First Look: Interchangeable OLPF on Dragon

[Antony Newman]

Phil,

+) Not sure if this has already been tested / reported - but could you include testing the low light filter with the motion mount.
Are the Orbs or 'diffraction like' circles reduced?

+) Also - do you know what the f-stop loss of the LowLight OLPF is compared to no OLPF is? Just curious what the IR & Antialiasing losses approximate to.

Random Thoughts

If the LowLight OLPF hits issues with blown out highlights, maybe an interesting OLPF recipe could be:
- Anti Alias
- No IR (to be done by MotionMount / might also fix the Orbs)
- Low con (to push the point the highlights cause difraction-like pattern a couple of stops higher)

Now the MotionMount would not not need to go up to such high strengths (because of the low con).
- So its own light stop impact could be reduced - say by half a stop? (let's call this the MM2)
- Thinner MM might allow it to work at higher frame rates (just a guess)

And the combination of both of the above could end up with the MM2 + LowConOptiClearNoIR OLPF having better light sensitivity (and higher SignalToNoise) than the current SkinTone Dragon (without MM), the ability to map a greater DR out Dragon sensor (because a couple more strops of Blown out Reds would still track).

AJ

 

[Dave Blackham]

Will there be an opportunity for third party OLPF filters ? Clearly there is a need for a LUT or preset for any given OLPF ?

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

+) Not sure if this has already been tested / reported - but could you include testing the low light filter with the motion mount.
Are the Orbs or 'diffraction like' circles reduced?

+) Also - do you know what the f-stop loss of the LowLight OLPF is compared to no OLPF is? Just curious what the IR & Antialiasing losses approximate to.

Random Thoughts

If the LowLight OLPF hits issues with blown out highlights, maybe an interesting OLPF recipe could be:
- Anti Alias
- No IR (to be done by MotionMount / might also fix the Orbs)
- Low con (to push the point the highlights cause difraction-like pattern a couple of stops higher)

Now the MotionMount would not not need to go up to such high strengths (because of the low con).
- So its own light stop impact could be reduced - say by half a stop? (let's call this the MM2)
- Thinner MM might allow it to work at higher frame rates (just a guess)

And the combination of both of the above could end up with the MM2 + LowConOptiClearNoIR OLPF having better light sensitivity (and higher SignalToNoise) than the current SkinTone Dragon (without MM), the ability to map a greater DR out Dragon sensor (because a couple more strops of Blown out Reds would still track).

AJ

Yep. I'll take a look. Some of my first Dragon footage was Motion Mount and the Low Light Optimized OLPF (back then just called the V1) and I believe it did make an impact on clearing up a few things. I'll do a more thorough test this time around, but this was from that combo:



Any OLPF that has any sort of coating/layers will chew up a bit of light away from the sensor. That's the whole game. Until I have an optical clear and the accompanying OLPF profile it will be hard to tell. So we'll know more on that front soon.

The Low Light Optimized OLPF isn't really blowing out highlights in a negative way, it's still superior performance to Mysterium-X. It's just a different calibration and roll-off compared to the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF which really holds it nicely.

I do think a special Motion Mount OLPF could be something interesting, but we'll have to wait and see. Don't know exactly about "always" having the Low Con on as an overall solution here. The Motion Mount's frame rate restrictions have more to due with sensor readout and how the tech works rather than "thickness". So that's not really a factor.

Red's clearly experimenting with new OLPF designs, so we'll have to see what they develop.

I think the next few out of the gate should be the Dragon Standard, Underwater, and IR. The Clear is fairly trivial to create so I imagine that's coming, but it's certainly a specialty item in my book

 

[Phil Holland]

Will there be an opportunity for third party OLPF filters ? Clearly there is a need for a LUT or preset for any given OLPF ?

The OLPF Profiles you can select from the menu will apply a specific calibration optimized for each OLPF. In terms of mixing and matching between the Low Light Optimized and Skin Tone - Highlight OLPFs you can use the same LUTs that have been using in post on both of them. There are slight variations between the two, but they are slight.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Another possibility I can see is a Motion Mount Optimized OLPF that would basically be more or less an Optical Clear with a special arrangment of birefringent plates that essentially makes the camera more sensitive to light and the IR is blocked by the Motion Mount itself.

BRILLIANT ! ! !

 

[Mark Pugh]

Phil, care trying a motion mount test with no OLPF? Yes, I know it won't focus far.

 

[AndreasOberg]

Thanks for the update Phil. Very interesting!
/Andreas

 

[Martin Stevens]

Great thread Phil. You are so tireless it amazes me.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I do think a special Motion Mount OLPF could be something interesting, but we'll have to wait and see. Don't know exactly about "always" having the Low Con on as an overall solution here. The Motion Mount's frame rate restrictions have more to due with sensor readout and how the tech works rather than "thickness".

Phil do you mean an entirely new Motion Mount? I have two of them at $3,900 each and would much rather pay for a mod if one was available. Any insight?

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

The OLPF Profiles you can select from the menu will apply a specific calibration optimized for each OLPF. In terms of mixing and matching between the Low Light Optimized and Skin Tone - Highlight OLPFs you can use the same LUTs that have been using in post on both of them. There are slight variations between the two, but they are slight.

What happens if you accidentally select the wrong profile in camera? Will you be able to change ir later in REDCine? Or is ir something that has to be turned on in camera?

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

What happens if you accidentally select the wrong profile in camera? Will you be able to change ir later in REDCine? Or is ir something that has to be turned on in camera?

I was wondering if you can achieve some funky things by selecting a different setting from within the camera. Obviously it's optimized for each, but this is something I wondered about from the firmware update posting this feature in camera.

