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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Feel robbed

Perhaps it would be better if the entire camera owner/operator model dies... if all cameras have similar features... then that means we can focus on other aspects of filmmaking such as lighting, grip and motion control... areas now that are often neglected. This is a brave new world for sure... but also some cool possibilities. I feel sorry for the ones that were hurt the most. I think it was unnecessary to do without Dragon being released. I also feel that it hurts the brand... but that's the timeline trajectory I guess... it's all prosumer from here on out.

ARRI and other lighting companies are going to be making a killing from all these new "filmmakers". Please RED... do not get into lighting. I have to have a stable investment in something.
 
Mitch Gross said:
A house is not a business investment. You buy a house to live in, and you amortize the cost over time with a mortgage. A house should increase in value over time, otherwise you did not buy well and your mortgage lender wouldn't be happy with your choice.

A camera is a tool. It devalues over time. When you buy a car and drive it off the lot, it loses 1/3 of its value instantly. I don't know about Russia, but in the US, the tax code is written so that a devaluing property can be written off in tax re-valuation over time. Depending on the item and the individual's tax position, on might choose 3 years, five years, even seven years.

For a professional camera I would choose the shortest possible time. Expect it to devalue quickly, to the point that it is a worthless doorstop. Write off the tax value and move on. That's siply smart business.

Do you get upset when you buy a computer and the next month the manufacturer comes out with a new model more powerful and lowers the price on the one you purchased? If so, you are tilting at windmills.
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Well put Mitch.
I am in a different boat. I purchased my Scarlet, one, it is what I could afford. Two, it was a way to get into the RED side of production. Three, it was a very cost effient way to ease my clients into the 4K realm.
I do not recall "audiophiles being to bummed they bought the first CD players for $2k when they first came out or the "videophiles" shelling out $$12k for the first plasma sets when there was little to no HD programming.
In this business, you sometimes have to take risks, you have to market and you have to be smart with your money.
I have a HDX900 that is about to be retired, $46k total investment, made my money, did some great work, time to move on. Sell it? Nope, I can still make some good picture with it.
Aleksey, I do not mean to lecture you, but if your company could afford to purchase 3 Epics, I imagine you had a business plan in place to pay it off? Your rates may go down a bit, maybe once a flurry of cheaper EPICs hit the market, I do not think it will be soon.
Don't diss RED, look, I am sitting here watching a $2400 Sony XBR9 that if I had waiting 18 months, I could have a better set that was cheaper and better.
Make great pictures, make some cash and enjoy those cameras.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Jim
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Perhaps it would be better if the entire camera owner/operator model dies... if all cameras have similar features... then that means we can focus on other aspects of filmmaking such as lighting, grip and motion control... areas now that are often neglected. This is a brave new world for sure...
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Shh...

Some of us worked that out a while ago. Don't tell everyone.
 
Liam Hall said:
Shh...

Some of us worked that out a while ago. Don't tell everyone.
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I figured it out a few months back and started to reinvest... but didn't think the change would be so rapid.
 
jamesbridges said:
I am sitting here watching a $2400 Sony XBR9 that if I had waiting 18 months, I could have a better set that was cheaper and better.
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Your example doesn't add up... RED didn't come out with a new product. Your examples are based on that.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
Your example doesn't add up... RED didn't come out with a new product..
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No, but Sony and Canon did. And it wont be long before Panasonic do. That's the point of all this. It has nothing to do with cost savings in the manufacturing process and everything to do with competition. There's a massive battle going on between camera companies and all the heavy hitters have turned up to the fight. I guess you are a casualty of war.
 
Liam Hall said:
No, but Sony and Canon did. And it wont be long before Panasonic do. That's the point of all this. It has nothing to do with cost savings in the manufacturing process and everything to do with competition. There's a massive battle going on between camera companies and all the heavy hitters have turned up to the fight. I guess you are a casualty of war.
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Still doesn't add up... no company has "released" a new "competitive" product or even prices. The Sony F5/F55 is not released. I hope Sony releases the F55 for 10k and then RED releases the EPIC Dragon to compete for 4K. That way I just pay 4k for a new body and won't have to wait for a sensor upgrade.

The Sony F55 was just a prototype in the demo video that was as loud as Sikorsky Super Stallion. What if it was just a ploy to drive RED bankrupt by dropping their prices? Is RED going to jump at every manufacturer with a new prototype and no releases?
 
Liam Hall said:
C500 is on the streets, available to buy and rent here in London.

And in the US:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855975-REG/Canon_EOS_C500_Cinema_EOS.html
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Thank you! I didn't know they they pushed it out. Edited my post after I checked and before you posted.

I still stand by my post... there is no product on the market in the 4k category that has more features than the RED Scarlet, RED One or RED EPIC. I didn't see Phillip Bloom or anyone I've heard of rushing to buy a C500... he sure seemed ecstatic about the Sony F55 though... largely due to it being a competitive product. So there is nothing threatening RED on the market. The people that buy a C500... aren't into narrative filmmaking. I once had a C300 owner try to compare his 8 bit / 50 megabit/sec camera to my EPIC. I just looked at him like he was crazy and walked away. Some folks will buy those cameras... but they aren't in the market for a RED... they do weddings or events for a living. That's not a market for RED to flourish in.
 
