Feel robbed

[Carlos Reyes]

I think Arri will have an upgrade path, they just as red can resell old 1920x1080 Alexas. As they still are very good use in the TV industry. But then again why all this trade in, is it not easer that we use ebay when we need to update our cameras.

Taking an old camera braking it appart and putting a new sensor in there seems like quite a hassle instead of selling the camera and buying a new one, or? I mean the important part for me is that the modules and such stays as much the same as possible from one generation to the next. Not like canon that comes out with a new charger for every thing they let out trough the door.

If Arri indeed offers an upgrade path I would say RED has succeeded in shaking up the industry. But 6k for a practically new camera seems much easier then having to go through the hassle of selling it buying the new one and probably buying a bunch of new accessories and modules made for the new system. But this is just speculation on my part

 

[Mitch Gross]

Beautiful. Do you live in you own house? How much does it cost? For example it cost $100k , tomorrow morning you will understand that is cost $ 55k. It still have windows, doors and kitchen. Nothing changes to you? Right? Everything ok. But you look around and understand that those guys from nearest houses didnt loose cost of their property and will never loose, just because they made business with Germans.

I was truly fan of EPICs - i know everything about rigs, additional devices and all around. But im not a fan of spoofs and those types of jokes with me.

Business should not be a lottery. And RED says otherwise it is - and you have to live with that.

P.S. It looks like 17 august 1998 in Russian Federation for me today.

A house is not a business investment. You buy a house to live in, and you amortize the cost over time with a mortgage. A house should increase in value over time, otherwise you did not buy well and your mortgage lender wouldn't be happy with your choice.

A camera is a tool. It devalues over time. When you buy a car and drive it off the lot, it loses 1/3 of its value instantly. I don't know about Russia, but in the US, the tax code is written so that a devaluing property can be written off in tax re-valuation over time. Depending on the item and the individual's tax position, on might choose 3 years, five years, even seven years.

For a professional camera I would choose the shortest possible time. Expect it to devalue quickly, to the point that it is a worthless doorstop. Write off the tax value and move on. That's siply smart business.

Do you get upset when you buy a computer and the next month the manufacturer comes out with a new model more powerful and lowers the price on the one you purchased? If so, you are tilting at windmills.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I don't understand how people can feel as if they "lost money". Did anyone actually expect the sales price of these cameras to hold steady over time? When technology is finally starting to shake loose and develop at the rate it should within a stagnant industry, how can anyone be upset?

As Jim so eloquently put it, the camera is an investment in yourself. Your work should say who you are and should dictate the rates you charge. If you find that your business model is based on the value of your tools, you're pretty much screwed. The value of any complex electronic device will diminish rapidly, even if the retail sales prices of new units holds steady.

Another way to look at it is this... Computers don't hold their value at all. They are obsoleted in 12 to 18 months and this never stops. And we often see intermittent price drops along the way to this obsolescence. Still, we see countless people buying them, using them, making money with them, etc... Go out and use your camera, make something great with it. It may even pay for itself several times over. If you're concerned about resale value or "shelf value" of a technological device, why did you buy it?

I'm not in a major film production market by any means. And yet there is lots of competition here from owner/operators and dirt-cheap rental kits. I refuse to take part in the rat race to the bottom, so I learned to rise above it. My services and my work speak for themselves and dictate my rates, they justify me owning cameras, lenses, computers and other gear. I could never ROI this equipment on operator rates or daily rental rates. I have to make something of it.


I'm a firm believer that if you know what you're doing, you can make more money using your equipment than you can by renting it out. The only down-side to that is if your market is relatively low-priced compared to your equipment, you may have some trouble. OTOH, what other equipment are you going to buy? The prices on pro HD cameras are higher than Scarlet or EPIC in most cases. So, if you have the clientele to keep busy, you should have no trouble sustaining your equipment and upgrades, even after a price drop like this. Heck, we get a major upgrade and new sensor at the price of $6K for each of my EPICs. Who else is offering that?

I would be curious if the OP bought his EPICs earlier this year, meaning that he is most likely eligible for FREE Dragon upgrades on his camera. Something myself and most of the early adopters do not get. I have to pay $6K, just like everyone who buys now does. And it's still a great deal.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

it's clear that really pissed people out there are renters, not the filmmakers. I can understand. They invested a lot of money with Red, a business model promoted by Red 6 months ago. What has happen is unprecedented in our industry. I agree bob, they still make beautiful images, and for the filmmaker not as much has changed. For the renter everything has changed for that I take some putty on them.

