Feel robbed

[James T Mather]

I actually want to know why the Alexa costs so much in contrast to what it does.

Alexa produces a nicer picture than the Epic that looks more filmlike. That is all. On paper, Epic beats it but out in the world it is requested on the basis of picture look. That is my experience with it.

 

[Casey Green]

Clueless? Really? When was the last time other digital cinema camera makers, including Red, lowered their price overnight? What is the Arri price drop? Until now, resale value faded gradually over time NEVER BEFORE OVERNIGHT FOR HIGH END PRO GEAR. Steadicam and other pro gear does not devalue much at all.

??? Every time the other camera companies released new models... that's when! If you owned model X and 6 months later, model Y came with specs that were twice as good as model X, your cameras was outdated and you had to sell and buy a new camera to stay in the game.

RED has found a way to stay relevant and continue to push the boundaries...

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Jeff you are one of the few people that I look out for and read on this list. Your IT contribution is fantastic....

But I feel when it comes to cameras we live in different worlds...Arri pretty much owns high end production in the UK and they have done this without a high resolution product? What happens when they make one...? 'Crushed... And left in the dust' really not seeing it.

I watched a painfully low resolution (and I am not a pixel peeper) bond that I firmly believe suffered (at a story level) from being a 239 extraction from a 2k camera. Why ?? Because Arri gets a lot right and low resolution was a price worth paying to shoot alexa. Red has had some real opportunities to be 'the' film makers camera and drops the ball too often (I do love the monochrome Epic and think that is a brilliant move).

As for price: on a personal level I don't like it but I am not impartial enough to really be sure if it is a good or bad thing. I think at a brand equity level (re the pro hire market) it is dangerous and I would have rather had them do it incrementally and with less noise.


Regards

Michael L

PS RED has a very important patent that is causing Arri some problems. When that becomes less of an issue (due to IT advances or another way around it) Arri will have a proper film successor. I really don't see them being crushed...

I actually want to know why the Alexa costs so much in contrast to what it does. Just because something is more expensive or its maker holds its price steady for a longer time, does not mean that product is better. We have become too accustomed to the camera industry being static with little progress and innovation at the high end. Prices fixed and static along with the technology. That is not the case now.


So what happens now if Sony and RED get into a camera "arms race"? Look what happened to CPUs in the late '90s between Intel and AMD. Moore's Law wasn't just exceeded, it was kicked to the curb and trampled. At one point Intel even publicly denounced it on their web site. Of course, they have re-written "Moore's Law" three or four times over the years to fit their marketing and most people think it's some kind of universal constant and don't realize it was a business strategy and in many ways still is today.

Sorry to go off on that tangent, but I bring up Moore's Law because Jim has referenced it repeatedly over the past couple years talking about EPIC and future developments. In other words, if you are paying attention, this won't surprise you. It means we should hold on to our hats because RED is going to push hard and keep pushing forward, regardless of what the other guys are doing. RED is going to keep upgrading EPIC and releasing new products. They will keep dropping prices as they can to offer the most powerful hardware to their customers at the lowest reasonable prices. They are not going to uphold artificial pricing structures like the other guys do. If they change suppliers and streamline their production, allowing them to drop a significant percentage off the manufacturing cost of the cameras, they are going to transfer that to their customers in some way.

This price drop has been looming for a while, as far as I can tell. It would have happened regardless of whether Sony announced the F5 and F55 or not. I think the timing of Sony's announcement played right into RED's hands though. It gave them a perfect excuse to do the price reduction now instead of at some other possible time -- like the first of the new year or whatever. The forums are buzzing here and on other sites and trade rags that discuss cameras. Sony's thunder was successfully muted a bit. The Sony cameras are going to be huge though, they will sell a lot of them. And Sony has yet to drop their major bomb -- probably at NAB they will announce their UltraHD 2/3" broadcast camera.

