Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

[Jim Retar]

Although I share your sentiments on the 2/3" format... I think the majority of potential Scarlet 2/3" buyers would be doing so because it is the cheapest way to get onto the RED ladder.

More delays and more big sensor launches from other companies will have a major impact on scarlet sales... the DSLR craze has already taken a bite and will likely continue with 2nd generation launches in late 2010/early 2011.

I can't wait for ever myself, maybe 9 more months max.

Btw - If you are talking about the $40k+ broadcast cameras... i'm not sure it is fair to bring price into it too much, as to kit out a Scarlet ready for very fast broadcast turnaround would cost a fair chunk too.

 

[David Rasberry]

Although I share your sentiments on the 2/3" format... I think the majority of potential Scarlet 2/3" buyers would be doing so because it is the cheapest way to get onto the RED ladder.

More delays and more big sensor launches from other companies will have a major impact on scarlet sales... the DSLR craze has already taken a bite and will likely continue with 2nd generation launches in late 2010/early 2011.

I can't wait for ever myself, maybe 9 more months max.

Btw - If you are talking about the $40k+ broadcast cameras... i'm not sure it is fair to bring price into it too much, as to kit out a Scarlet ready for very fast broadcast turnaround would cost a fair chunk too.

True, if you equip Scarlet to match the operating features of say a Sony PMW350, or even an AF100 for that matter, then it prices out around $15-20k.
If you strip a fixed version down to the bare minimum DSLR style configuration with the small LCD and CF reader then it will be priced like an AF100, Canon XF300, Sony EX1. By the time you add media and enough batteries for at least 3-4 hours of shooting time, you will be more like in the $8k range, even without the HDR increase. It is already significantly up market from the DSLR crowd anyway. You will pay a premium for true digital cinema vs long GOP HD video performance. People will make choices based on their budgets and what they value most.

 

[Danny Lingan]

Although I share your sentiments on the 2/3" format... I think the majority of potential Scarlet 2/3" buyers would be doing so because it is the cheapest way to get onto the RED ladder.

That's probably true for most individuals, but think about groups that buy in multiple quantities like professionals, rental houses, militaries and institutions world-wide that already have decades long investments in 16mm cine glass and accessories.

My hypothesis: The extra amount for the HDR would be seen as an investment that not only extends the value of their assets for years, but also increases rentals by having the camera with the now-must-have feature.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Implementing HDR in Scarlet and making it more expensive would be the final step of removing Scarlet from the low budget segment.

I wouldn't blame RED for this, it's a conscious market decision, better than to have a product that could have been much more.

I would probably skip Scarlet for the moment but that's just me.

 

[David Rasberry]

Implementing HDR in Scarlet and making it more expensive would be the final step of removing Scarlet from the low budget segment.

I wouldn't blame RED for this, it's a conscious market decision, better than to have a product that could have been much more.

I would probably skip Scarlet for the moment but that's just me.

I support keeping an entry level version of the fixed Scarlet at as low a price as possible for this market, but realistically it would still fall with the higher priced HD video cameras in the under $10k range.
By some indications, many would be happy with reduced capabilities and features to hit a lower price. I would hate to see Scarlet crippled for value pricing to a market that may not really appreciate it and would wind up buying a DSLR anyway.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Implementing HDR in Scarlet and making it more expensive would be the final step of removing Scarlet from the low budget segment.

Really? A $1000 increment would change it from "low budget" to...? Personally, I don't think of it as low budget any more than I think of an EX-1 or something similar. Of course, it IS low budget compared to an Epic or a RED ONE MX but everything is relative, isn't it? I just don't see how the increment takes it out of the category it was already in the middle of. And that deosn't really take into account the superiority of its other features.

I would probably skip Scarlet for the moment but that's just me.

And buy what? What is even "out there" that can compete? People talk abut the AF-100 but, to me, there are way too many compromises to make it competitive. And let's not get started again on the vDSLR thing. :biggrin5:

 

[Jim Retar]

And buy what? What is even "out there" that can compete? People talk abut the AF-100 but, to me, there are way too many compromises to make it competitive.

The words "to me" stand out in that sentence.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The words "to me" stand out in that sentence.

Not sure what traction you are trying to make out of that. Isn't it true that everyone has their own needs and priorities in a camera? I am not trying to assume that others aren't perfectly happy with h.264 compression or line-skipping or whatever. I have said all along that I think RAW is a deal changer and pretty much anything that can't deliver it is, TO ME, not going to cut it. You are welcome to have your own set of priorities and, I assume, you do.

