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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

  • Total voters
    486
Having not read the entire thread:

I vote NO HDRx on the Scarlet Fixed Lens, and YES to a modular option for the Scarlet S35 for a reasonable (<$800) price adjustment.

But very cool to ask the community, thank you.
 
2/3" already has Epic like performance in other ways compared to the S35 Scarlet, HDR would definitely put it in a class by itself, not just in the price range but compared to any 2/3" camera on the market at any price, much less any other sub $10k entry price camera.
The price hit would mean the basic package price would be more or less the same as an AF100, about $6k.
Potential buyers would have clear compelling choices either way. AF100 with larger sensor for marginally more shallow DOF, 8-bit long GOP HD, perhaps 10 stops DR at best and a full set of standard HD video camera features.
Or Scarlet: a true 16mm film replacement digital cinema camera with uncompromised full resolution 2k 1.85:1 and 2.40:1 wide screen digital cinema capability and as good as film dynamic range at least and the ability to go from base cost functionality to any level of system one might care to build over time.
Maybe leave HDR out of the base fixed model for those who are really price/time sensitive, but add an HDRX fixed version later and include it in the Cinema model to begin with.

Just because some people are obsessed with larger sensor DOF doesn't mean 2/3" is somehow an inferior format deserving of less than the best possible image performance. Red should stay true to their ideal of image quality first as far as I am concerned. This is not just another sub $10k video camera.
 
Would totally pay 1k more for HDR!!!

Would totally pay 1k more for HDR!!!

Lattitude and skew are the big issues for me about the last crop of cameras. No more blown-out windows and skies is more magical than RAW, 3k, framerates. Could finally get rid of the rest of the super 8 in my fridge.
 
I would much rather have a camera, than wait on more features. We have shot for years with out HDR...I mean think about all the guys who shot on anamorphics back when you were doing good to have an ASA200. Put some ND grads in front the lens and then your just created some HDR of your own. I would much rather have a camera in hand now... the RED one has done a miraculous job for us all for years now...
 
J Davis said:
Now who here would want HDRx™ on a scarlet if it meant a further delay?
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Exactly. I would make another thread with a poll to accomodate this "yes but no if" answer, but it might be misinterpreted as me giving RED the finger, which of course I'm not!

I think this poll would be pretty one-sided if the question was reposed as such. I want HDR, but not if we're going to have to wait more than a couple of months at most for it.
 
I voted "yes." I plan to purchase an S35 when they become available. In my opinion, $1,000 in extra cost, give or take, plus a reasonable delay to account for the change in development path (say, 8 weeks) is a fair trade for such an advanced feature. Looks amazing!
 
Mark George said:
I voted "yes." I plan to purchase an S35 when they become available. In my opinion, $1,000 in extra cost, give or take, plus a reasonable delay to account for the change in development path (say, 8 weeks) is a fair trade for such an advanced feature. Looks amazing!
Click to expand...

Given that the S35 delivery date is pretty much a "twinkle in someone's eye" at this point, I doubt that it would even be impacted by this change. I think the more pressing question is whether the Scarlet Fixed, which is scheduled to be the first one out of the box, would be impacted by a change at this late date. I'd love to see this capability in the Fixed, but I fear that it would very probably impact its delivery date, which I'd hate to see. A real conundrum.
 
Grant Goss said:
No HDRx™™™™...Lets just get the camera out, keep the costs down.

K.I.S.S.
Click to expand...

HDRx™™™™ is must have feature for Scarlet that is going to make that smallest RED camera much different from the competition

starts with the newest Panasonic AF100/105, then with any of new Canon/Nikon video DSLR offer until digital cameras like a SI-2K, Alexa Plus, Sony F35 and Genesis.

Scarlet that such a "small dog" should become the "hunter's"* fat duck** "killer".

* The "Hunter" means here a DP, cinematographer, any kind of movie shooter that can be professional or amateur enthusiast.

** The "Fat Duck" means here any HD/2K big and heavy digital camera system like an Alexa Plus, F35, Genesis, etc,...

What about Epic in this case?

Epic is probably designed to get a long love affair with Hollywood...

Scarlet is a camera designed for the rest of that or any other kind of movie making world...
 
I'm thinking that perhaps the fixed scarlet is the only Scarlet with a possibility of HDRx since it can do higher frame rates and it appears the EPIC can roughly do half it's highest frame rate in HDRx. If the Scarlet S35 can only do 30 fps then it might only be capable of 15fps HDRx. And if they do enable it with higher frame rates, well, they might as well just call it an EPIC.
 
If it would delay Scarlet then NO, but it would be a great option to have a module that can do it down the road. Also, perhaps a Scarlet that comes with HDR and one that doesn't?
 
I'm in! Optional module, upgraded brain, or only available at original purchase, doesn't matter. And I've waited this long for Scarlet, I'm in even if it delays everything a little longer(!)

But please, not too much longer :-)
 
As we've been waiting on the Scarlet for so long now, I don't see the problem of waiting a few more months for this feature. The proof is in the pudding and the Epic footage from yesterday should be a pretty good reason to want this in. At the end of the day, if it could be added as part of a module, then this would probably be the best approach.
 
I think Scarlet (fixed) is perfectly priced for the market right now - making it more expensive means loosing a lot of potential buyers. How this would be with the modular Scarlets, I don't know. Maybe there it wouldn't matter to be more expensive for this mode ....
 
Matt Steinauer said:
I'm thinking that perhaps the fixed scarlet is the only Scarlet with a possibility of HDRx™™™™ since it can do higher frame rates and it appears the EPIC can roughly do half it's highest frame rate in HDRx™™™™. If the Scarlet S35 can only do 30 fps then it might only be capable of 15fps HDRx™™™™. And if they do enable it with higher frame rates, well, they might as well just call it an EPIC.
Click to expand...