No matter how you look at it, all the current digital cameras, and any digital camera for that matter, is nothing more than a computer with an image sensor attached to it and dedicated internal software to capture, process and output or record what that sensor "sees". Computer technology evolves, it continues to get better and cheaper. IIRC, I believe the ASICs in EPIC are a 32nm process. The silicon industry is mostly transitioning to processes in the range of 20 to 22 nm. You can bet RED will follow suit and cram more ASICs into the same space, more processing power, larger and higher density sensors, and this stuff continues to get cheaper to manufacture.

Other camera companies that don't follow suit will be fine for the near term. In the long term, they won't survive. I think RED, Sony and Canon are going to lead the way. I'm willing to bet that ARRI exits the camera business within the next 10 years and sticks to making lights and accessories. That prediction is somewhat dire, but unless they pick up the pace and examine their business model they're going to be left in the dust or crushed in the wake of others moving through.

This fast pace is RED's best chance as the underdog in this industry too. If they stop moving, the big guys like Sony would trample them. They need to keep running as fast as they can without looking back. With the right products, they could just win the race. In another 5 or 6 years, cameras the size of GoPros will be shooting UltraHD/4K at 60Hz with near lossless compression and no rolling shutter / jell-o skew and they will cost less than they do now. I'm willing to bet that by the time the 10th generation iPhone arrives, it will be shooting UltraHD as well. On Apple's current schedule, that's about 7 years out. We have already gone from 360p to 720p to 1080p in a little under that time with the iPhone. Just sayin'

 

[Glen Powell]

Buy the camera model that suits your needs, and make your money back quickly… Every camera that I've ever owned; I still own. Resale has never been part of my equation, nor has 3rd party rentals; I buy equipment to use on my own productions.

Our 2nd scarlet (one of the BT specials) arrived a week ago - and by the end of next week will have paid for itself already. I work those things like rented mules, and I don't understand why anyone who only does 5 or 6 days of paid shooting would ever buy a camera. (other than to shoot everyday and increase their skill level)

For the guys who jump in and complain that Scarlet is wrecking their Epic rentals - *sigh* - any job that we use our scarlets for (90%+ of the jobs) it's because 4KHD @RC 3:1 (shit even RC 8:1), 24 / 30fps is overkill for 1080p TV delivery. If we need a higher framerate then we'll sub rent an Epic; even then we'll often jump over the Epic and actually rent a Phantom.

It's a tool, it's a tool, it's a tool - one that will become obsolete, and cheaper over time at an ever increasing speed. If you look at cameras as an investment that will return profit on re-sale, you will from this point forward always loose. You would have a better return on C stands.

I get hired not for the equipment I own, because here in Toronto film equipment can be rented cheaply from several big suppliers - but because producer like to see me on set, or clients like my end product. 2-3 years from now the Scarlets (and I'm sure the Epic Dragons that I'll buy next spring) will be sitting on a shelf in the equipment room gathering dust with the HVX200's, Af100's, Arri 16M, and so on...

 

[Andrae Palmer]

What hurts more... a company that releases a new product with better features and therefore the value of your old camera drops in the used market... or a company that just decided to drop $15000 off their camera price overnight without a new model being available?

 

[Glen Powell]

What hurts more... a company that releases a new product with better features and therefore the value of your old camera drops in the used market... or a company that just decided to drop $15000 off their camera price overnight without a new model being available?

To me neither - My RED's will still fire up on my shoots Monday, Tuesday, Thursday of this coming week. After that they will continue to work and produce stellar images for the bookings the week after, and before any of the new cameras from Sony, Canon, et-al ship in 2013 there will be a new camera from RED (at least a new sensor / computer to put in your old body). & guess what - it will be more affordable than the upgrade path from all the other manufacturers who essentially make most of the peripherals obsolete when the new models come out. Hands up: who has a box of gear that's model specific for cameras that are obsolete?

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I actually want to know why the Alexa costs so much in contrast to what it does.

My theory?

