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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

  • Total voters
    486
It would depend on how much dynamic range is currently in the 2/3"? It'll obviously be very good with the M-X sensor but not as good as the Epic. If it's around 11-12 stops I'm perfectly fine with that. (Hint, hint can we know?)

Also would that mean that we'd already have to wait longer? I'd say yes to the s35 scarlet just because we know it won't be released for a while

If it was in the form of a module that would be great, but I'd much rather Red just release the epic/scarlets already. And probably do something like the current M-X program if you want to send it in for the HDR mode
 
Scott Crawley said:
I understand and respect that.

I don't consider designing two product lines with clear differences a negative thing. It only makes sense. As in this case... The additional features cost more money to implement so the product naturally costs more. That premium price tag becomes a negative when there is a perception of artifice.

When a company develops their flagship product and all of the features that come with it, they set a price. The perception, be it right or wrong, is that the cost of that product is set by a fairly simple equation: the cost of parts, labor, transportation, storage and R&D plus a reasonable profit= the price.

Therefore, when a second product line comes along with the same physical capabilities, but built for a larger market, there is an expectation that those features will be included sans premium price tag. The perception is that the cost of R&D of those features has already been recovered in the sale of the premium product, and that the economy of scale that comes with the mass market device should also reduce the cost of adding said features. If additional parts are required to implement the features, then additional cost is more tenable.

It's really about the buying and selling of ideas. People hate paying for them. They have no interest in paying for intellectual property. They are happy to pay for materials and they place some value in a hard day's work so they allow a little for the cost of labor, but the perception seems to be that ideas cost nothing or next to nothing to produce, so they should cost next to nothing. The larger the market, the less they are willing to pay for an idea. People don't necessarily hate to see anyone get rich for being clever, they just don't want to be the ones paying the bill.
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All well and good but the problem is that Red are openly negating such a perception by saying that Scarlet will be this and that before Epic has even been released. Scarlet isn't being released as a second cheaper product to supersede at a later date, it's being released and built in tandem as part of the same product line. Just with a later shipping date most likely due to the logistics of manufacturing the Epic in the states and the Scarlet abroad.

Prospective Epic owners already know that an Epic purchase could already be funding the R&D of the scarlet with say 95% of the same features. So that knowledge leaves each one with a choice. Do I dump buying the Epic or sell it on in order to get a Scarlet which I already know is capable of most of the things I want from the camera or do I hope that at some point Red will apply features only for their flagship product that will differentiate my investment in what is going to become an even more saturated market.

The irony is that Red are creating their own competition for their own product which serves only to frustrate their prospective Epic customer base and lessen the intrinsic value of their flagship product.

Paul
 
My €0,02
I am struggling on hand HDRx™ is amazing and very useful.
However the scarlet fixed was kinda 3k for $3k and for those buyers $6k is a lot. The "recent" price is probably for a lot of the serious soccer mom's still possible adding another $1000 is pushing it to far. Now for ppl making(or trying to make) money with the camera a $1000 is nothing for this feature and if it is I would seriously reconsider your business.(sorry for sounding harsh but this is such a potential money/ass saver)
Then for fixed versus 2/3 brain and s35 brain. For the last 2 I think it is a no brainer since on the amount needed to spend a $1000 hurts but you won't loose a client. For the fixed see above.

Now considering red designs cameras with certain features in mind and that costs a certain amount of money and if they think of a new feature they just add it if it is possible. So it is safe to say that for the 2/3 scarlet it would cost 1000$ to add the HDRx™ and considering all 6k for a fixed might be double first aim but still very affordable.

Last consideration even though this was not mentioned by red so might not be an issue. Time frame: if adding the boards would cause more then 3 to 6 months delay. I'd say start thinking about a version 2.0 , even though I'd love a module to add for HDRx™ I somehow do not believe that is feasible. Only downside for version 2.0 is that you need to make more camera models which is quite a sore business wise because red seems to care about there customers. Remember that this is not like all those other camera companies that there is no fw updates for existing stuff etc etc.

Really to bad the 2/3 has not enough umpf.... I kinda expected it for the scarlet s35. Would hdrx be at reduced 24fps1080p be possible for the current price point/hardware? if so I think you got that covered and that here is just the difference between an epic and the scarlet, the umpf, not an artificial differentiation at all.
 
There will be other significant differences, i.e Scarlet 12 bit vs Epic 16 bit capture. Higher Redcode/lower compression rates for Epic. Higher frame rates too. Probably a few other differences not mentioned yet.
For me HDRx in the 2/3" Cinema is absolutely something I would pay the extra bucks for.
 
David Rasberry said:
There will be other significant differences, i.e Scarlet 12 bit vs Epic 16 bit capture. Higher Redcode/lower compression rates for Epic. Higher frame rates too. Probably a few other differences not mentioned yet.
For me HDRx™ in the 2/3" Cinema is absolutely something I would pay the extra bucks for.
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Maybe, but it'll be interesting to see if anyone can really observe a difference between either when they shoot the same thing at normal frame rates. Technically it may have such differences but try showing them side by side to a producer and explain why they should pay three times as much too use Epic.