If this is true then a software only HDR would basically wipe out fixed's and the 2/3's brain's competition. Is there a substantial difference in the potential for software only HDR upgrade to the 2/3 fixed and low end Scarlet brain, and S35?
 
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Please just ship it. The pain of using horrid cameras with terrible compression is far worse than not having HDRx. If you release scarlet, then a few months later re-release with HDRx, I think that would make everyone happy.

Your loyal [would-be] customers would like to give you their money now RED.
 
Scott Crawley said:
A vote for withholding features for the purpose of protecting the price of a more expensive product line? Can you say Stockholm Syndrome? Have we really been so abused that we would now encourage Red to do the exact thing that we railed against in the beginning? I understand why a business would consider such tactics, but for a consumer to subscribe to such dogma is backward thinking IMHO... No offense intended.
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No offense taken. It's not that I'm rallying for it. As I said in my post, if they put it in Scarlet then I'll simply get rid of the Epic and opt for the cheaper Scarlet instead and have more money in my pocket. The problem is that I think most other people will too, which ultimately undermines Epic as a product and it's future updates.

If in a years time Red aren't selling a single Epic but are selling 1000 Scarlets each month where do you think their ultimate concern for updates and satisfying their current and future customer base will lie? Where will the majority of their R&D go? So even though they have a camera with far more power and possibility the limitations will be placed on it by the fact that so few, by comparison, own it or will want to own it. Having very little separation between products in a product line will actually become a very negative thing for Red and damage Epic as a product in my opinion.

At the end of the day why have a product line at all if the cheaper products don't have limitations to their more expensive counterparts? Having better and more features in a more expensive camera is a natural thing in every instance of a product line, not a negative thing as you portray it. Otherwise just dump either the Scarlet S35 or the Epic S35 and just have one or the other for $10k and do away with the upgrade program.

Paul
 
PaulClements said:
No offense taken. It's not that I'm rallying for it. As I said in my post, if they put it in Scarlet then I'll simply get rid of the Epic and opt for the cheaper Scarlet instead and have more money in my pocket. The problem is that I think most other people will too, which ultimately undermines Epic as a product and it's future updates.

If in a years time Red aren't selling a single Epic but are selling 1000 Scarlets each month where do you think their ultimate concern for updates and satisfying their current and future customer base will lie? Where will the majority of their R&D go? So even though they have a camera with far more power and possibility the limitations will be placed on it by the fact that so few, by comparison, own it or will want to own it. Having very little separation between products in a product line will actually become a very negative thing for Red and damage Epic as a product in my opinion.

At the end of the day why have a product line at all if the cheaper products don't have limitations to their more expensive counterparts? Having better and more features in a more expensive camera is a natural thing in every instance of a product line, not a negative thing as you portray it. Otherwise just dump either the Scarlet S35 or the Epic S35 and just have one or the other for $10k and do away with the upgrade program.

Paul
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But if HDR were part of the 2/3 cams only, due to software-brain limitations allowing only smaller sensors to be converted without new hardware, then there would still be differentiation between S35 and Epic. If you can do it for the 2/3 sensors software then Red will own the huge under $10k cam market.
 
PaulClements said:
No offense taken. It's not that I'm rallying for it. As I said in my post, if they put it in Scarlet then I'll simply get rid of the Epic and opt for the cheaper Scarlet instead and have more money in my pocket. The problem is that I think most other people will too, which ultimately undermines Epic as a product and it's future updates.

If in a years time Red aren't selling a single Epic but are selling 1000 Scarlets each month where do you think their ultimate concern for updates and satisfying their current and future customer base will lie? Where will the majority of their R&D go? So even though they have a camera with far more power and possibility the limitations will be placed on it by the fact that so few, by comparison, own it or will want to own it. Having very little separation between products in a product line will actually become a very negative thing for Red and damage Epic as a product in my opinion.

At the end of the day why have a product line at all if the cheaper products don't have limitations to their more expensive counterparts? Having better and more features in a more expensive camera is a natural thing in every instance of a product line, not a negative thing as you portray it. Otherwise just dump either the Scarlet S35 or the Epic S35 and just have one or the other for $10k and do away with the upgrade program.

Paul
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I understand and respect that.

I don't consider designing two product lines with clear differences a negative thing. It only makes sense. As in this case... The additional features cost more money to implement so the product naturally costs more. That premium price tag becomes a negative when there is a perception of artifice.

When a company develops their flagship product and all of the features that come with it, they set a price. The perception, be it right or wrong, is that the cost of that product is set by a fairly simple equation: the cost of parts, labor, transportation, storage and R&D plus a reasonable profit= the price.

Therefore, when a second product line comes along with the same physical capabilities, but built for a larger market, there is an expectation that those features will be included sans premium price tag. The perception is that the cost of R&D of those features has already been recovered in the sale of the premium product, and that the economy of scale that comes with the mass market device should also reduce the cost of adding said features. If additional parts are required to implement the features, then additional cost is more tenable.

It's really about the buying and selling of ideas. People hate paying for them. They have no interest in paying for intellectual property. They are happy to pay for materials and they place some value in a hard day's work so they allow a little for the cost of labor, but the perception seems to be that ideas cost nothing or next to nothing to produce, so they should cost next to nothing. The larger the market, the less they are willing to pay for an idea. People don't necessarily hate to see anyone get rich for being clever, they just don't want to be the ones paying the bill.
 
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