ALEXA made a camera that fit into the existing pipelines, even as they only delivered the minimum viable resolution. It was their "minimum viable product" strategy. But they ruffled no feathers with the product because it fit into the existing pipelines. Is it a better product? For those invested in those pipelines, yes. For those who are not, like myself, I couldn't care less. And so, the existing groupthink recommended that camera to the decision makers, and thus, increased its demand. More than it should ever have been.

RED made a camera that disrupted all existing workflow pipelines. New pipelines mean more expense/learning etc. Unfortunately, RED didn't make that VERY easy. Maybe if the Meisler module had been introduced a while back, and if it was very, very affordable, it'd have helped. Who knows?

I still wish, wish, wish RED had allocated some of their profits to addressing this difference. Reduce the Meisler cost for ALL REDusers, invest in REDCineX, invest in rock-solid builds that fill some of the feature gaps etc. Oh well. It'd have helped the REDTroops really go out there and fight the fight.

I'm sure Jim & Co., know exactly what they are doing. I always try to keep in mind that they have a helluva lot more information than we do, so our speculation is a bit of a game, and mainly just for fun. I don't even know how much they really take these forum posts into consideration. Its probably more a way to keep tabs on the pulse of the community and do some expectation management.

All those who keep talking about Cameras/depreciation/breakeven timelines etc are missing the point, IMHO. This isn't about the camera and its pricepoint. We are trying to make the RED ecosystem the defacto standard. That's the holy grail. Cameras will come and go. Yes, even the EPIC. I wish, wish, wish RED had thrown those of us who think this way, a bone or two, in this recent move of theirs.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

To me neither - My RED's will still fire up on my shoots Monday, Tuesday, Thursday of this coming week. After that they will continue to work and produce stellar images for the bookings the week after, and before any of the new cameras from Sony, Canon, et-al ship in 2013 there will be a new camera from RED (at least a new sensor / computer to put in your old body). & guess what - it will be more affordable than the upgrade path from all the other manufacturers who essentially make most of the peripherals obsolete when the new models come out. Hands up: who has a box of gear that's model specific for cameras that are obsolete?

Wasn't the Dragon sensor suppose to be released this month?

If I bought an ARRI Alexa for 90k and they came out with a new ARRI 4K camera for 90k or even 50K. Couldn't I still sell my old Alexa and use those funds towards the new Alexa at 50K or 90K? In a rental market where the Alexa commands a higher rental rate wouldn't I be more enabled to make that purchase?

Now if you bought an EPIC 35 days a go for $34500... didn't you suffer a $15000 loss over night which is 45% of your purchase value and now you still have to pay for the Dragon sensor upgrade to move up to the new model. So that's $21000. That's a 61% devaluation overnight. Forgive me but I don't see how the sensor upgrade path makes any difference.

 

[Glen Powell]

My theory?

ALEXA made a camera that fit into the existing pipelines, even as they only delivered the minimum viable resolution. It was their "minimum viable product" strategy. But they ruffled no feathers with the product because it fit into the existing pipelines. Is it a better product? For those invested in those pipelines, yes. For those who are not, like myself, I couldn't care less. And so, the existing groupthink recommended that camera to the decision makers, and thus, increased its demand. More than it should ever have been.

Definitely a point to consider - there is also the ARRI name recognition; especially in markets where the 435 / 535 dominated production. Producers knew & trusted the name, Ac's & DP's felt that they were standing on set with a familiar old friend.

 

[Glen Powell]

Wasn't the Dragon sensor suppose to be released this month?

If I bought an ARRI Alexa for 90k and they came out with a new ARRI ALexa 4K for 90k or even 50K. Couldn't I still sell my old Alexa and use those funds towards the new Alexa at 50K or 90K? In a rental market where the Alexa commands a higher rental rate wouldn't I be more enabled to make that purchase?

