Feel robbed

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I wonder what percentage of the "Rob-bed" crowd could have bought an R-1 and then be practically gifted an Epic in Stage 3 but didn't? Then afterwards jumping on the bandwagon in Stage 4 or the no-stage that has become the norm. It just seems a bit petty to blame RED because they were overly cautious and bought in too late... or too soon. I'm sure there are even some Stage 3 participants who are complaining, but if so, probably only because they haven't stopped to think back how sweet the trade-in deals were.

I've just been wondering how many of the Stage-2 and Stage-3 EPIC program participants are feeling robbed right now. I have indeed seen posts by a couple people I know for a fact have EPICs from those stage programs, claiming they feel their investment just took a huge nosedive. All I can say is, wow...


And for those who complain about not being able to ROI their Stage-2 EPIC by now... I can only think of one thing to say... The novice warrior blames his sword.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

feeling ROBBED?

Your devalued camera shot THIS!!! watch full screen on 3ality site... THE HOBBIT

 

[Paul Ellington]

There are a collective group of RED 'HATERS' some might say with agendas.

 

[Timur Civan]

As I said, you were gambling. Worked well for a time but eventually it will catch you one way or another.

An investment banker described the collapse of the quickie-market computerized trading system in just this way. Companies sprang up that used computers to make trades in nanoseconds to pull quick profits floating the value between who was selling and who was buying. But then another company would come up with faster computers and a better algorithm. In the frenzy these companies began feeding off one another and it all became a game of squeezing pennies. But the real gamble was that the guy you hired to write the code didn't miss a loophole or accidentally transpose a couple of digits, because the only way to really test it was to run it live and if your program wasn't right then the other sharks would eat you alive. Companies with hundreds of millions in equity would suddenly be worthless.

So ask yourself: If you were asked to place a bet, and 99% of the time the supermodel would jump your bones and screw your brains out, but 1% of the time swhe'd whip out a chainsaw and slice off your manhood, would you take that bet? If it worked out the first time, how many times do you try it again? Because eventually she will be pulling out the Black & Decker.

Mitch thats response of the year, lol.... Reminds me of my Ex....

I completely see your point, nothing is set in stone. ITs just that usually the market dictates 2nd hand camera prices, not the manufacturer. IT worked out ok for me. I dodged a bullet. But others were not so lucky.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

If your business model is based on opportunistic gambles by having a window of exclusivity with a hunk of equipment, then I will say that you are chasing rainbows and destined to fail. RED is a company here to make money. They wish to make products and sell them, as many as possible. That's a forward thinking business plan. Yours is the definition of a short-lived get rich quick scheme. Such ventures always collapse, almost by design. It is not a smart way to enter into business, at least if you want to stay in the business. And if you don't want to give yourself stress-induced ulcers.

Opportunistic gambles is a part of my business model. In general a studio can't exist without a studio, a camera man can't be a camera man without a camera, a DP needs lights (well not now a days... lol), a sound man can't be a sound man without an audio package. So my point is that having access to resources or owning resources is very important. If I had access to certain resources faster than the other guy for the same prices... that's great.. it would give me an advantage. With saying this I've also said that I look for stable investments now also... that have nothing to do with the latest electronic tech. Our industry is largely gear related. Your company for example is not in the business of selling cheap paint brushes to talented people. I know I've definitely bought some very expensive equipment from you guys. To deny that these things gain advantages would just not be true.

I know Scorpio crane operators down here that have bought into a 250k package. To rent one is $4000 per day. You think they would like a person like me owning one for say $10000 and renting it for $500? I've even begged to be trained on one and they wouldn't like that either. All throughout this industry the financially advantageous have an edge due to their resources. The camera is just a small part of the pie... a very small part of the pie.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Sometimes renting can make sense... They will sell out of their BT Red ones quickly, Dragon will come out, and all this temporary bs will be forgotten. I mean with Dragon being so close to release, and there being a way to upgrade all the Epics, I don't see why this is such an issue. I mean you guys will get every penny back when your trade up for only 6k, when I am sure the Dragon brain will cost new owners a significant amount. I think reducing the price on the current gen right before the next generation emerges can be expected of any company...

It could all be a liquidation since they want to only sell Dragonized versions going forward? IE like the R1 M to MX program, subsequent price increase, etc. I don't think you guys are looking long term, Dragon is around the corner so getting rid of the current generation makes a lot of sense if they want to sell the next generation. The price decrease will not seem so bad when the new models are out and your gear is suddenly back to the same price it was 3 days ago... or more...for only 6k....

