Feel robbed

[Vance Colvig]

Just think of all the insurance money you will save on your Epic now that they are worth less. ; )

 

[Mitch Gross]

Ok,

Look at it this way. An epic that's 2 months old. Approx 40k with basics.

Yea everything loses value, but an artificial devaluation of the value of a product by manufacturer puts that middle owner in a very tough spot. Because his camera is not only worth less than new at 40k, but its worth less than new @ 19k. So a barely used 34k body can only sell used for about 15k. That's the problem. For people looking at the equity of equipment as a value asset to make other moves in business, get the shit end of the stick.

For example, lets say in 6 months I wanted to sell my epic package for 30k and put it toward a set of ultra primes..... Well that's gone. Not because the market dictated but because of artificial factors.

This isn't a car. This is tool for many people to make a living. Though I guess to make an omelette some eggs have to get broken.

Bad math. Equipment, meaning a tool with which to perform business - devalues over time. How does it devalue? YOU determine that rate, using your depreciation write-off on your taxes. So if you say five years and you use the thing for five years then you have fully written the thing off and you are out nothing. Instead you have written off the full purchase price as a simple cost of doing business.

If you buy gear as a leveraging move towards selling it again and hop-scotching your way upmarket, then I would say that you are gambling. You just lost the bet.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Just think of all the insurance money you will save on your Epic now that they are worth less. ; )

HOW true....you just reminded me that i have to go to my schedule of equipment and change the replacement costs of those from $38k to 19k....Not that it's a huge savings, but based on how many one might have in inventory....well, it adds up a bit and drops our premiums...I'm doing that now.

There's one of the best things said on this thread....instead of all the barking that leads to same old replies....

 

[Mitch Gross]

Just think of all the insurance money you will save on your Epic now that they are worth less. ; )

My new favorite post in this thread. Martin, I nominate this for the REDuser quote list.

 

[Timur Civan]

I'm not talking 5 years Mitch. This is how I worked up to an epic. F3 to scarlet, scarlet to epic. Working my way up with clients and better paying jobs, but knowing I had a certain cash value tied up in my gear that I could free up for equipment updates. Granted I'm at the top of the heap gear wise for my purposes IMO , but I had that safety net in place to help me get there.

Ultimately shit happens, but for some I'm sure it threw a wrench in the works.

That said. My insurance costs will likely go down.... 15,000 less to insure.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Hey Jeff,

I want to prove your theory wrong. Let Jim Jannard give me the first two Dragon sensor EPICs manufactured (and all the cool accessoriest first) and i'll document how it has affected my business growth. I have no talent whatsoever and this theory will be based on the fact that owning the equipment first... when it's most valuable and in demand is what's most important.

To have a few variables... don't let Ketch Rossi for example get the Dragon sensor and we'll see who gets the most work and makes the most money. Let the study have a one year duration. What do you guys say?

If your business model is based on opportunistic gambles by having a window of exclusivity with a hunk of equipment, then I will say that you are chasing rainbows and destined to fail. RED is a company here to make money. They wish to make products and sell them, as many as possible. That's a forward thinking business plan. Yours is the definition of a short-lived get rich quick scheme. Such ventures always collapse, almost by design. It is not a smart way to enter into business, at least if you want to stay in the business. And if you don't want to give yourself stress-induced ulcers.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

If you buy gear as a leveraging move towards selling it again and hop-scotching your way upmarket, then I would say that you are gambling. You just lost the bet.

Well, to be fair it was a calculated bet. A calculation considered when making that initial investment in RED to begin with. A calculation based on the proven observation that RED has ALWAYS taken care of its customers with the various stages and what have you. That was a belief that's been shaken now.

I cancelled my SCARLET order that was ready to ship to place an order for an EPIC instead after arranging a low interest loan on my credit card. Not all of us are loaded. And then, this group, and ONLY this middle group (stage 4 to be precise) got the short end of the stick here.

Not a complaint, but hate it when people pussyfoot around this fact by talking intangibles. Let's face it. We got the short end of the stick. We'll deal. Had I known better (and I do now), I'd never have cancelled my SCARLET order to trade up to an EPIC.

Will I still pay off my loan? Yes. Will I still survive? You betcha. Will I still use my EPIC to make shorts and then a feature? happening NOW!

All that doesn't change what happened here. And no amount of sugar coating is gonna hide it from me. I am too smart for that, y'all.

p.s. yeah, gonna call my insurance company to let them know. will knock off a WHOLE hundred dollars off my eight hundred dollar policy, am sure. whoop-dee-doo. ON second thought, I'll let it slide and not call them. Best to avoid their sniggers when I tell them what happened here.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I'm not talking 5 years Mitch. This is how I worked up to an epic. F3 to scarlet, scarlet to epic. Working my way up with clients and better paying jobs, but knowing I had a certain cash value tied up in my gear that I could free up for equipment updates. Granted I'm at the top of the heap gear wise for my purposes IMO , but I had that safety net in place to help me get there.