 

[Tim Hole]

And buy what? What is even "out there" that can compete? People talk abut the AF-100 but, to me, there are way too many compromises to make it competitive. And let's not get started again on the vDSLR thing. :biggrin5:

I can't speak for Pietro but I do know that he has to contend with 50% tax bringing equip in from US to Brazil, and that for some it might not be a matter of 'what else is out there' its just that amount tips it over into the just out price range for the time being, especially considering all the other accessories you would want to buy to make it production worthy. $5750 is a fair bit more money than $3000.

I know a lot has changed over the past few years and I am glad for it, obviously. But when people got onboard thats where it stood. This is where we are. I want a fixed and interchangeable, which to me is a perfect combo so I'm up for it because I do see the longer term benefits, but it should also be noted that really unless you have pressing engagements people don't have to buy the camera on day one. Wait two months and if you haven't raised the money for the extra. Maybe you are pushing the boat out a bit too much anyway.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Really? A $1000 increment would change it from "low budget" to...?

Maybe not as far as market segment/positioning, but for me it would change it from "can baaaaaaaaaaaaaarely afford" to "can't afford." Though that may happen anyway with the manufacturer shake-up.

Any price increase is going to cost you some customers, the question is how many and is that too many? $3750 or $5750 still sounds super cheap to people who can afford an Epic, but those aren't the people buying it. Look at it in terms of percentage. 36% increase for Interchangeable, 21% for Fixed. That's not insignificant.

 

[David Rasberry]

My estimated budget for an interchangeable package is more like $10k than $5k at this point anyway, more in EX3 territory. But I do understand budget constraints, I've wanted a good 2/3" class camera since Betacam came out, but could never quite make the $30k+ investment typical of them.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I am not arguing that there are never budget constraints. As others have duly noted, the vast majority of people and businesses have them. But people keep coming back to this 3K for $3K thing and that argument holds no water. There were few, if any specifics, around what you could get for $3K. And there weren't any promises, deposits taken, etc. etc. As we know, the current price that has been suggested for the interchangeable is $2750 which is, of course, LESS THAN $3K. Scarlet specs have changed and the price has changed. Until it actually ships, RED has always warned us that change was likely. To be honest, I will be a little surprised if the $4750 price of the Fixed "package" holds - just my opinion.

So, we are NOT talking about $3K vs. $5750. If the price does go up (with HDRx™™ or without), we will be comparing $4750 and $5750 on the Scarlet Fixed. Yes, that increase is a significant percentage of the base package but that percentage is much lower if you compare it to the "real" base cost of shooting with a Scarlet 2/3" fixed. That would have to include media, digital cinema accessories, and all the computer power and storgae necessary to deal with R3D post (since I doubt that the people using it for personal projects are going to go to a post house for editing). So, it will cost north of $10K to actually work with a Scarlet and the potential increase of $1K is really only 10% or less. And, of course, we are ALL just conjecturing about this anyway since, everything IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

Like a lot of people here, I can't afford an Epic; Scarlet is my "sweet spot.". That said, if the base Scarlet package were to double in price to $9500, it still wouldn't have a real competitor in the marketplace, IMO, and would be still worthy of consideration.. But, at that price, I might not be able to afford it either and I would have to compromise some of the features I really want and buy something else. That is the unfortunate truth about any product we want in any market. No company owes it to us to sell us a product at a loss just so it can be affordable to more people. Yes, you can argue that more units sold might make the breakeven price to RED lower but that is a judgment that only RED has enough information to consider.

And a PS: Just to be clear, I haven't even thought for two seconds about anything past the Fixed because I think it will be awhile (months?) before we get to consider those. And, if I recall, Jim ruminated in a post some time ago about the possibility that the S35 and FF35 Scarlets might not even be called "Scarlet."

 

[Tim Hole]

I'm not technically bringing up the $3K for 3K point either. The point I am making is that, that was when a lot of Scarlet people got on-board. Then some dropped off along the way and others hung on hoping the price wasn't gonna go up anymore, knowing that the line was getting closer.

The subject to change statement is both a blessing and a curse. People very rarely experience this kind of development openness from companies, and these are the side effect of it.

Like I said i'm set either way so the price doesn't affect me too much.

I am still surprised though at the lack of independent co-operatives that there are. three or four independents who make films together joining together to buy a production ready kit is a far more affordable way of doing things.

 

[PatrickW]

Given lots of talk on a pretty much 50/50 split there are lots of options. Here is a list of the important ones imo.

Red said things will always change. And now we have the choice (sort of, more like an opinion, but you have the choice of forming you opinion which will influence Red) to see what we get in Scarlet. Given that things change, we have the choice of taking a Scarlet as it was for the price or as it could be (with HDR) for a new price. For some this change could be great, for others it could spell disaster.

