one point with their T1.5 Imperial Primes. 25, 35, 50, 85mm. They had other lengths in the set too. However, that set is DOA, erm... actually, dead before arrival as far as I know.

I do think we'll see Sigma ART lenses in cinema housing at some point and that will be one to look out for. Beyond that, the door is open for somebody to steal this market. We'll see the same difficulties on the ultrawides as we've seen here unless they go for the real pricey glass.

No free lunch with lens design.

 

[Mark Andersen]

I wonder if we will ever see a 17 or 18 T 1.4 full frame lens that is sharp wide open where you can shoot a night city scape and none of the lights are blooming or "glowing", it would probably cost a fortune, we have MP and Leica C, but they don't cover my Dragon 6K or Canon EOS. Here's hoping for even smaller photo site sensors in the future and maybe 6-8K in a smaller (like the 5K MX) over all size.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I wonder if we will ever see a 17 or 18 T 1.4 full frame lens that is sharp wide open where you can shoot a night city scape and none of the lights are blooming or "glowing", it would probably cost a fortune, we have MP and Leica C, but they don't cover my Dragon 6K or Canon EOS. Here's hoping for even smaller photo site sensors in the future and maybe 6-8K in a smaller (like the 5K MX) over all size.

Haha. It probably WOULD cost a fortune, and possibly weigh a ton! The faster the wide angle, the smaller the image circle seems to get, so it appears to be a very hard mathematical nut to crack.

 

[Dennis Guskov]

I'm a big fan of fast lenses. There's a saying in old-fashioned ice climbing; you can hold a long axe short, but you can't hold a short axe long.

I really want a lens I can open up to T1.3 if that's the only way to get the shot. Or if I want some funkiness.

If you want perfection at T1.3 across the range, that's easily achieved; go buy or rent MPs or Leicas.

At my budget for a set of primes I personally own, I'm prepared to tolerate funkiness at T1.3 - but give me that extra stop, across the full range, so it's there when I do need it! So long as it cleans up by T2.0 or so for 'normal' work, I'm very comfortable with that trade.

I wish Red could be persuaded to produce successors to the RPPs - Red Pro Superspeeds

Mike

Yes, it would be nice to have that extra stop at my disposal, but at what cost? I was considering Illumina T1.3 lenses, the price is right, but they barely cover MX 5K @ 18mm and 25mm with slight vigneting which means no go for Dragon 6K (and that extra 1K is just like that extra stop nice to have) hence these guys. And having three values at play (aperture, image circle, price) it seems that we can choose only two without the third going bananas - pick either slower lenses for the right price, or coverage for the right price, OR you can have both low T stop and large image circle but you're not gonna like the price Sure I looked at Sony v2 PL lenses as well and those have neither but the right price (at T2 they were made for F5/F55 cameras - according to Sony - which means their image circle is smaller than S35 and would cover MX @ 4K HD but not above). I am not taking into consideration the optical and mechanical performance and build quality, which Xenons obviously have. So weighing everything in Xenons do seem very good of a choice even with the 18mm standing out

UltraPrimes have 16 and 20mm and DPs got them accepted and are used to it - in fact they demand them. They might not cover full frame but they are not too far off