 

[Scott H. Jones]

I had a big-ass post here, but never mind.... Haters gonna hate.

I'm going to assume this was not aimed at me because I'm not a RED hater.

The industry is volatile now, just like most other tech industries. Agree with me or not, it's happening now.

The industry is most definitely volatile. RED started it and continues to be disruptive. That's their mantra. Ultimately I think it's good for everyone -- lots of high-quality, affordable choices out there now, all thanks to RED. I just hope, for RED's sake, that disruptive doesn't become self-destructive. This dramatic price drop was a questionable move. Not saying it was right or wrong, just questionable. Time will tell.

 

[Elan Gunos]

I share your sentiments Andrae. You're one of the few people here whose posts I silently read in the background yet seriously take into consideration—since you have the gear to back it up as opposed to most of the speculation that goes on around here. It's sad to see you switch to another brand, but that is very understandable in light of your situation especially as someone who rents Red gear for a living. It's also nice seeing behind the scenes pictures of facetmedia—looks like your influencing a new crop of upcoming filmmakers.

Opportunistic gambles is a part of my business model. In general a studio can't exist without a studio, a camera man can't be a camera man without a camera, a DP needs lights (well not now a days... lol), a sound man can't be a sound man without an audio package. So my point is that having access to resources or owning resources is very important. If I had access to certain resources faster than the other guy for the same prices... that's great.. it would give me an advantage. With saying this I've also said that I look for stable investments now also... that have nothing to do with the latest electronic tech. Our industry is largely gear related. Your company for example is not in the business of selling cheap paint brushes to talented people. I know I've definitely bought some very expensive equipment from you guys. To deny that these things gain advantages would just not be true.

I know Scorpio crane operators down here that have bought into a 250k package. To rent one is $4000 per day. You think they would like a person like me owning one for say $10000 and renting it for $500? I've even begged to be trained on one and they wouldn't like that either. All throughout this industry the financially advantageous have an edge due to their resources. The camera is just a small part of the pie... a very small part of the pie.

 

[Elsie N]

Go read Jarred's 4k Delivery... Get Ready thread. Then open your mind to the possibilities. Forget about the complaints on Reduser. Those are mostly from people reacting to what they see as a threat to their "Now". Anyone with gumption will not abandon RED when they are literally on the verge of world domination! I don't know if there will be loyalty rewards going forward, but RED loyalty in the past is legendary. Reactionaries always jump the wrong way based on their emotions. RED is poised for "something wonderful" to happen.

Self-destructive? RED has so many faithful followers they couldn't self-destruct if they tried. The customer base wouldn't allow it.

 

[andrewhake]

I love watching them all squirm.. The only people who feel robbed are those desperate to make a quick buck off of something the didn't fully understand. RED isn't a wholesale rental equipment provider, they are a camera company.

Your businesses were doomed from the beginning if the only thing you offered with any value was your equipment.

 

[James T Mather]

I'm going to be wary of ordering dragon initially - it'll probably drop in price down the line and I can pick one up for the price of a can of coke. happy days.

 

[Rex Phillips]

I know Scorpio crane operators down here that have bought into a 250k package. To rent one is $4000 per day. You think they would like a person like me owning one for say $10000 and renting it for $500? I've even begged to be trained on one and they wouldn't like that either. All throughout this industry the financially advantageous have an edge due to their resources. The camera is just a small part of the pie... a very small part of the pie.

That's #$%^ their protecting their own interests. Wait there will be a company building the same crane and it will sell for 10K. I hate when people exclude others from this "Film pack". Bull%^*(

Remember Avid with their media composer. I remember this quite well. Struggling with a feature film edit. Those Avid owners/editors were milking everyone. 100K until Apple came around and they did it for $1.5K. But that's how the world turns...right?

RED infused new filmmakers and artists on a playing field with the big film boys and I say THANK YOU.

 

[James T Mather]

RED infused new filmmakers and artists on a playing field with the big film boys and I say THANK YOU.

I'm really looking to seeing something worth watching at the local multiplex from these downtrodden filmmakers and artists who were so suppressed for so long by the big boys. Haven't seen much yet - but fingers crossed. Any day now.

 

[Steve Das]

I'm really looking to seeing something worth watching at the local multiplex from these downtrodden filmmakers and artists who were so suppressed for so long by the big boys. Haven't seen much yet - but fingers crossed. Any day now.