Paul
 
PaulClements said:
Maybe, but it'll be interesting to see if anyone can really observe a difference between either when they shoot the same thing at normal frame rates. Technically it may have such differences but try showing them side by side to a producer and explain why they should pay three times as much too use Epic.

Paul
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I thought that was pretty much the idea all along. More economical Scarlet version with more limited frame and data rates, but no compromise in basic image quality for most common shooting needs like HD production and low budget features. Epic for the most demanding apps like VFX plates, motion capture, slow motion and high end features.
By your argument it makes more sense not to include HDRx in the S35 version. But 2/3" could truly benefit greatly from it and it is a different format market altogether.
 
Well Paul,

I have confidence in Jim's wisdom and business sense, so I am comfortable presuming two things: 1. He is too smart to let Scarlet kill the Epic. 2. Jim's a smart competitor. If he has an ace showing on the table, It is a fairly safe bet that there is a face card in his hand. We are only aware of some of Epic's features.

Epic is an S35 processing magnum to the 2/3 Scarlet's derringer, yet many are poised to plunge a dagger into Scarlet out of fear of it's potential before either is even released.

I have no real expectation that Epic's target audience is going to forego Epic in favor of little Scarlet fixed. It all seems rather silly to me.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Given that the S35 delivery date is pretty much a "twinkle in someone's eye" at this point, I doubt that it would even be impacted by this change. I think the more pressing question is whether the Scarlet Fixed, which is scheduled to be the first one out of the box, would be impacted by a change at this late date. I'd love to see this capability in the Fixed, but I fear that it would very probably impact its delivery date, which I'd hate to see. A real conundrum.
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I think you're probably right, Terry, which is actually why I mentioned it. I wanted to vote, but I also wanted the RED team to know my vote was more for S35 capabilities than 2/3 Fixed. (If I was waiting for the Fixed, I really don't know how I would've voted. Very difficult!)

And given the fact that the Scarlet Fixed is nearly finished (I do believe that), you're looking at several engineering problems to accommodate the functionality, from logically integrating the new chip into the already-baked hardware/software ecosystem, to physical concerns like heat dissipation and, most obviously, finding a way to fit the chip (or board!) into a nearly-complete, and very compact, product. I'm not an engineer, so this is my "best-guess" speculation as to the challenges.

The good news is the ASIC itself exists, so the hardest part is done.
 
Anyone who believes there is little difference between a Scarlet and an Epic should definitely buy the Scarlet since you clearly haven't correctly assessed the capabilities of the Epic and they probably exceed your needs. Just for the record, I think that idea is rather absurd. And, any potential Scarlet buyer who is giddy because they think they are really just getting Epic capabilities for a better price, is equally mistaken.
 
I say add the software option but not the hardware in-camera option.

2/3rds Scarlet... can already do 120fps. So adding the software HDRx™ mode shouldn't be tooo hard (?)

larger-format Scarlets... can't do HDRx™ easily because they can't do full-sensor 48fps?
Hmm, if they could shoot 48fps with a slight window it'd be amazing and well worth the extra cost.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
2/3rds Scarlet... can already do 120fps. So adding the software HDRx™™ mode shouldn't be tooo hard (?)
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It's very dependent on the hardware processing paths. Both in power and flexibility/parallelism.
 
Looks like im "defeated". I see more persons is ready to wait for the hdr upgrade. I can say that Im not crying. Im happy either way! Just feels we could almost taste the scarlet now... Any tips for a videograf renting a red one for the first time? Like get this book, and this dvd. I would like it to be littel future proof also. Is "red 101" dvd the way to go maby?
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Anyone who believes there is little difference between a Scarlet and an Epic should definitely buy the Scarlet since you clearly haven't correctly assessed the capabilities of the Epic and they probably exceed your needs. Just for the record, I think that idea is rather absurd. And, any potential Scarlet buyer who is giddy because they think they are really just getting Epic capabilities for a better price, is equally mistaken.
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Could you describe what the main difference is (Scarlet S35 vs. Epic S35)?
 
Terry,

I have to disagree with you a little. Producers don't care about tech. 99% of what is shot is 24p 180 degree shutter. For most producers 1080P is plenty of resolution, even for a feature. Look at everyone drooling over the Alexa. Scarlet will be a 3K raw camera than shoot 120fps and if they add HDR. Scarlet has potential to be better than every high end camera out. F35, Alexa, Viper, Red One..... Why should a producer pay for an Epic when all they need is 24p 180 degree shutter. Just rent an Epic on the special days you need it and get Scarlets for less than a single day with an F35, pretty much free.

In some markets, the low cost of Red destroyed their rental value. In Texas I can get a Red with owner operator and indie kit (Nikon glass, redrock, etc) for less than I can rent an HVX for the day. There will be so many Scarlets in the world, they will come for free with operator.

