Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

[PC Greene]

Brings up the bigger question of upgrades path

Brings up the bigger question of upgrades path

Really the bigger question brought up by this is what is the upgrade path from smallest Scarlet to biggest Epic - and what are the incremental steps along the way?

If HDR wasn't in fixed Scarlet but was in non fixed - or in S35 - perhaps that would be OK if there was a significant trade in value for previous body / brains / sensors?

Is RED going to get into selling refurbished units as they're traded in? This could be a fantastic way to control resale value / costs and allow more folks to get into RED cameras for an even less expensive up front cost.

The idea I think - ideally - is to make the cost of upgrading to a body / brain / sensor of the stripped next higher model, just a bit more money that the cost of a fully loaded previous body / brain / sensor.

That way the end user can buy in a the biggest outlay of money - but then never have to spend that much at once every again - incrementally upgrading all the way up.

This would be the most consumer friendly and having been in tech gear consulting for decades, have witnessed this to be a very successful model.

 

[RayFrisby]

I dont understand this argument, the HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™ upgrade/module should not affect the Scarlet release date one bit.

The Scarlet Fixed is almost complete, bar some testing it's close to being released. We've already seen some footage.

Any HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ update should (in theory) be a choice Red will offer those willing to pay the 1,000 or so price tag whether this is in the form of a module or a new board (I for one hope it won't be an extra module, there are enough Red modules already and more planned, keep it simple)
The real question for me is will Red couple HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ with a SSDrive + Module and 1.8" Reader for Scarlet and offer it at a competitive price, as it looks like HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ will need a SSD to be really effective.

Finally as Jeff Kilgroe said earlier a Fixed scarlet with HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ would be an amazing camera with 18 stops of DR it is bound to be the first choice for most Eng, Documentary, Run and gun and Reality based content
(give me one Light Panel and away I go )
Remove the card reader and offer this combined HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™™ SSD + Module and 1.8" Reader for 2500-3000 and you are on to a winner.

My 2 Cents

I agree 100%, I dont understand why everybody assumes that the Scarlet will be delayed, Red can simply choose to develop a HDRx™™™™™™™ version of the various Scarlets.
The existing Scarlet is in testing, we have seen the footage, Whats to stop Red offering a HDRx™™™™™™™ option at a different price ?
All the hard work developing HRDx has been done on the Epic.

The only reason I can think of Jim prompting this question is he would like to include the HDRx™™™™™™™ option in the Scarlet but realizes it will cost a bit more and is testing the water to see if people will go for it.

Personally I think Tills suggestion of offering a HDRx™™™™™™™ version of the Scarlet with a SSDrive a Module and 1.8 reader is right on the money.
Those who want the HDRx™™™™™™™ and can afford it are more likely to go for a complete SSD option that includes SSD + Module and 1.8" Reader.
Do away with the Flash card module on this version and pass on the savings.
Also I agree with Jeff Kilgroe a HDRx™™™™ Fixed Scarlet would be amazing and would clean up in the Eng, Documentary, Concert, Reality and lower budget work, where the extra DR will really blow away the competition.

My 2 Cents

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Really the bigger question brought up by this is what is the upgrade path from smallest Scarlet to biggest Epic - and what are the incremental steps along the way?

If HDR wasn't in fixed Scarlet but was in non fixed - or in S35 - perhaps that would be OK if there was a significant trade in value for previous body / brains / sensors?

Is RED going to get into selling refurbished units as they're traded in? This could be a fantastic way to control resale value / costs and allow more folks to get into RED cameras for an even less expensive up front cost.

The idea I think - ideally - is to make the cost of upgrading to a body / brain / sensor of the stripped next higher model, just a bit more money that the cost of a fully loaded previous body / brain / sensor.

That way the end user can buy in a the biggest outlay of money - but then never have to spend that much at once every again - incrementally upgrading all the way up.