Now if you bought an EPIC 35 days a go for $34500... didn't you suffer a $15000 loss over night which is 45% of your camera value and now you still have to pay for the Dragon sensor upgrade to move up to the new model. So that's $21000. That's a 60% devaluation overnight. Forgive me but I don't see how the sensor upgrade path makes any difference.

I think you are missing something - and your math gymnastics are somewhat flawed. Just by having any camera shipped to you it loses value. I see a lot of high asking prices for used RED cameras (some even trying to sell used gear for more than new prices, and that's before the price drop) But what were used Epics / scarlets actually selling for? What price has the market actually been returning? That should be your starting point if you insist on the (I believe) flawed logic that you buy a camera to resell it at the same value.

For myself - I buy equipment to make money, lots-o-money and to make pretty pictures for clients; I can continue to do both so this announcement affects me zero beyond being able to replace my current cams more cheaply.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Alexa produces a nicer picture than the Epic that looks more filmlike.

I could argue the contrary. Does it fit reality?
Film like... What is that?
I m getting tired of those bold statements.

Pat

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I think you are missing something - and your math gymnastics are somewhat flawed. Just by having any camera shipped to you it loses value. I see a lot of high asking prices for used RED cameras (some even trying to sell used gear for more than new prices, and that's before the price drop) But what were used Epics / scarlets actually selling for? What price has the market actually been returning? That should be your starting point if you insist on the (I believe) flawed logic that you buy a camera to resell it at the same value.

For myself - I buy equipment to make money, lots-o-money and to make pretty pictures for clients; I can continue to do both so this announcement affects me zero beyond being able to replace my current cams more cheaply.

What are used EPICs selling for NOW is the question? If you bought a EPIC body for 34k... your likely selling price now will be less than 19k. More like 15 to 16k. So that's over a 50% loss. So I don't understand your logic.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Btw this thread is about robbery. What has this Alexa/Epic battle to with it?


Pat

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Alexa produces a nicer picture than the Epic that looks more filmlike. That is all. On paper, Epic beats it but out in the world it is requested on the basis of picture look. That is my experience with it.

In YOUR opinion...more filmic? I could not disagree more! Have you seen NBC GRIMM? VIDEO-YY thats what I would call the plastic skin tones and sure maybe its the grade... but I can EASILY match Alexa footage on any RED camera by dropping a Digicon 1/8 or 1/4 in front of the lens. That is their "secret sauce" to baking in their image to Prores, a low con filter.

Your negative bias towards Red is obvious... we get it afte ryour last 5 posts... but saying any camera has a better look is entirely SUBJECTIVE... and depends on the grade. Alexa has brand-washed people more than any brand in our industry. Its that simple and that difficult. The ONLY reason pepple pay more is brand loyalty... and they designed their cameras for ease of use for their DOMINANCE in Camera accessories ... this is where RED needs the most work

The MEIZLER module is the first step in the right direction. No offense meant to Matt's uber cool designs... but disrupting the image game was RED's smartest move... trying to reinvent camera accessories that were developed over 100 years of filmmaking for SPEED... was Red's biggest mistake. imho.

If they want to tread on Arri, they need to make their cameras more UNION AC friendly... that simple and that hard. Filming professionally, is almost always about SPEED as TIME = MONEY.

 

[Glen Powell]

What are used EPICs selling for now is the question? If you bought a EPIC body for 34k... your likely selling price now will be less than 19k. More like 15 to 16k. So that's over a 50% loss. So I don't understand your logic.

What I don't understand is your insistence that people purchase cameras as an investment that will pay increased dividends when they sell later. You seem to want to insist that cameras are used as an investment tool like Gold / silver / stocks & bonds - rather than as tools make profit by creating content that can be sold. (and if you live in Florida you must see everyday that even stock markets crash and devalue everything… I'm now the proud owner of pennies on the dollar Florida real estate)

I've never once bought a camera that was something to sit on a shelf and sell later; I buy these things to work hard and create images for clients to get paid.Cameras make money by working, not as monetary investment instruments.

