Expectations...

[Ryan Farnes]

I agree with Chevy Chase. Everyone is right.

:devil:

The more I read, the more I agreed with both sides. Everyone has good points. However, I think I'm going with the 3K 2/3" crowd at this point. Jim really got the juices flowing, but he tends to do so. I'm gonna go with over-hype on Nov. 3 and expect a 3K 2/3" camera. (i suppose the caveat is that something better, if that is possible, might come out) But for now, 2/3" 3K would be glorious.

I think the big change is that there are not separate fixed and interchangeable models. Just one model that is interchangeable with an 8x electronic lens that you can get separately. I suspect the disruption from Japan has delayed it and Scarlet will ship without it, but you can order it and take delivery early 2012 or something.

All this other stuff about Alchemy has me thinking they may sell the 3K uprezzing to 4K is adequate.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Measure us against our competitors... not your fantasies.

Jim

Some things to mull over. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

The man himself asked us to measure RED against its competitors. So, I figure that measurement depends on two things:

1) Which companies see themselves as RED competitors and

2) perhaps more importantly, who RED sees as its competitors

[NOTE: Please fight the urge to engage in "RED has no competition" type ass kissing, thank you very much]

People on this forum can't even agree on who the target market for Scarlet is. If you think, as I do, it's primary (but not only) focus is the indie cinema crowd, then you only have a few existing cameras to compare it to, plus whatever Canon announces on November 3.

In a realistic sense, this represents a fairly wide price range from about $6.5K to about $17K. For non-cinema uses, I don't know what the competition is. Someone is going to have to help me out there.

With that wide a gap, I think it's plausible that Scarlet will cover a range, as it did when first announced. I know some of you are still carrying a torch for Epic-S proper and I contend you'll get it with a different moniker. We shall see...

Anyway, I digress. I actually have a question.

Is there any reason why RED couldn't make a 3K S35 sensor camera? People have been talking about S35@4K and 2/3"@3K but is there a technical or practical reason why S35@3K would be undesirable? Alexa (ARRIRAW) seems to be doing okay with similar specs.

Would it somehow be detrimental to RED's existing lineup to have an S35 sensor at 3K, 4K and 5K?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Is there any reason why RED couldn't make a 3K S35 sensor camera? People have been talking about S35@4K and 2/3"@3K but is there a technical or practical reason why S35@3K would be undesirable? Alexa (ARRIRAW) seems to be doing okay with similar specs.

Would it somehow be detrimental to RED's existing lineup to have an S35 sensor at 3K, 4K and 5K?

Why would they do that? It's a lot of additional design and development effort and for what purpose?

 

[Ryan Farnes]

Why would they do that? It's a lot of additional design and development effort and for what purpose?

Important to realize that development efficiency is not shared equally across Scarlet's development timeline. From the month following the tsunami until recently, half a year has passed. While I'm beginning to expect a more mundane change to Scarlet than many of us first thought, I wouldn't put it past RED to have made a more substantial change. It seems they've hit their stride and they could piggy back a lot of stuff right off of EPIC.

#butwhoreallyknows

 

[Brian Boyer]

Why would they do that? It's a lot of additional design and development effort and for what purpose?

I'm not making a suggestion, I'm asking a question.

By definition, won't everything RED does from this day forward require additional design and development?

If you'd care to elaborate and enlighten me, I'd like to know. But please, if you don't have an answer...don't.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

OPEN LETTER TO JIM AND JARRED | I don't know how you put up with some of this stuff ...

Well... I must be a bit sick I'm afraid. Though drama = conflict - friction - two opposing forces creates energy and all that... I thought it made for a decent morning RED fix imho.
Also felt everyone was clear and supportive in their reasoning, with little recourse to taking personal offense or offering attacks - and when it has appeared, was even questioned by there forumites. PRETTY IMPRESSIVE for a public forum I think.

That said, I do take your point Paul, and others, that the fact that the debate about specs has been shifted to the thread where people were asked to lower them is nothing short of hilarious. Better to laugh than get mad I think - or you can go crazy in this world.