Just my thoughts.


Dusty
 
Dustin Cross said:
Terry,

I have to disagree with you a little. Producers don't care about tech. 99% of what is shot is 24p 180 degree shutter. For most producers 1080P is plenty of resolution, even for a feature. Look at everyone drooling over the Alexa. Scarlet will be a 3K raw camera than shoot 120fps and if they add HDR. Scarlet has potential to be better than every high end camera out. F35, Alexa, Viper, Red One..... Why should a producer pay for an Epic when all they need is 24p 180 degree shutter. Just rent an Epic on the special days you need it and get Scarlets for less than a single day with an F35, pretty much free.

In some markets, the low cost of Red destroyed their rental value. In Texas I can get a Red with owner operator and indie kit (Nikon glass, redrock, etc) for less than I can rent an HVX for the day. There will be so many Scarlets in the world, they will come for free with operator.

Just my thoughts.


Dusty
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compression ratio is the main difference besides high speed.(i am comparing to scarlet s35)
but redcode is so good at the current ratio already.
out of my head:
picture overlay
guess: getting new builds 1st.
 
I think there's a need for an inexpensive video camera solution that doesn't suck, and HDR isn't a critical part of Scarlet's not sucking.

Having it as an upgradable option at time of purchase, etc., even if it costs $1500 or $2000 more instead, would be a no brainer to me, but sacrificing the idea that any film student or serious hobbyest can save up and get her hands on her own 16mm-quality video camera and go crazy with it is to me a big shame, and every $1000 that gets added to the price tag does some serious damage to that vision.

If that's not anyone's vision in the first place, then you can certainly feel free to discount my opinion/vote.
 
Must have! But can be expansion option?

Must have! But can be expansion option?

So a big part of the beauty of the RED line is it's modularity and expandability.

This is what sold me on Digidesign (now Avid) Protools in my previous / alternate life as a record producer. In the late 80's / early 90's I decided to bet my career on their equipment knowing I could buy into a system at a rate I could afford and then expand all the way up to the big boy systems - which I did successfully and ended up on the cover of that industries best mags years later.

While no one wants to wait any longer than necessary for the Scarlet...HDR and what it would seem to offer budding film makers is HUGE.

In fact it's arguable that those who CAN'T afford Epic need HDR more because they also probably cant afford lots of lighting either...

So can it be an upgrade? If RED hasn't yet - figuring out a way to incrementally make more processing power (between brain upgrades) possible, it might just be another way to offer yet more flexibility to it's customers.

my 2 cents

>>>and YES - 1K seems very reasonable for HDR...but again, ideally as an expansion option
 
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Jesper Sichlau said:
Could you describe what the main difference is (Scarlet S35 vs. Epic S35)?
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If you are asking, you are proving my point. If YOU don't already know, then you should definitely skip Epic and buy a Scarlet. (Assuming, of course, you have the time to wait!)

Case in point - it is highly unlikely I will be an Epic buyer in the foreseeable future. I can't justify it financially nor am I likely to NEED the extreme high level of capabilities. I am also extremely unlikely to shoot a Hollywood budget type feature in my lifetime. So, Epic is, for me, overkill and unaffordable. However, if I WAS shooting big budget projects and the money was there to buy/rent the best, I would have a hard time justifying NOT going the Epic route. As always, it is an individual decision but I am confident that most of those people who are actually making this decision (in real life - not conjecturing here on the forum), are likely to choose the right tool for their needs. For the most part, these are sophisticated professionals, they will do their homework and they are likely to make the right decision.

On the flip side, Jim is both a sophisticated cinematographer and a sophisticated businessman. I'll leave it to him to judge, in the final analysis, whether he will "cannibalize" Epic sales by making Scarlet "too good." He knows a whole lot more about all this RED stuff than the rest of us and, at this point, he doesn't seem to be too worried about it.

One last thought - Let's keep in mind that neither camera is complete yet and, as far as i know, there is NO working prototype of an S35 Scarlet. So, all we can really compare is a set of hypothetical features. Epic is (almost) here now, Scarlet S35 is barely on the horizon. If you are an Epic buyer who is thinking of waiting for the release of the S35 Scarlet, then I would contend that you should do just that since, obviously, your real need for a highly capable camera like Epic is either not pressing in terms of schedule, or completely arbitrary in terms of your real needs.

Yes - I think they are different. And I, as well as anyone else, could drag myself through this forum and list out all the subtle and not-so-subtle differences based on what we have heard. That isn't my point as much as the idea that when Epic and Scarlet S35 are both in the market, we will all be able to see that there is a difference. You can believe me or not - it's your $20K or so. :smiley:

EDIT: Maybe you should think of this as the 80/20 rule. Perhaps Scarlet S35 will deliver 80% of the "bang" of Epic for 20% of the price but it is probably that last 20% of features and capability that the really high end users can't do without. Those are the people who are the market for Epic - and they will buy!
 
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