Ultimately shit happens, but for some I'm sure it threw a wrench in the works.

That said. My insurance costs will likely go down.... 15,000 less to insure.

As I said, you were gambling. Worked well for a time but eventually it will catch you one way or another.

An investment banker described the collapse of the quickie-market computerized trading system in just this way. Companies sprang up that used computers to make trades in nanoseconds to pull quick profits floating the value between who was selling and who was buying. But then another company would come up with faster computers and a better algorithm. In the frenzy these companies began feeding off one another and it all became a game of squeezing pennies. But the real gamble was that the guy you hired to write the code didn't miss a loophole or accidentally transpose a couple of digits, because the only way to really test it was to run it live and if your program wasn't right then the other sharks would eat you alive. Companies with hundreds of millions in equity would suddenly be worthless.

So ask yourself: If you were asked to place a bet, and 99% of the time the supermodel would jump your bones and screw your brains out, but 1% of the time swhe'd whip out a chainsaw and slice off your manhood, would you take that bet? If it worked out the first time, how many times do you try it again? Because eventually she will be pulling out the Black & Decker.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Everyone should stop and realize something. In a few years time the EPIC will be a doorstop. So will the Sony F55, the Phantom Flex and anything else that's out there now. I know RED says "Obsolescence Obsolete" but that really means there is a trade-in/trade-up program to keep you moving forward.

I remember when Paramount closed its camera department and sold off all the old Mitchell cameras to Visual Products. It wasn't that long ago. By building replacement parts in their own machine shop they were able to keep those beasts running for 60+ years shooting sitcoms. Then came the F900 and those days were done. And they are never coming back.

RED is free todo what it wants to stay competitive or otherwise feels is proper business practice. You have to take care of yourself. Don't buy gear unless you know you can generate the work to pay it off. If it drops in value then it might take you a little longer, but you still know you can pay it off. If you don't know that you can do it with reasonable certainty, then don't buy the gear. That simple.

Mitch,

I'd like to like take exception on two points. 1st, the Epic will not be doorstop in five years. The ORIGINAL Red One is not a doorstop. It's an incredibly powerful and very useful camera even today. You mention the F900; well those are *still* being used. The F35 is hardly a doorstop, as it too makes amazing images.

Second, I think ownership makes sense, even if you can't use the camera to pay for itself. That's b/c these cameras are so complicated that just having one and learning how to use it and post it almost requires ownership for inexperienced operators and one man bands.

The smartest Red adopters were the early adopters, IMHO. They each put down a grand. And those who stayed with the company through the growing pains and triumphs are well ahead of the curve in terms of digital cinema in general and of course Red specifically.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

So ask yourself: If you were asked to place a bet, and 99% of the time the supermodel would jump your bones and screw your brains out, but 1% of the time swhe'd whip out a chainsaw and slice off your manhood, would you take that bet? If it worked out the first time, how many times do you try it again? Because eventually she will be pulling out the Black & Decker.

SO...

RED = a supermodel with a chainsaw ready to slice off your manhood?

Yikes.

 

[Phil Holland]

So ask yourself: If you were asked to place a bet, and 99% of the time the supermodel would jump your bones and screw your brains out, but 1% of the time swhe'd whip out a chainsaw and slice off your manhood, would you take that bet? If it worked out the first time, how many times do you try it again? Because eventually she will be pulling out the Black & Decker.

Mitch has apparently been following my dating life extremely closely.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

There's one of the best things said on this thread....instead of all the barking that leads to same old replies....

What same replies? I've not seen a single poster acknowledge that its the Stage 4 buyers (among the first in the general population to spend on an EPIC) that got the short end of the stick, FINANCIALLY speaking.

Once that's acknowledged clearly, then you may use words like "barking"... btw, that's a bit rude, but am sure you already knew that.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch,

I'd like to like take exception on two points. 1st, the Epic will not be doorstop in five years. The ORIGINAL Red One is not a doorstop. It's an incredibly powerful and very useful camera even today. You mention the F900; well those are *still* being used. The F35 is hardly a doorstop, as it too makes amazing images.

Seond, I think ownership makes sense, even if you can't use the camera to pay for itself. That's b/c these cameras are so complicated that just having one and learning how to use it and post it almost requires ownership for inexperienced operators.

The smartest Red adopters were the early adopters, IMHO. They each put down a grand. And those who stayed with the company through the growing pains and triumphs are well ahead of the curve in terms of digital cinema in general and of course Red specifically.

Perhaps you missed my point, but I generally agree. Note that I said "a few years" not "five years." And I guess doorstop is a relative term -- those cameras are available at dirt cheap prices both in rentals and used sales. OK, not quite an SGI workstation in 1995, but the idea is similar.

I'm all for camera ownership, if it is for the right reasons.