Andrae - Are you pissed because you want to sell your cameras? Or are you pissed because you feel that the images they produce are somehow now worth less? I don't get it? I suppose you get pissed off every time your chosen computer maker drops prices at Best Buy for the model you bought last week / month / year?

Maybe I should be pissed off that the 2011 pickup truck I purchased cost me more than the 2012 exact same model costs today - damn! GM owes me $10,000!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

What I don't understand is your insistence that people purchase cameras as an investment that will pay increased dividends when they sell later.

Yes I'm pissed... when I bought my EPICs I thought I was purchasing GOLD and now I'm mad that they are not going up in price. LOL! You have me figured out.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

trying to reinvent camera accessories that were developed over 100 years of filmmaking for SPEED... was Red's biggest mistake. imho.

If they want to tread on Arri, they need to make their cameras more UNION AC friendly... that simple and that hard. Filming professionally, is almost always about SPEED as TIME = MONEY.

Could not disagree more. RED should disrupt the entire cinema workflow. It sucks. It has resisted change. It needs to evolve.

RED just needs to empower those of us bought into the RED ecosystem so we can create new workflows. And I mean, onset workflows. Not just post workflows.

RED can't afford to play the game. It needs to create a new game.

edit: btw, this may be where the radical price cut may end up being a genius move. it may create that installed base that gives us critical mass. still, wish RED had also considered immediate competitive factors/needs.

 

[Zeb B]

Canon 5DII introduced over 4 years ago in September 2008: price $2200

Price 4 years later = $2200 less a $400 rebate

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583953-REG/Canon_2764B003_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html

That would be electronics gear holding value. I don't accept the notion that all movie making gear depreciates at the 45% per year level that my RED Epic has. Seems like the "M" was just significantly over priced to begin with to subsidize the "Stage" program and Scarlet development. Much like an economic redistribution program where a chosen group benefits from others contribution. RED pricing does not seem to fit any known marketing strategy I have ever studied. It seems reactionary to what Sony and Canon are doing rather than based on a anything beneficial to those who bought in recently and have demonstrated brand loyalty.

My take away from all this is to rent anything RED related and buy PL lenses, tripods and related gear that holds value. With the new pricing there will no doubt be Epic basic packages renting for $100/day making ownership an economic luxury.

Funny really - back in the day no one owned Cinema Cameras because they were too expensive so they were just rented on a project basis. Going forward the same could be said for RED cameras because they will be so cheap to rent. What's old is new

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

What are used EPICs selling for NOW is the question? If you bought a EPIC body for 34k... your likely selling price now will be less than 19k. More like 15 to 16k. So that's over a 50% loss. So I don't understand your logic.

Andrae, that's a paper loss. Unless you sell, you don't book it.

I think the more important point here is that NEW entrants to the game can now spend the same amount of money you spent not so long ago, and compete against you by effectively getting the Meizler module for free. That's the bummer for stage 4 owners who have to shell out extra to get to parity.

Its sort of an infighting angle this move created, which RED could have avoided by adding some price drops to the still-to-ship modules and existing modules that are useful to compete against ALEXA. Its all a bit unfortunate honestly.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

In YOUR opinion...more filmic? I could not disagree more! Have you seen NBC GRIMM? VIDEO-YY thats what I would call the plastic skin tones and sure maybe its the grade... but I can EASILY match Alexa footage on any RED camera by dropping a Digicon 1/8 or 1/4 in front of the lens. That is their "secret sauce" to baking in their image to Prores, a low con filter.

You often claim this. Can you please demonstrate by showing us an example of a scene or still from Red Epic with ALEXA like high-light roll-off and the same "naturally"/organic saturated vivid colours?

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/103/81782017.jpg

http://images2.static-bluray.com/reviews/5474_2.jpg

And BTW:
Shooting a scene lit like this on the Epic would probably generate magenta high-lights...
http://members.optusnet.com.au/aurz/driveUSA.JPG