Dude I AM A FILMAKER. But BECAUSE I AM NOT AN IDIOT I bought our Epic with a hope of getting a fair return RENTING MOSTLY TO OUR OWN CLIENTS, INSTEAD OF RENTING THE SAME CAMERA FROM OTHER PEOPLE - and doing the same work. BEING CLUELESS ABOUT HOW BUSINESS AND ACCOUNTING WORK DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER ARTIST.

 

[Mitch Gross]

BEING CLUELESS ABOUT HOW BUSINESS AND ACCOUNTING WORK DOES NOT MAKE YOU BETTER ARTIST.

Correct. It makes you a poor businessperson.

Don't get into the business of owning gear unless you are prepared to be in the BUSINESS of owning gear. Otherwise it is a hobby.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

A house is not a business investment. You buy a house to live in, and you amortize the cost over time with a mortgage. A house should increase in value over time, otherwise you did not buy well and your mortgage lender wouldn't be happy with your choice.

A camera is a tool. It devalues over time. When you buy a car and drive it off the lot, it loses 1/3 of its value instantly. I don't know about Russia, but in the US, the tax code is written so that a devaluing property can be written off in tax re-valuation over time. Depending on the item and the individual's tax position, on might choose 3 years, five years, even seven years.

For a professional camera I would choose the shortest possible time. Expect it to devalue quickly, to the point that it is a worthless doorstop. Write off the tax value and move on. That's siply smart business.

Do you get upset when you buy a computer and the next month the manufacturer comes out with a new model more powerful and lowers the price on the one you purchased? If so, you are tilting at windmills.

But Pro gear, unlike a laptop, car, house or anything else - SHOULD be only a business investment, unless what you buy cannot be rented where you live. Otherwise it is just math - would it be cheaper to own thing, or rent it when I need it?

 

[Mike P.]

Dude I AM A FILMAKER. But BECAUSE I AM NOT AN IDIOT I bought our Epic with a hope of getting a fair return RENTING MOSTLY TO OUR OWN CLIENTS, INSTEAD OF RENTING THE SAME CAMERA FROM OTHER PEOPLE - and doing the same work. BEING CLUELESS ABOUT HOW BUSINESS AND ACCOUNTING WORK DOES NOT MAKE YOU BETTER ARTIST.

Apparently, being clueless about how technology works does not make you a better at business man or accountant either.

 

[Bob Gundu]

man it's getting hot in here. (hold on... let me open a window)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Correct. It makes you a poor businessperson.

Don't get into the business of owning gear unless you are prepared to be in the BUSINESS of owning gear. Otherwise it is a hobby.

Prepared, and happy about events where your business is adversely affected by a company you deeply trusted not to do things like that are two different things. Just because I will survive (because I was prepared) does not mean I should be happy about this.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Apparently, being clueless about how technology works does not make you a better at business man or accountant either.

Clueless? Really? When was the last time other digital cinema camera makers, including Red, lowered their price overnight? What is the Arri price drop? Until now, resale value faded gradually over time NEVER BEFORE OVERNIGHT FOR HIGH END PRO GEAR. Steadicam and other pro gear does not devalue much at all.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Rob, if all this is about you not being happy about this.... I think we all get it. You need to find a way to move on or you're seriously going to suffer from irritable bowl syndrome.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

As Jim so eloquently put it, the camera is an investment in yourself. Your work should say who you are and should dictate the rates you charge. If you find that your business model is based on the value of your tools, you're pretty much screwed.

Hey Jeff,

I want to prove your theory wrong. Let Jim Jannard give me the first two Dragon sensor EPICs manufactured (and all the cool accessoriest first) and i'll document how it has affected my business growth. I have no talent whatsoever and this theory will be based on the fact that owning the equipment first... when it's most valuable and in demand is what's most important.

To have a few variables... don't let Ketch Rossi for example get the Dragon sensor and we'll see who gets the most work and makes the most money. Let the study have a one year duration. What do you guys say?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob, if all this is about you not being happy about this.... I think we all get it. You need to find a way to move on or you're seriously going to suffer from irritable bowl syndrome.

I am moving on - I'm shooting soon (just got a request from the producer, who heard about the price drop, to lower our rental rate for the camera, BTW - thanks Red! But of course I AM SO GLAD that complete strangers can get the Epic cheap now, that losing money means nothing to me - sarcasm), and I am about to close Redsuer's window for a while now to get back to business. I did feel Red needed to hear that price drops are not just "wonderful" and that even people like me, who have been accused of being a Red fanboy I am such a strong proponent of the company, are upset by this, and what the perfectly rational reasons are for this discontent.