Anyhow, my one cent, as I am interested in this debate, and for better or worse, this is where it currently resides...

Until the last two sneak preview announcements, I had thought that sensor size and resolution - ie - 4k S35 was where RED would duke it out with the competitors as Jim was saying he was so fired up and how amazing Scarlet is. It had seemed the only logical conclusion to me. But in light of Jim's recent announcements, I now believe I was almost certainly wrong. I will say I was never attached to this idea, as I believed like others that the 2/3 3k fixed was already going to be an indie dream camera. But I don't think it's about the sensor size and resolution as I initially thought it must be - I think it was always all about the performance of the camera and I was simply being too naive or narrow minded. To be fair sensor size and resolution have been the corner stones - followed afterwards by HDR and codec - so I understand why I personally had reasoned this way.

But now it seems very clear to me, that RED will do what they have always done, and deliver the best performance at the best price point they possibly can. Which is obviously unique in this industry and it's why 99% are all here and love them. So with Jim's recent announcements I realised my paradigm was vey likely wrong. Here's me thinking they will surely have to go bigger sensor or put up with every camera comparison review forever heralding the FS100's or latest DSLR's better DOF - and doing the old - so they all have pros and cons and you just need to choose the tool that is right for you.
But I don't think based on everything I have seen, RED accepts this concept in an around the price point of their cameras. They want to give us THE MOST KICK ASS tool bar none and are always doing incredible things to achieve it. Outside the box things.

So....
You want DOF, well here's what in your future as a RED user, choose your depth of field, however you like, hell change it again if you want without reshooting, and there's all the other incredible possibilities of when it comes yo keying and mattes etc... This is what we RED are working on.

What about low light performance? Well besides pushing images tat can hold up in post, in your future you will actually be able to even do this virtually.

Pretty amazing stuff.

But still you could say, sorry but that does not answer the 4K issue - which seemed to be the major sticking point, as then it rolls out into - well 4k = no point 2/3rd... etc...

Ok so if 4K+ is the future - it is surely because A) we will presumably be delivering in this medium everywhere eventually and B) because only then it can look as good as film ever has. Those are the two rationales?

So, the questions in regard to being "future proof" for me was can 3K be uprezzed to 4K for delivery and still hold up and look great?
Without being able to test. From what I have read. This certainly seems to be yes.
And to ensure this and continue to provide greater image quality and possibilities, RED is continually developing RAW and the RED workflow - oh, and it's free :yesnod:
Alchemy to Gold and all that.

So as a film maker, if 4K is the future, and my camera can readily be delivered to this level with suitable image quality, is my camera future proof. Yes it certainly is.

Which means, Jim does not need to be delivering 4K with Scarlet to not be in contradiction to his stated 4k belief Josh as you see it. I think he is actually servicing it. Where as say 2K... nup. 1080p? well yes.

As a film maker, at the end of the day when it comes to footage, what I care about is, does it look good enough for the big screen. At 2k or 4K projection will it work and looks great? Yes? Then I am in absolute (and future proof) happy land.

To after all these years to be even able to consider this for under 10k just blows my mind.

I now consider myself, to have gotten well and truly "Real" and I'm greatly looking forward to Nov 3rd. Cheers Jim.

Best Wishes all

Lliam

 

[Lliam Worthington]

I agree with Chevy Chase. Everyone is right.

All this other stuff about Alchemy has me thinking they may sell the 3K uprezzing to 4K is adequate.

Wow, you posted this why I was just typing my essay. Exactly my thoughts, in just a few words... sigh... cheers...
bastard :smile5:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm not making a suggestion, I'm asking a question.

By definition, won't everything RED does from this day forward require additional design and development?

If you'd care to elaborate and enlighten me, I'd like to know. But please, if you don't have an answer...don't.

I simply repeat - even if they could, why would they want to? It serves no purpose; doesn't improve anything. I am also asking a question - what purpose would such a (expensive) development serve? I guess the answer is, I imagine they could, but...