Have you seen the C500 projected in 4K? I have. It's impressive. Colours are very natural. Detail in the shadows is excellent. Highlights a little iffy, but overall, very impressive. I'm guessing the F5/55 will produce a pretty decent image too probably with more dynamic range. The game has changed, Red ain't the only player in town anymore. What price a used Epic when there are four or five cameras on the market that offer similar features at lower cost? Jim had to make a move, he's got accessories to sell...
 
Liam Hall said:
Have you seen the C500 projected in 4K? I have. It's impressive. Colours are very natural. Detail in the shadows is excellent. Highlights a little iffy, but overall, very impressive. I'm guessing the F5/55 will produce a pretty decent image too probably with more dynamic range. The game has changed, Red ain't the only player in town anymore. What price a used Epic when there are four or five cameras on the market that offer similar features at lower cost? Jim had to make a move, he's got accessories to sell...
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The F55/F5 should put out a far superior image. The C500 is still a 12 stop camera. The F55/F5 are 14+ stops. The F55 in particular is a 8k to 4k Downsample, including color information. The C500 just makes no sense to me.
 
If you feel robbed now, imagine how you'll feel when 6k RAW cameras are announced at NAB2013 for $6k (as in $6k for the entire, shootable camera) and will be available around the same time as Dragon is readily available (fall 2013). I wouldn't be surprised if BM drops that bombshell... and if not BM, than Kineraw... and if not them than Hero 4, etc. etc. etc. The floodgates are open and everyone will be gunning for at least 4k RAW at $4k (as in BT RED1mx)... That's gonna be the starting point. And realistically, with s35-sized CMOS sensors shooting baked in video for $500, there's no excuse not to have RAW for 12x the price (they already shoot 6fps RAW 18mp continuous... it won't cost them that much to make it 24fps continuous.)

Kidding... Seriously though, we're only racing to the bottom if Sony's F55 is priced lower than Epic and the Sony AXR5 RAW recorder is priced lower than Meisler module. I assume F55s will be $25k and the AXR5 (or whatever it's called) will be $5k+, and it's basically back to the same old story -- The big guys charging an insane amount more than their cameras are worth. On the flip side, (and the scary thing) is that if RED can make the Epic for $19k a pop (and still make, for example, $1k profit) how much do you think Sony/Canon (with their huge supply chain and huge customer base) could make the exact same camera for? 2/3rds that cost? Half? Definitely cheaper than RED anyway, but even if they did make the exact same camera for $9.5k cost, they wouldn't sell it for only $1k profit when they could sell it for $19k+ and make double their money.
 
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Mike P. said:
If you feel robbed now, imagine how you'll feel when 6k RAW cameras are announced at NAB2013 for $6k (as in $6k for the entire, shootable camera) and will be available around the same time as Dragon is readily available (fall 2013).
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I'm thinking the same... Singularity is near.
 
Andrae Palmer said:
I'm thinking the same... Singularity is near.
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Honestly, Singularity happend with the R1mx... I think RED was more surprised than anyone that it took Sony (and Canon, and Panny, etc. etc.) so long to finally catch on.

I thought for sure with the 5Dmark2 (2k8?) that Canon's next line of prosumer cameras were going to be 50mbit-422/FF35 and their professional cameras were going to 2k (minimum back in 2k8) RAW FF35... Instead they diddle-daddled for another TWO camera generations (4 years) before taking large sensors seriously. It's crazy. But now that Sony has RAW in their prosumer line, there's no hiding it... And with that, dynamic range, resolution, framerate, and even sensor size are no longer going to be what makes one camera better than another... It's going to be form-factor, ease of use, and/or price (or whichever one looks identical to film right out of the box... but is still RAW if you want to make it look extraordinary).
 
Bob Gundu said:
On board 4/5k is what is differentiating Red at the moment.
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Bob Gundu said:
...differentiating Red at the moment.
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Bob Gundu said:
...at the moment.
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Yeah, but you only have between now and NAB2013 -- 6 months -- and then everyone is going to show new wares which trumps what's currently announced. Let me put it another way; do you think having an Epic will give you $19k (minus Scarlet resale price) more dollars above what your current Scarlet would earn you between now and then? I'm not saying an F5/F55 could (actually, buying one of those in Feb, two months before NAB, would be downright foolish), I'm just pointing out that it's not a good time to sink lots of dollars into kit even if the knee-jerk reaction to the Epic price drop is to buy-buy-buy...

....Unless RED offered a full value trade in or you had a job that required high frame rates and/or 5k and would offset the cost substantially (OR, if RED ends up completely boning Scarlet owners come Dragon time...than people will be kicking themselves...)
 
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