First Look - Schneider Xenon FF-Prime Lenses

[Ketch Rossi]

Great test and post Phil, as always your nicely put wording of your knowledge base with your tests as in here demands respect and a sincere Thanks you, for taking the time yet again to do this for the community!!

Some people still have no idea of an incredible deal the Schneider Xenon really are, at their price pint with their quality built and particular qualities, I think that the CA, which while present sam e as some Fringing as result, can be well controlled, as it is not an extreme, unless placed under extreme conditions of shooting and not properly operated, under which conditions any and almost all lenses but he absolute top dogs Master Primes, Summilux Cine primes and Fujinon's Premier Zooms, would also show such harsh rendering of artifacts.

There is not only to take in consideration the lens and the camera used, but the filtering and stop as well as all settings under which a lens is used in order to properly and adequately judge a lens performance vs an other, and ultimately make a final and fair review about it's quality and defects.


Of course there is also to always consider that QC can also be responsible for some of the cases shown in this thread by fellow RU's, for which case I strongly advise to contact their respective sale rep and return/exchange those lenses of they do indeed result to be a case of poor QC form Schneider.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I have been closely watching the development of these lenses, and peoples tests of them. It is interesting to read the variety of opinions.

To be honest, I am now swaying a little to getting rehoused Sigma Art lenses by GL optics. The sigma lenses nearly match the Otus (operative word, nearly). And they are 1.4. Minimal choma. Sharp from wide open.

My 2 cents

 

[Owen Rennie]

So tell me if I'm correct here as I'm viewing on iPhone but it appears the CP2s and the Xenons show worse signs of CA than the Canon and the Ultra primes which of course show the least ?

 

[Anton Shavlik]

The purple fringing is noticeable but the Xenons also have green fringing depending on if the high contrast area is in front of / behind the plane of focus which is harder to spot but it actually shows up in equal amount. If you look at Phil's examples its rather hard to discern the green edges but the second image, a wire mesh similar to on a microphone, I think you will notice a lot more green than the other lenses and that's exactly because the focus is slightly off while the other 3 images are spot on. Of course the other lenses exhibit this quality too, in the same amount they exhibit the purple fringing, that's physics for you.

 

[Andrew David Watson]

Phil, thank you so much for this test. Its exactly what I've been looking for, but I haven't had the means to do so myself.

Owen, I would agree with your summary, but of course the Canon is stopped down to T2.1, so it makes sense there would be less CA. However, I feel like the levels of CA are pretty similar between the Canon, Zeiss and Xenons (Matthew Duclus was pretty spot on with that statement). I'm actually surprised at the CA in the Canon glass given they are stopped down.

Thanks Phil, super helpful.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I shoot a lot with these lenses and they have so much going for them. I actually sold my Leica R set because I found myself using these way more. Yes the Leica's had less CA but that was also because of the dated coatings. For some corporate work, I needed lenses which had a clean contrast look. The Red Primes actually fit the bill nicely, but I hated lugging those around. Xenons are a great size and weight. The mechanics are smooth, and the bokeh is creamy. When I want my old Leica look again, I slap on a slight diffusion filter, like the awesome Tiffen Satins. Here's something I just shot using the Xenon 50mm, at 2.1, with Tiffen Satin 1.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, thank you so much for this test. Its exactly what I've been looking for, but I haven't had the means to do so myself.

Owen, I would agree with your summary, but of course the Canon is stopped down to T2.1, so it makes sense there would be less CA. However, I feel like the levels of CA are pretty similar between the Canon, Zeiss and Xenons (Matthew Duclus was pretty spot on with that statement). I'm actually surprised at the CA in the Canon glass given they are stopped down.

Thanks Phil, super helpful.

Yep. That's spot on. More or less what I'm showing here is their performance is in line with lenses within the same general price range. Everybody has their opinions and can purchase whatever glass they want, but what I was seeing posted was a lot of extremely high contrast ratio/wide open to T4 shots that people were being fairly critical of. That's stressing the less and these aren't exactly in the same class as say the Leica Summilux-Cs, which don't look like this in this situation. I end up using a lot of lenses and for me it's a lot more about the "total package" sometimes and that's where value, build quality, mechanics, image character, etc.... comes into play. For instance, I loathe the smaller rotation and scales on the aperture ring on the CN-Es. The CP.2s and Xenon FF-Primes don't exhibit that. That may seem like a small thing, but it's important for practical shooting scenarios.