I also felt that young people need to realize that buying vs. rental is a business decision having nothing to do with art. You can do the exact same art with rented gear (unless you live somewhere where rental houses do not exist)- if you make gear purchase vs rental choices with your "passion" then you are really heading into never making a good living - you could even end up working all the time and going bankrupt. This is a serious matter.

Film schools should add basic business classes to their curriculums.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

RED gave a lot of bonuses to EARLY adopters. We remember that.

RED has now given a massive price cut to NEW adopters.

Why is it so hard to understand that the ones in the middle (stage 4 to ~31 days ago) might feel a bit screwed as they didn't even get as much as a discount on the Meizler module etc which might help them compete with the Alexa? Specially, when the prices they paid helped RED recoup NRE costs?

Is it that hard to understand? Really?

I fully support the price cut and infact would have liked RED to offer a sub-10K shooting solution (brain + ssd + lens mount + monitor + a media card). So there. The price cut isn't the issue for me atleast. Its just that there was no consideration given to a whole base of users who took the brunt of the disadvantage of this move, and got little of the financial advantage. Let's not talk about intangible advantages please - the EARLY adopters got, and the NEW adopters are getting FINANCIAL advantages.

I still think RED will get around to what Bjorn suggested earlier. And what I thought would have been another strategic move for RED to counter ALEXA. Let's wait and see.

But I think RED could have leveled it out a bit. The lower brain price is great for new users... and simply not so great old users. I think everyone including, RED, new users and old users would have benefitted If red just lowered the price on the brains just a little bit less and took what was left and used it to lower prices on the rest of their gear... A price cut on Miezler would probably be huge among the old users also it would improve RED's reputation in the field, the more wireless / proxy cameras out there the better fo all of us. But it might be so that Mr Jannard has calculated to gain so much form selling more cameras for less so he can lower the price on the modules soon as well

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The landscape has changed. Those who bought into Red One early have had five years to really milk it. Even with the release of Epic and Scarlet, there was still demand for R1. Perhaps that gave the false illusion that Epic would also hold it's value for quite a while. However, I think Red One was an anomaly. Sort of a first of it's kind that didn't really see stiff competition until Alexa and Epic came along.

So, here's the deal guys. I see both sides of the argument. I can see why Rob and others would feel frustrated. I think it's possible to sympathize with people in this situation while also realizing that the decision has been made and it's time now for everyone to adapt. My guess is that Rob will now look to other value adds that can help his bottom line and keep his rates in a territory that he is comfortable with. It's an adjustment. For those who are just getting into owning a RED, this announcement is great news. I am very happy for people who have wanted to be able to afford one of these cameras for a long time. Now may be that time.

For me, I have personally not felt the need to own another expensive camera system since owning the R1. Why? Because I was never really into it for the rental fees. Yes, they helped pay off the camera and that was a good thing, but ultimately I wanted the camera to incorporate into my own productions, both commercially and ones that are simply passion projects such as short films and music videos. I have also had the good fortune to work as a DIT over the past few years, thanks in large part to the demand created by the release of the R1. So, the best investment I can make now is in myself. Using the tools to the best of my ability to create decent work that draws in clients and forming long lasting relationships via the most critical skill of all - people skills! No camera in the world can teach that. I'm also finding myself less obsessed with the technical specs and more interested in how to make engaging content. In a lot of ways, buying the camera is the easy part. Doing something great with it is much harder and requires a lot of time invested in learning what it takes to make that great content. It's something I feel I need even more time invested in order to grow business.

Everyone has a view on this and most likely it revolves around how one has setup their business and it's understandable that there would be different emotional reactions. As I have encouraged before, try to keep personal attacks to a minimum if possible. A public forum is something for everyone to see and you never know who is reading, who may be a potential client or colleague in the future. We all have a right to our opinions. It's how we express them and conduct ourselves that we will be judged on.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Points well taken Rob. Good luck with your shoot! I truly mean it

I am moving on - I'm shooting soon (just got a request from the producer, who heard about the price drop, to lower our rental rate for the camera, BTW - thanks Red! But of course I AM SO GLAD that complete strangers can get the Epic cheap now, that losing money means nothing to me - sarcasm), and I am about to close Redsuer's window for a while now to get back to business. I did feel Red needed to hear that price drops are not just "wonderful" and that even people like me, who have been accused of being a Red fanboy I am such a strong proponent of the company, are upset by this, and what the perfectly rational reasons are for this discontent.