Hmm..not sure if you mean this..but comes off as incredibly bitter. All over a lousy $10-15k ?

As I am sure you're well aware of most projects come together with director..producer..
and dp relationships that have developed over many years..decades even.
And having a camera doesn't even get a newbies foot in that door. Just maybe a Toe.
.
And the amounts of money spent on even the lowest level of production with a
no name cast can gobble up the $10-15k cost of an outfitted Scarlet or used R-1MX package
in just one day of production shooting.

 

[Brice Ansel]

Hmm..not sure if you mean this..but comes off as incredibly bitter. All over a lousy $10-15k ?

As I am sure you're well aware of most projects come together with director..producer..
and dp relationships that have developed over many years..decades even.
And having a camera doesn't even get a newbies foot in that door. Just maybe a Toe.
.
And the amounts of money spent on even the lowest level of production with a
no name cast can gobble up the $10-15k cost of an outfitted Scarlet or used R-1MX package
in just one day of production shooting.

Depend of the story you want to talk about.
Yes it is an industry, but it doesn't mean you need 15K per day on your set.
Of course when you have no budget it is better to be smart and full of imagination.
Money and profit isn't the only factor when you have to be creative.
Maybe you should look at John Cassavetes and his economic model.
I'm sure this very specific director would have use a Red camera if he was still in our world. :-(

 

[Steve Das]

...Depend of the story you want to talk about.
Yes it is an industry, but it doesn't mean you need 15K per day on your set.

Well if you want to pay people and locations have you kinda do.

...Of course when you have no budget it is better to be smart and full of imagination.
Money and profit isn't the only factor when you have to be creative.
Maybe you should look at John Cassavetes and his economic model.
I'm sure this very specific director would have use a Red camera if he was still in our world. :-(

Absolutely good ideas are more important than money and even cameras. But the reality is you still need to get 10 people
to wake up at 6:00AM put gas in their car and eat breakfast and that all costs money.
John Cassavetes had contacts and connections from a 20 year acting career before he even shot his first movie.

 

[Brice Ansel]

Well if you want to pay people and locations have you kinda do.



Absolutely good ideas are more important than money and even cameras. But the reality is you still need to get 10 people
to wake up at 6:00AM put gas in their car and eat breakfast and that all costs money.
John Cassavetes had contacts and connections from a 20 year acting career before he even shot his first movie.

I don't know about the US, but here in France it is a comon thing to work for free when you want to support a good script and a director you believe in.
When all goes well the team share the cake.
Their is a life in the movie making outside of Hollywood way of thinking.
Money is one thing, but the most important at the end is the passion for your art.
Actually I would have never made my first movie more than 20 years ago without the freeish help from establish professionals.

Ps: I don't have the contacts of Mr Cassavetes but it happen to me frequently than actors friends ask me for some free work.
Because a talent prefer to work for free than waiting at home for the phone to ring.

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

There is no Rental of Epic anymore.
It was killed by Red. Every rental business which has bet on Epic this rental was killed by Red. Business of many people who made bet on RED was killed by RED.
Rental will be for Alexa. Epic will be just buying for every project.
Price for rental Epic will be 200 usd in a few month. Who could image in the begining of the year that would be so impact from RED. Of course it is good for new customers but for present it is a big impact from Red, for rental it is just killing business. And Red known it and doesn't do something good for these people maybe free update for Dragon or something like that. If Red will not do something for these people there is no RED as underdog anymore, there will be Red as Big Boss on the market.
And if would know when Red decided to reduce the price one, three, 10 months ago)
The next step maybe only to make new camera not upgrade for Epic but new camera better and cheaper then Epic)
And there will be Canon, Sony, Panasonic and...RED.
Everything is changing! Only marketing is eternal:yesnod:

 

[Brian Merlen]

excuse me but doesn't the dragon come out soon? won't all your Epics become Dragons thus restoring the rental/resale values? FOR ONLY 6 GRAND!!!????

Please guys try to keep some REALISTIC perspective in this. I would assume many of you were going to get the Dragon ANYWAY whether this price decrease happened or not...right?

 

[Paul Ellington]

excuse me but doesn't the dragon come out soon? won't all your Epics become Dragons thus restoring the rental/resale values? FOR ONLY 6 GRAND!!!????

Please guys try to keep some REALISTIC perspective in this. I would assume many of you were going to get the Dragon ANYWAY whether this price decrease happened or not...right?

Or Evolve which really is what RED is all about.