 

[Scott H. Jones]

I once had a C300 owner try to compare his 8 bit / 50 megabit/sec camera to my EPIC... they aren't in the market for a RED... they do weddings or events for a living.

Andrae, I've agreed with most every post of yours I've read except this one. There are a whole bunch of DP's out there shooting national spots on 5Ds (and laughing all the way to the bank), much less C300s. Specs aren't everything, and the vast majority of people can't tell the difference between a $3,500 DSLR and a $38,000... no, scratch that, $19,000 Epic. Has no one on this forum seen the most recent Zacuto Shootout? With a little color grading ALL of the cameras look great in the hands of DP's who know what they are doing, and even the most seasoned DPs have trouble telling the difference.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Andrae, I've agreed with most every post of yours I've read except this one. There are a whole bunch of DP's out there shooting national spots on 5Ds (and laughing all the way to the bank), much less C300s. Specs aren't everything, and the vast majority of people can't tell the difference between a $3,500 DSLR and a $38,000... no, scratch that, $19,000 Epic. Has no one on this forum seen the most recent Zacuto Shootout? With a little color grading ALL of the cameras look great in the hands of DP's who know what they are doing, and even the most seasoned DPs have trouble telling the difference.

This is absolutely true. I have been on $100K/day commercials where the camera of choice was a 5D. Sometimes this comes down to politics, sometimes the DP owns the camera and wants to shoot with it, sometimes it's just the better choice for that project. I've also been on projects where I felt the 5D/7D was simply the wrong choice. But I can tell you they do appear way more often than you think, are not limited to weddings/event gigs, and have probably made some people a lot of money due to the low investment or rental cost.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

As I said, you were gambling. Worked well for a time but eventually it will catch you one way or another.

So ask yourself: If you were asked to place a bet, and 99% of the time the supermodel would jump your bones and screw your brains out, but 1% of the time swhe'd whip out a chainsaw and slice off your manhood, would you take that bet? If it worked out the first time, how many times do you try it again? Because eventually she will be pulling out the Black & Decker.

Analogy of the year!!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I had a big-ass post here, but never mind....


Haters gonna hate.


The industry is volatile now, just like most other tech industries. Agree with me or not, it's happening now.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jeff, I've always just assumed you do some really cool S#it. Even though you never reveal the full details, the hints are enough to know that it's not run of the mill stuff. Maybe some day you'll write a book. I'd read it.

 

[Elsie N]

I wonder what percentage of the "Rob-bed" crowd could have bought an R-1 and then be practically gifted an Epic in Stage 3 but didn't? Then afterwards jumping on the bandwagon in Stage 4 or the no-stage that has become the norm. It just seems a bit petty to blame RED because they were overly cautious and bought in too late... or too soon. I'm sure there are even some Stage 3 participants who are complaining, but if so, probably only because they haven't stopped to think back how sweet the trade-in deals were.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, I've always just assumed you do some really cool S#it. Even though you never reveal the full details, the hints are enough to know that it's not run of the mill stuff. Maybe some day you'll write a book. I'd read it.

The book would then self destruct in 5 seconds, after it killed you.


Seriously though, most of my work is corporate with a splash of government and commercials thrown in. The corporate world is very much soaked in NDA's, the government stuff requires varying levels of security clearance at times and I rarely get to leave premises with any footage. I don't think most of what I shoot or produce in these situations is anything truly amazing, but the quality demanded by most of my clients is what led to my journey with RED. Most of my big clients are visionary in their own way, most of them have a keen eye for technology. Well, that and I just like to geek out over all this stuff too. Outside of the "film biz", RED is the epitome of video camera gadgetry. Corporate CEO's and gadget-minded geeks are obsessed with RED and the EPIC. While none of them care what I shoot on, often their marketing people or agency dictates that anyway, I get more response and general geek fandom from the EPIC than any other camera. People who read Engadget, Wired, PopSci, etc.. all know about RED. Most of them would say, "ARRI who?" Many of the agencies set up commercials or other stuff and will often go with the Alexa or F23. I thought my last days of working with a 720p Varicam were behind me, but nope, directed a commercial shot on the Varicam last month.

My small media production company is just that, small. I'm the key player, my brother is a part time mad scientist, my wife runs the finances. ...My kids want to get in on the action too, but they're still a bit young. My daughter did go to RED camp just a couple months ago (I was there too)... My kids can't keep their hands off the new GoPro Hero3 cameras I've been receiving. Actually ended up giving them each one and told them "Merry Crhistmas! If you want anything else you better write a letter to Santa or ask your grandparents". My chief financial officer (wife) let me have it good for that... hehe.

Other than that, I co-own and co-operate two other companies. A construction / property management company. And a research company. That was mentioned in the big thread above I killed. The media and construction/ management companies make money... The research company eats most of that money. And no, we don't tell people what we research or why. Yes, I like mystery.