I also felt that young people need to realize that buying vs. rental is a business decision having nothing to do with art. You can do the exact same art with rented gear (unless you live somewhere where rental houses do not exist)- if you make gear purchase vs rental choices with your "passion" then you are really heading into never making a good living - you could even end up working all the time and going bankrupt. This is a serious matter.

Film schools should add basic business classes to their curriculums.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

The landscape has changed. Those who bought into Red One early have had five years to really milk it. Even with the release of Epic and Scarlet, there was still demand for R1. Perhaps that gave the false illusion that Epic would also hold it's value for quite a while. However, I think Red One was an anomaly. Sort of a first of it's kind that didn't really see stiff competition until Alexa and Epic came along.

So, here's the deal guys. I see both sides of the argument. I can see why Rob and others would feel frustrated. I think it's possible to sympathize with people in this situation while also realizing that the decision has been made and it's time now for everyone to adapt. My guess is that Rob will now look to other value adds that can help his bottom line and keep his rates in a territory that he is comfortable with. It's an adjustment. For those who are just getting into owning a RED, this announcement is great news. I am very happy for people who have wanted to be able to afford one of these cameras for a long time. Now may be that time.

For me, I have personally not felt the need to own another expensive camera system since owning the R1. Why? Because I was never really into it for the rental fees. Yes, they helped pay off the camera and that was a good thing, but ultimately I wanted the camera to incorporate into my own productions, both commercially and ones that are simply passion projects such as short films and music videos. I have also had the good fortune to work as a DIT over the past few years, thanks in large part to the demand created by the release of the R1. So, the best investment I can make now is in myself. Using the tools to the best of my ability to create decent work that draws in clients and forming long lasting relationships via the most critical skill of all - people skills! No camera in the world can teach that. I'm also finding myself less obsessed with the technical specs and more interested in how to make engaging content. In a lot of ways, buying the camera is the easy part. Doing something great with it is much harder and requires a lot of time invested in learning what it takes to make that great content. It's something I feel I need even more time invested in order to grow business.

Everyone has a view on this and most likely it revolves around how one has setup their business and it's understandable that there would be different emotional reactions. As I have encouraged before, try to keep personal attacks to a minimum if possible. A public forum is something for everyone to see and you never know who is reading, who may be a potential client or colleague in the future. We all have a right to our opinions. It's how we express them and conduct ourselves that we will be judged on.

We need more measured responses like this on REDuser. For me, both the people 'yay'ing and 'nay'ing are two sides of the same coin. Fact is, RED did what's best for them, as they should. We all need to adapt to it, and work with it. I hope RED does consider all angles of the impact this strategic and pre-emptive move had. I don't buy this was a marketplace driven move. RED doesn't wait for the market to tell it what to do. It creates the market, as it certainly did with this move.

Now, maybe some love and focus on those who were already part of the RED ecosystem...? In a month, this thread will be forgotten and buried, believe me.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

You can practice a 2 different tactics here...

1. Buy the camera before the spec. is not even finished, then you are able to grow in your market before your competitors even made it to the race course. You learn early and stay ahead of the game.
2. Play safe, sit back until things cool down then buy what's seems most relevant. You let the other guys do all the new tech mistakes. Burn their clients on tech that just was not right etc.

Regarding RED I think people around here got a bit spoiled buying the RED One's. It's not normal for a digital camera to last for 5 years and it's for sure not normal to get full down payment back when upgrading to the next generation. Digital professional tools usually comes at a high price and end in the trash within 3-5 years.

But I think RED could have leveled it out a bit. The lower brain price is great for new users... and simply not so great old users. I think everyone including, RED, new users and old users would have benefitted If red just lowered the price on the brains just a little bit less and took what was left and used it to lower prices on the rest of their gear... A price cut on Miezler would probably be huge among the old users also it would improve RED's reputation in the field, the more wireless / proxy cameras out there the better fo all of us. But it might be so that Mr Jannard has calculated to gain so much form selling more cameras for less so he can lower the price on the modules soon as well

Perfect.

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

I enjoyed this tremendously. And yes you have a nice comfortable home. Much better then the ones with lion statues. You have Geo thermal heating??? Cool!

And it runs on Unobtainium!

 

[Ethan Cooper]

these discussions often remind me of a line from one of my favorite songs

Sometimes you can't please everyone,
Sometimes can't please anyone at all.
So you sew your heart onto your sleeve,
And you wait for the axe to fall
-Bill Mallonee