This would be the most consumer friendly and having been in tech gear consulting for decades, have witnessed this to be a very successful model.

I am curious as to why you assume RED will "trade in" old brains. I think the RED ONE situation was a bit unique and my personal opinion is that they are unlikely to offer too much along these lines in the future. The good news about modularity is that you can use all your "peripheral" modules as you upgrade your system by buying a new brain.

 

[Nik Harper]

If it means no delays then i think its a great idea. i'd pay an extra $1000 or so.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

If you are asking, you are proving my point. If YOU don't already know, then you should definitely skip Epic and buy a Scarlet. (Assuming, of course, you have the time to wait!)

I appreciate you taking your time with me, but I still don't think I got a pleasing answer for my question. You're right about me getting a Scarlet, but on the other hand - the Epic price is so much out of reach, why would I need to worry about features I can't afford anyway. And you're probably right about those 80/20 %, but on a budget so far away from Hollywood standards that you can ever come, those differences quickly becomes minor. I ask you, would you (hypothetically speaking of course, none of the cameras are out yet) be able to see the difference(s) between epic and scarlet footage?

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I don't think there would be a difference you would see, but you sure would notice them when trying to get the images(working around scarlet S35's short commings compared to epic). The other thing is scarlet S35 just can't do some of the things the epic can, very high frame rates at 5k, near lossless compression, plus many more features we have yet to hear about I assume.

Then again you could also tell the difference just by looking if the epic were to shoot a scene like well the one we saw in Vegas on HDRx™™ and the S35 didn't have HDRx™™ you would see the difference even in the final grade(I assume).

But as Terry said we know little about the S35 and what we do could all change so basing any serious decisions on this information at this point is not advisable.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Do what you want but don't delay the S35 and no more than 7 000$ for the brain only please.

Voted no.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Do what you want but don't delay the S35 and no more than 7 000$ for the brain only please.

Voted no.

The irony is that we don't have a clue as to when to expect the Scarlet S35, so, at this point, we will never know what things may have cause a delay - or if there ever was a delay! :closedeyes:

 

[Bruce Allen]

It's very dependent on the hardware processing paths. Both in power and flexibility/parallelism.

OK OK. Thank you for the nice answer!

My 2c on Scarlet 2/3rds fixed:
Forget us REDusers for a moment and just do whatever is needed to beat the AF100 in the eyes of the hordes of average DVXuser / DSLR owners looking to move up.

1. if somehow you can go back to 3K for $3K - screw HDRx™ and do that! That was killer.

2. Otherwise, it depends... I fear that many are going to go for an approx $4500 AF100 (MSRP was announced today at $4995) over a $4750 Scarlet 2/3rds so you need to change the game somehow.

Obviously you have a HUGE resolution, compression / RAW and frame rate advantage (1728p @ 120fps vs 1080p @ 60fps).

But - the average low-end guy will decode your footage at half res medium quality unless you get REDCODE decoding on CUDA or some other way of playing back stuff at full quality and 24fps without buying a $3000+ REDROCKET.

I say the advantages of REDCODE and 3K vs the workflow disadvantages almost cancel themselves out for the average user.

So what's left? High FPS? 3D syncability? Smaller / lighter body?

But the AF100 has nicer bokeh, interchangeable lenses and might ship sooner, plus Panasonic doesn't do weird stuff like discontinue its recording media.

My 2c: it comes down to low light. If you think Scarlet 2/3rds fixed will beat the AF100 with a good lens, you don't need HDRx™.

If you think the AF100 beats Scarlet 2/3rds, then yes you need HDRx™ to sweeten the deal.