Bob's image above shows the nice and pillow-ish out of focus image, the Xenons have a very nice focus pull and draw which is nice.

There's a lot of choices around this price point and all are giving fairly good value for what the lenses are.

 

[Rome Will]

Bob that's a nice shot...I might need to look at that filter.

Thanks Phil. I remember calling Mathew and asking him about the CA when these reports first surfaced...I was worried I was throwing my money away vs. just picking up a set of CP.2's- the "super speed" version which were 1.5's in 35, 50, and 75...basically the same three lenses I was getting with the Schneiders. But he calmed me down and said the same thing you confirmed with the pics... At the end of the day, I'm happy I made the purchase. Still need the 25mm though!

 

[Matthew Duclos]

This was a fun little test that I've been meaning to facilitate for a while now. This is exactly what I was saying in my previous post about a baseline comparison. The degree to which a a lens' performance is measured is meaningless without a starting point or comparison. I'm not in the habit of bashing lenses, but I can confidently say that you would all be amazed at how poorly some other more respected lenses would perform when put in the same unrealistic shooting conditions I've seen some of these Xenons stress tested in. There are half a dozen sets of lenses that I could recommend as alternatives that have their pros and cons, all the same...

TO SUM IT ALL UP:
Yes. The Xenon's exhibit axial, chromatic, and spherical aberrations - So does just about every lens out there (to a degree) unless you're looking at a set that runs $100,000+
The Xenons are and continue to be an excellent value for the money. Their mechanical design, size, and weight are excellent. The 35mm Full Frame image circle and interchangeable mount are icing on the cake.

Thanks, Phil, for doing the leg work here and rolling in with your Dragon. Once again, anyone interested in testing out lenses: http://duclos.tv/demo

 

[Samir Patel]

I actually sold my Leica R set because I found myself using these way more.

Sold your Leica R set... What???? That's a great image by the way.

 

[Rome Will]

Quick question...

I know it was mentioned earlier about the breathing, but I'm wondering if anyone has some real world test to show it (I still haven't put these puppies to work for real yet...sad, I know). CA, I'm cool with- I understand that virtually all lenses are going to have some CA, and this price point and given the stress tests, it's understood...but breathing could be a differentiating factor. I haven't seen much breathing from the times I've pulled these out, but then again I haven't really looked/compared them to others in the same class. Given the pedigree that these were built off of, the Cine-Xenars, I'm wondering if when compared to the still rehoused glass out there, these "shine"...thx!

 

[Anton Shavlik]

I can chime in on some of this stuff since it seems a lot of people are still on the fence about these lenses.

I don't have a test but the breathing is a lot less than I've seen on Zeiss CP2s or Canon cine lenses, it's still there if you look for it but very minimal. As people have said I've also noticed some very slight halation with these lenses. They are also decently sharp even wide open and match very well, and their flares have a vintage look that I like a lot more than I was getting from my Zeiss ZE lenses. Their bokeh is very creamy and even. Operation of the focus or aperture ring is very very smooth with some fluid feeling resistance, great with a follow focus but a little too much for operating with hands in my opinion. The front element floats freely inside the lens as you focus, well behind the 95mm filter thread but still a little exposed. I had my 75mm experience a small impact that shook the front element out of alignment, and Schneider covered the repair. I had one lens that didn't color match so well and Schneider covered the inspection for that as well, though I haven't heard from them yet what they will do about it. Obviously, I just posted my thoughts about the CA.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

This was a fun little test that I've been meaning to facilitate for a while now. This is exactly what I was saying in my previous post about a baseline comparison. The degree to which a a lens' performance is measured is meaningless without a starting point or comparison. I'm not in the habit of bashing lenses, but I can confidently say that you would all be amazed at how poorly some other more respected lenses would perform when put in the same unrealistic shooting conditions I've seen some of these Xenons stress tested in. There are half a dozen sets of lenses that I could recommend as alternatives that have their pros and cons, all the same...

TO SUM IT ALL UP:
Yes. The Xenon's exhibit axial, chromatic, and spherical aberrations - So does just about every lens out there (to a degree) unless you're looking at a set that runs $100,000+
The Xenons are and continue to be an excellent value for the money. Their mechanical design, size, and weight are excellent. The 35mm Full Frame image circle and interchangeable mount are icing on the cake.