 

[Elsie N]

Thanks Phil !
Also interrested on any info you might get on the DIY install OLPF kit vs sending the camera to RED for the upgrade...

Mikael, I think I saw a RED video on how to install the kit yourself, but don't have a link. Maybe someone from RED can post one.

 

[Phil Holland]

Great thread Phil. You are so tireless it amazes me.

I spend a lot of time making images Like all of my time.

Phil do you mean an entirely new Motion Mount? I have two of them at $3,900 each and would much rather pay for a mod if one was available. Any insight?

Nope. I mean I think there's room for a custom OLPF optimized for the Motion Mount that would provide less light loss compared to the STH OLPF and maybe even the LLO OLPF. It would essentially be an Optical Clear with a special birefringent arrangement with maybe some AR in there and that's about it. The Motion Mount itself cuts IR fairly effectively.

Phil, care trying a motion mount test with no OLPF? Yes, I know it won't focus far.

I could, but the problem is there's not suitable calibration profile to "tune" the camera for this, so it's not going to net exactly what everybody wants to see. Once Red releases an Optical Clear OLPF it would be worth trying out, but at the moment that doesn't exist yet.

What happens if you accidentally select the wrong profile in camera? Will you be able to change ir later in REDCine? Or is ir something that has to be turned on in camera?

Jarred mentioned that Redcine-X Pro was going to get an update to select OLPFs for just this reason. I imagine this will be coming soon, though I can see reasons why it would be tricky to implement.

I was wondering if you can achieve some funky things by selecting a different setting from within the camera. Obviously it's optimized for each, but this is something I wondered about from the firmware update posting this feature in camera.

Yes. Visually there is a difference in color and tonal range when you have the wrong OLPF profile loaded up. I wouldn't recommend shooting with the wrong profile and expecting good results really. The color and tonal qualities across the board won't provide you an image you'd like.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Another possibility I can see is a Motion Mount Optimized OLPF that would basically be more or less an Optical Clear with a special arrangment of birefringent plates that essentially makes the camera more sensitive to light and the IR is blocked by the Motion Mount itself.

This option would be very intersting to explore since on occasion, using the Motion Mount in very low light (with strobes for instance) absorbs a lot of stop and may result in underexposure for those shots... A more sensitive Motion Mount OLPF would help negate some of those factors...

 

[Paul Ellington]

Thanks Phil.

 

[Mark Toia]

's been a while since I've shot on the Low Light Optimized OLPF, but just in the short time I've had it in my hands again I can see this making some of the lower light shooters out there happy.

I think I'll have a one of each for each camera.
I could be stuck doing night shoots for a month, then in the middle of a white desert the next month....

I've been shooting both Sensors quite a bit the last few months. I haven't really noticed the 1.3 stop deficiency, but I have seen the noise when and if I under expose.
I tend to shoot differently per OLPF.
On the V2, I just stay at 250 IS0 and favor the right of the histogram almost making the traffic lights go off. Resulting in the cleanest images.
In saying that, I was cornered with the incorrect lens with dying light and was forced to 2000 ISO. But I still made sure my histogram was hard right. Still ended up with great results.

The V1 Sensor I can be a little less aggressive with the histogram, but the images are not as rich as the V2.

My out take on this is, If the V1 didn't have those RED orbs you see when shooting bright pings of light. I'd be more than happy to stay with the V1. Even though the V2 is superior.

 

[Mark Toia]

This option would be very intersting to explore since on occasion, using the Motion Mount in very low light (with strobes for instance) absorbs a lot of stop and may result in underexposure for those shots... A more sensitive Motion Mount OLPF would help negate some of those factors...

I shoot wide open alot, Sadly the Motion mount doesn't like me dicking around anything under f2. Which annoys the shit out of me because I really would love to use it all the time. For obvious reasons.
Hey Chris, Nice job on the Britney Video, Watched that again a couple of nights back. well done.

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

Yep. I'll take a look. Some of my first Dragon footage was Motion Mount and the Low Light Optimized OLPF (back then just called the V1) and I believe it did make an impact on clearing up a few things. I'll do a more thorough test this time around, but this was from that combo:



Any OLPF that has any sort of coating/layers will chew up a bit of light away from the sensor. That's the whole game. Until I have an optical clear and the accompanying OLPF profile it will be hard to tell. So we'll know more on that front soon.

The Low Light Optimized OLPF isn't really blowing out highlights in a negative way, it's still superior performance to Mysterium-X. It's just a different calibration and roll-off compared to the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF which really holds it nicely.

I do think a special Motion Mount OLPF could be something interesting, but we'll have to wait and see. Don't know exactly about "always" having the Low Con on as an overall solution here. The Motion Mount's frame rate restrictions have more to due with sensor readout and how the tech works rather than "thickness". So that's not really a factor.

Red's clearly experimenting with new OLPF designs, so we'll have to see what they develop.

I think the next few out of the gate should be the Dragon Standard, Underwater, and IR. The Clear is fairly trivial to create so I imagine that's coming, but it's certainly a specialty item in my book

When I see the images you shot with the Low Light Optimized OLPF, I almost can not believe there is room for improvement... Isn't the highlight rollout and color as good as it gets on this images?

 

[Raphael Varandas]

Great as always Phil. Thanks for this.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

Cool write up, that said I think a lot of us would still love to have an official procedure for swapping from RED (when it's ready) along with associated costs just in case the sensor does need to be cleaned from exposing to the elements. That way we can at least have a ballpark price to tell potential renters why they are or are NOT allowed to change it in the field (because they're stupid and will try this at the beach or some ungodly location).