Again, my favorite option would just be keeping the features as-is and reducing the price - or the accessories price (LCDs, bomb EVF look awesome but expensive for the mass market).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Cedric Akins]

Before I really looked at the footage I voted no. And after viewing the footage and more thought, STILL I VOTE NO. I believe the Scarlet (fixed at least) should remain closer to the stated 3K for 3K. I know it has gone up to roughly $4750; and another $1000 would be close to doubling the original price. I could deal with an additional $250-$500, and even that is a bit of a stretch at the moment. I am not the soccer mom or dad looking to record the kids next game. But I am an independent film maker with a limited budget. At most I can only spend $4750 0n the camera, $1200 on (4) 16GB CF cards, $300 on the module adapter, $200 for the top handle, $1250 for the battery module w/2 batteries, as well as 2 additional batteries and charger how much ever more that might amount too, appx. $1000, hopefully.

I have to be realistic in my budget. I have very little room to move anything in my budget. My original budget was to be $7500 but things changed and I decided my max would be $9500 for the camera package so I still have to vote no, The footage is great but I don't have the clientel for the additional cost. With the amount of clients I get for video work it would take me 2 years or more to have the camera pay for itself.

 

[Danny Lingan]

Very interesting analysis, Bruce! You've given fresh perspective on a couple points, especially media and post. I almost always learn from your posts.

An aside, I'm a former classmate of yours (Advanced Script Analysis, I believe) and wanted to drop an email to reintroduce myself, but your website is down, at least on my MBP with the latest FireFox.

You'd probably recognize me if you saw me.

 

[Scott Crawley]

But the AF100 has better still mode, nicer bokeh, interchangeable lenses and might ship sooner, plus Panasonic doesn't do weird stuff like discontinue its recording media.

There's a funny and curious statement. Funny RE: the media, and curious RE: stills performance. Maybe I've missed a bit because I have not been following 2/3 fixed much, but I have seen very little info at all about Scarlet's still mode, and I certainly haven't seen enough images made on it to make judgements about it's lens characteristics... Curious.

 

[Bruce Allen]

There's a funny and curious statement. Funny RE: the media, and curious RE: stills performance. Maybe I've missed a bit because I have not been following 2/3 fixed much, but I have seen very little info at all about Scarlet's still mode, and I certainly haven't seen enough images made on it to make judgements about it's lens characteristics... Curious.

Actually that was a stupid statement - you caught me before I edited it I'd agree AF100 will probably not have a better stills mode.

What I was actually thinking was that an AF100 user can buy a GH2 or another sub-$1000 4/3rds camera body and shoot stills with the same lenses. Just stick the little thing in the pelican case with your AF100. Plus they get a B-cam.

And Danny, nice to see you! Will PM you. My website will be up by the time Scarlet ships. Deal?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Philip Lipetz]

OK OK. Thank you for the nice answer!

My 2c on Scarlet 2/3rds fixed:
Forget us REDusers for a moment and just do whatever is needed to beat the AF100 in the eyes of the hordes of average DVXuser / DSLR owners looking to move up.

1. if somehow you can go back to 3K for $3K - screw HDRx™™™™™™ and do that! That was killer.

2. Otherwise, it depends... I fear that many are going to go for an approx $4500 AF100 (MSRP was announced today at $4995) over a $4750 Scarlet 2/3rds so you need to change the game somehow.

Obviously you have a HUGE resolution, compression / RAW and frame rate advantage (1728p @ 120fps vs 1080p @ 60fps).

But - the average low-end guy will decode your footage at half res medium quality unless you get REDCODE decoding on CUDA or some other way of playing back stuff at full quality and 24fps without buying a $3000+ REDROCKET.

I say the advantages of REDCODE and 3K vs the workflow disadvantages almost cancel themselves out for the average user.

So what's left? High FPS? 3D syncability? Smaller / lighter body?

But the AF100 has better still mode, nicer bokeh, interchangeable lenses and might ship sooner, plus Panasonic doesn't do weird stuff like discontinue its recording media.

My 2c: it comes down to low light. If you think Scarlet 2/3rds fixed will beat the AF100 with a good lens, you don't need HDRx™™™™™™.