Thanks, Phil, for doing the leg work here and rolling in with your Dragon. Once again, anyone interested in testing out lenses: http://duclos.tv/demo

Very well said Matt!!

Fact is that unfortunately there is always a end user of a given product that expects the impossible when already getting an impossible deal from a given product, such is the case here with the excellent Schneider Xenon lenses.

This have performed greatly in over 20 shows since we first got 3 sets of them, and yes, one lens was returned and exchanged immediately by the manufacturer at no cost, fast service and no BS about it, this lens did indeed exhibited a bit more artifacts then I retained acceptable and that too was looked at and fixed and returned to match all other lenses in the set.

In this 3 sets, 2 of them were amongst the very first sets delivered by Schneider.

The third set came in 3 months later and we encountered consistency of quality across all 3 sets, with only change of the boxes in which they were shipped been now production boxes with foam cut inserts to protect the lenses,s instead of white big boxes.

Overall, the Xenon's are truly great lenses and again, one must always calculate the price vs qualities and how they perform, look at the build quality, the T* Stop, performance WO till Closed down, Flair, Bokeh, Breathing, Chromatic aberration, Axial and spherical as well, remembering that they are FF, and that the focus and iris mechanism are incredibly smooth, and that they are nicely color matched across the set, and that while the Green cast is there in extreme situation, so is on even Ultra Primes costing triple that of the Xenon's.

Having said the above, before some one starts screaming at me because I'll be putting a sets up for sale... I want to say that the only reason we are selling is because our next projects till NAB hare now moving almost entirely to ZOOMS.


PS: Matt I might be hitting you up for a nice compact zoom to use on the Ronin of high quality to come as close as possible to cut in with the Fujinon's Premier series.

 

[Andrew David Watson]

Ketch, selling a set? PM the details!

 

[Rome Will]

Very well said Matt!!

Fact is that unfortunately there is always a end user of a given product that expects the impossible when already getting an impossible deal from a given product, such is the case here with the excellent Schneider Xenon lenses.

This have performed greatly in over 20 shows since we first got 3 sets of them, and yes, one lens was returned and exchanged immediately by the manufacturer at no cost, fast service and no BS about it, this lens did indeed exhibited a bit more artifacts then I retained acceptable and that too was looked at and fixed and returned to match all other lenses in the set.

In this 3 sets, 2 of them were amongst the very first sets delivered by Schneider.

The third set came in 3 months later and we encountered consistency of quality across all 3 sets, with only change of the boxes in which they were shipped been now production boxes with foam cut inserts to protect the lenses,s instead of white big boxes.

Overall, the Xenon's are truly great lenses and again, one must always calculate the price vs qualities and how they perform, look at the build quality, the T* Stop, performance WO till Closed down, Flair, Bokeh, Breathing, Chromatic aberration, Axial and spherical as well, remembering that they are FF, and that the focus and iris mechanism are incredibly smooth, and that they are nicely color matched across the set, and that while the Green cast is there in extreme situation, so is on even Ultra Primes costing triple that of the Xenon's.

Having said the above, before some one starts screaming at me because I'll be putting a sets up for sale... I want to say that the only reason we are selling is because our next projects till NAB hare now moving almost entirely to ZOOMS.


PS: Matt I might be hitting you up for a nice compact zoom to use on the Ronin of high quality to come as close as possible to cut in with the Fujinon's Premier series.

Ketch,

Let me know what you find out for the quality zoom + ronin. I've been looking, and the only one I found was the rehoused GL Optics zoom, which was actually a nice fit the Xenons from what I've heard, since it was a 18-35mm 1.8 zoom...

 

[Rome Will]

I can chime in on some of this stuff since it seems a lot of people are still on the fence about these lenses.

I don't have a test but the breathing is a lot less than I've seen on Zeiss CP2s or Canon cine lenses, it's still there if you look for it but very minimal. As people have said I've also noticed some very slight halation with these lenses. They are also decently sharp even wide open and match very well, and their flares have a vintage look that I like a lot more than I was getting from my Zeiss ZE lenses. Their bokeh is very creamy and even. Operation of the focus or aperture ring is very very smooth with some fluid feeling resistance, great with a follow focus but a little too much for operating with hands in my opinion. The front element floats freely inside the lens as you focus, well behind the 95mm filter thread but still a little exposed. I had my 75mm experience a small impact that shook the front element out of alignment, and Schneider covered the repair. I had one lens that didn't color match so well and Schneider covered the inspection for that as well, though I haven't heard from them yet what they will do about it. Obviously, I just posted my thoughts about the CA.