The two main points:
Add HDR for $X more (Current estimate is X = $1000)
Do Not Add HDR and maintain current price

If there is no option to add this sort of upgrade via module:
Can it be upgraded in a shop or via DIY process LATER and for how much?
Can the limitation of no modules that require more bandwidth(is this the bottleneck?) be circumvented by a "high speed add on"(eg like plugging a mini card into the brain akin to plugging a red rocket into a mac pro for more power)?

If Red sells an HDR version and a low price sans HDR version of the Scarlette:
Would the price increase(currently $1000) for 50% of the Scarlets with HDR go up?
Would the price for the base model go up as well?

Which products in the Scarlet lineup does this apply to?
Adding $1000 to $2750(2/3) and $7000(s35) is abit different.

What sort of delay will the changes entail?

Can a limited HDR be implemented in the current build without price increase?
Can a limited version of HDR be implemented? (ie HDR for 30fps max)

 

[Jacob T. Ritley]

I've not read this entire thread, but here's MHO:

As long as it doesn't delay the S35's release much longer, give it HDRx™. This is a revolutionary feature for which I have no problem paying a little extra. Yes, my budget is already quite tight, but I know it's going to be worth it. I'll sell some furniture if I have to.

I totally understand that people want to keep the 2/3'' cameras' prices to a minimum, so let's keep it to a minimum and just release it as soon as possible. It's still going to be a kick ass camera without HDRx™.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I've not read this entire thread, but here's MHO:

As long as it doesn't delay the S35's release much longer, give it HDRx™™™. This is a revolutionary feature for which I have no problem paying a little extra. Yes, my budget is already quite tight, but I know it's going to be worth it. I'll sell some furniture if I have to.

I totally understand that people want to keep the 2/3'' cameras' prices to a minimum, so let's keep it to a minimum and just release it as soon as possible. It's still going to be a kick ass camera without HDRx™™™.

I doubt you will ever know for sure whether HDRx™ did or didn't delay the S35, either way. :laugh:

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Really? A $1000 increment would change it from "low budget" to...? Personally, I don't think of it as low budget any more than I think of an EX-1 or something similar. Of course, it IS low budget compared to an Epic or a RED ONE MX but everything is relative, isn't it? I just don't see how the increment takes it out of the category it was already in the middle of. And that deosn't really take into account the superiority of its other features.

And buy what? What is even "out there" that can compete? People talk abut the AF-100 but, to me, there are way too many compromises to make it competitive. And let's not get started again on the vDSLR thing. :biggrin5:

Terry... Keep in mind that it wouldn't be the first price increase. Scarlet was initally marketed with the slogan "3K for $3K", things changed, those potential buyers are long gone.

First price increase brought kit up to $4750, implementing HDRx would make it $5750.

$2750 bucks covers a great tripod and a basic light kit. Things that a low-budget person should invest in even more than the camera itself.

And what compromises do you see in the AF-100 aside from the codec?

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Terry... Keep in mind that it wouldn't be the first price increase. Scarlet was initally marketed with the slogan "3K for $3K", things changed, those potential buyers are long gone.

First price increase brought kit up to $4750, implementing HDRx™™ would make it $5750.

$2750 bucks covers a great tripod and a basic light kit. Things that a low-budget person should invest in even more than the camera itself.

And what compromises do you see in the AF-100 aside from the codec?

3k for 3k was for a different camera altogether, a concept camera if you will so mentioning it when talking about the new line up does not really make sense.

Now I can see how people may be confused but that camera never existed and it never will, plain and simple.

I have to agree with Terry I find it unusual people are complaining about a product being out of their market. I can't really understand it if you can't afford the camera then that's it buy a cheaper camera and work until you can afford it.

I think looking at this from a financial perspective is very short sighted on the side of the consumer. HDRx™ for another 1k, in a camera system under 10k seems like an amazing deal to me.

To each his own but as I look at it now HDR is going to be a huge part of Red camera's and to take it out of the scarlets would make them.... well not really true Red cameras.

I loved red because it was about making no compromise high quality digital cinema cameras that people in all levels of the industry could afford. I just hope that scarlet remains along that path (....HDR).

have a good one and keep on dreaming

 

[Danny Lingan]

Very well said, Stephen Matthews.

3k for 3k was for a different camera altogether, a concept camera if you will so mentioning it when talking about the new line up does not really make sense.

Now I can see how people may be confused but that camera never existed and it never will, plain and simple.

Maybe we should also be complaining that the 2/3 fixed [not sure about the other bodies] won't fit in a pocket.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Personally, I would like something besides higher frame rates to justify the added expense that I'm ponying up for EPIC...the specs are getting more similar all the time, and I find myself second-guessing why I am spending large chunk of change on the EPIC upgrade, if the shades of difference between the camera sets grow narrower each day. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

However, I very much want to see the RED team succeed, and throwing everything they have at their best possible price point will ensure that success. So I vote yes, as a bet on RED's future success.