If you think the AF100 beats Scarlet 2/3rds, then yes you need HDRx™™™™™™ to sweeten the deal.

Again, my favorite option would just be keeping the features as-is and reducing the price - or the accessories price (LCDs, bomb EVF look awesome but expensive for the mass market).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

While I have been waiting for Scarlet for a long time, the people in my Indie film club were really put off by a the escalating cost of media ( extremely expensive SSD instead of very expensive cards) and the additional cost of post production equipment when compared to the AF100, so they fear the total cost of ownership is much higher than the base prices, and to many people the AF100 seems to be much more affordable with lower cost media and post production.

For me, the AF100 is not a good documentary cam, so I will wait unless forced to get a XF305 or EX1r, either with Aja Mini.

It is the lower two scarlets that seem to be suddenly growing less popular among my peers, who might be considered the DVXuser crowd. The people waiting for EPIC and S35 have not wavered.

My fear is that the competition will force RED out of the low end, and the advantages of Scarlet for my type of shooting are so many that it would impact my next project in a very negative way,

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I'd pay an extra $1000 for the Scarlet to be released this year:cornut:


Seriously, if it makes us wait longer for the scarlet; then how about making the HDR update like the M-X program with the Red Ones?
Also depends on how much latitude is currently in the Scarlet, and how much it would be with an HDR mode

 

[Thomas Church]

I'd pay an extra $1000 for the Scarlet to be released this year:cornut:

Well said.

The most valuable Scarlet feature would be "you can have it now".

 

[Danny Lingan]

And Danny, nice to see you! Will PM you. My website will be up by the time Scarlet ships. Deal?

Sounds good. Maybe we could have lunch at some point when I'm back in town.

Get that website going on your own schedule, though. That was intended as more of a "hey, you know about the status of your site, right" kinda thing.

 

[T. vd Hoff]

Both the cost and dev time concern me.

I think the footage we've seen from any RED cam, from the early images of Peter Jacksons 'Crossing the Line' on the alpha cams, through all productions on regular Mysterium sensors and the whopping new imagery of the MX sensor, would be a dream come through to get from a camera with a low thousands price tag. We know it's gonna happen, but really, I already liked Scarlet for what she was when she could do just the things worth the $3k she needed to cost.

Of course, there's always more (and arguably better) to be had, but isn't that the brilliance of the modular concept RED wants to deliver? Personally, I'm not crazy about the HDR footage thus far. I wonder if I'd turn it on by default. If my Scarlet didn't have it and I really needed it for something, I'd rent the appropriate brain. Getting a module to do the HDR stuff might be another way to approach it (but probably demand to much changes in the circuitry and connectors).

People have been wondering what's the real difference between the EPIC and Scarlet line up, seeing that a lot of technology trickles down from the flagship model to the 'entry level' one (hooray for that!). Higher speeds, resolution and data rate seemed to be the answer, because the EPIC has more horse power. Let's let it have that advantage. The Scarlet still will be a piece of technological marvel, but just as you can get your Mustang (or whatever) with a range of different engines, so can you get the true sports car of the cinema cameras with the cubic inches that fits both needs and budget.

 

[Leo Sardello]

It would be nice to see some more footage from Scarlet first, but…

Since it requires an alteration to hardware, HDR as a feature will cost more in the long run if it is added later down the line in another generation (to get the feature later requires purchase of a new brain). If they have the ability to add it now and are estimating $1000 to do so, I say do it.

Now if they can finagle a way to do it modularly that is clearly the best all around solution. If they can do it as an optional upgrade of some kind that will make many people happy as well. But if not I say make Scarlet as full featured as possible at launch.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Just found this post from Jim. Apparently HDRx™ will work on RED drives up to an undetermined REDcode. This probably means you won't need to purchase $2,700 worth of SSD equipment for Scarlet in order to use HDRx™.

You can still use RED Drives up to a certain REDCODE... not exactly sure what that is right now.

Jim