Anton,

Got you. Yeah, that's what I thought...couldn't remember. I understand why some people were a little upset with the CA issues, but the breathing vs. other lenses, to me, would be a more important counterargument...

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Ketch, selling a set? PM the details!

Yes Andrew,

As specified I will be selling a full Set, 25, 35, 50, 75 & 100 of the Xenon's, simply because after we reviewed the schedule for my end of 2014 and first half of 2015 we'll be using Zooms, form long to mid range, and a compact one for the Ronin, this is do because of specific needs presented by the challenges forthcoming in what I have set out to do for my next Self Produced projects, were using Primes would increase greatly chances to damage both the lenses and bring dust, water and snow inside the Motion Mount, which I absolutely need to avoid, and since we had already dropped a Lens and a 9" Red Touch Monitor during a camera set up that went very wrong in flight do to a bust of wind that forced the Heli downwards and side ways...

Learned again an other valuable lesson form it, were in this next shoots we'll be sure that before been stripped outside the chopper all gear will be already fixed on the camera while IT will be fixed on both myself and the Heli its elf via Double Monky Straps...

Any way, this and other shooting needs like the inability to Dolly in and or move while on most locations will force us the use of Zooms, so I see no point to let multiple sets of Xenon Primes seat at home unused for over 6 months.

Ketch,

Let me know what you find out for the quality zoom + ronin. I've been looking, and the only one I found was the rehoused GL Optics zoom, which was actually a nice fit the Xenons from what I've heard, since it was a 18-35mm 1.8 zoom...

I actually will be also looking at the 18-35 form GL, but this zoom to be used exclusively on the Ronin, is not to match the Xenon, since we'll not be using them in this projects, but needs to come as close as possible to the Fujinon's "Premier" series of Zoom 4k+ Cine lenses, so it won't be an easy task, but I am not looking to match in qualities but in color so that we don't have to deal with separate color match in post specifically for all shots with the Ronin...

I know I'll miss using the Xenon's as they are great lenses.

 

[Hal Long]

Ketch, I have the xenons and the GL 18-35. They cut together very well. I've used the xenons and the GL with cabrios as well many times and have had no issues. Not the premiers but hopefully that's a bit of an indication for you.

Best,

H

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Loook,
Schneider is no longer Company they once were.

All cheaper Cine lenses are not perfect, but with Schneider name we sort of expect something special.
It took them THREE Generations to make Xenons outstanding lenses. Xenars are nicely built for that $$,but optically they are no Otus.
As was said before, bad CA can be fixed in post and partially avoided while shooting.

It will remind to be seen if Xenars are better then Leica R, Sigma Art rehouse..... Or Nikon G Rehouse by TLC.
I am 100% sure are not in league of Otus.
Otus next 2 years will be Poor Man's Masterprimes.

So, will they be a special lenses to have next 2 years? Will people be raving about Xenons as they are about Contax ,Leica, Otus....?

 

[Phil Holland]

Loook,
Schneider is no longer Company they once were.

All cheaper Cine lenses are not perfect, but with Schneider name we sort of expect something special.
It took them THREE Generations to make Xenons outstanding lenses. Xenars are nicely built for that $$,but optically they are no Otus.
As was said before, bad CA can be fixed in post and partially avoided while shooting.

It will remind to be seen if Xenars are better then Leica R, Sigma Art rehouse..... Or Nikon G Rehouse by TLC.
I am 100% sure are not in league of Otus.
Otus next 2 years will be Poor Man's Masterprimes.

So, will they be a special lenses to have next 2 years? Will people be raving about Xenons as they are about Contax ,Leica, Otus....?

To me the Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs are special lenses. So much so I purchased a set. More for their quality and unique properties that separate them from other glass in comparable ranges.

Lenses tend to "not go bad". People are happily shooting with things like Canon K35s, Kowas, and Zeiss Super and Standard Speeds. There's obobvious format considerations, but beyond that and maybe technical resolving capability people tend to select lenses bases on image character and value.

The Otus line will one day be in a cinema style housing, but don't expect them in the same price range as CP.2s, CN-Es, and XFFs. All of those particular sets represent a very good value to performance ratio in my mind and that's what's actually going on in this particular price range.

There are more lenses coming however and at various price points.