So, Brian - do you think the 11/3 announcement will be a 4K Scarlet? An S35 Scarlet? Both?

 

[Daniel Meador]

Jim,

I suggest the following.

Turn off your computer and lay out on the beach and forget about RED until you anncounce Scarlet.

I think that the adults on this site understand the difference between hype and reality. Scarlet is going to do the job and beautifully. With Raw!

The true out of sight expections are not with Scarlet but with each of the soon to be owners to live up to Scarlet and Red to produce art!

"You can't go pleasing everyone so screw it!" -John Lennon

 

[Greg Voevodsky]

Jim, don't you know X-mas is coming?! Are you forgetting how you felt when you saw a big red wrapped box for you under the tree? A week before Santa arrives? Have you forgotten shaking it? Is there a pet monkey in there? Is it an elephant? Though elephants are not that size... though maybe a pink one. ;-) You should be proud with Epic and wait to see how your much delayed X-prosumer, black sheep child is received. I hope and look forward to Scarlet, as I passed on my RED one #217, because it could not hear - and needed sound then and now. Scarlet is what I dreamed would have been RED 1. So I await it's delivery.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Taking potshots at me will get you nowhere, got nothing to lose, life is short and my lease could be up any day. Stop calling people ass kissers, you sound like a jerk who thinks they know everything. Nobody knows everything and that's the point. Measure this and measure that, sure. But blatantly feeling entitled to certain grain structure and firmware by this date and that ... and 4K this, future proof that.. If you are a new shooter, chances are, 3K is plenty good for your. If not, then buy an EPIC. As for the elitist cinefiles in this place, humor has never been a strong suit in our field but seriously, take a page from Jarred and Jim, spice up your life, be excited but anger and judgements should be saved for the day that will be the color Scarlet.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Taking potshots at me will get you nowhere, got nothing to lose, life is short and my lease could be up any day. Stop calling people ass kissers, you sound like a jerk who thinks they know everything. Nobody knows everything and that's the point. Measure this and measure that, sure.

Well, as always, people read what they want and ignore the words around it. I suppose you're responding to my post. Potshots at you? I really wasn't, but if you're feeling self-conscious...

If I have something to say to you I will quote you directly.

You're right. I was a little jerky about it, but this forum gets infuriating sometimes.

I was trying to start a real discussion about RED's competition without the usual blatant pandering getting in the way. I have no problem with RED cheerleading. I'm just a little tired of people posing legitimate questions or addressing real issues and other people derailing those discussions with "RED can do no wrong" rhetoric. I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. Jim's not perfect. RED's not perfect and neither are their cameras. They're awesome, just not perfect. People should be able to address that when necessary without over-the-top RED zeal. And if it makes you feel any better, some people I work with who hear me talk about RED almost everyday would probably classify me as one of those ass kissers.

Almost everyone who's posted on the subject of Scarlet lately thinks they know something others don't. Even the people who fall into the "what you are proposing is outrageous" camp are passively declaring what they believe to be true under the guise of it being more realistic.

The truth is none of us know for sure and I've always maintained that I could be wrong.

But blatantly feeling entitled to certain grain structure and firmware by this date and that ... and 4K this, future proof that.

That wasn't me so I won't respond to it.

If you are a new shooter, chances are, 3K is plenty good for your. If not, then buy an EPIC.

I'll be sure to tell Martin Scorsese that tidbit the next time I see him because he just directed "Hugo" on the Alexa. Are you sure you aren't sipping a little bit too much from the RED Kool-Aid well? I admitted to being a jerk. You could at least admit you come across as sounding somewhat young and impressionable.

Here's my perspective, for what it's worth. Statistically speaking, nearly every movie ever made was NOT shot on an Epic. In fact, nearly every motion image ever recorded was NOT shot on a RED camera of any kind. 4K ARRI film scans are a relatively new thing. As filmmakers, if we can't work with those odds, we should probably hang it up. Jim's philosophy, as I understand it, isn't 2K capture and/or exhibition inherently suck and aren't worth watching. It's 2K capture isn't a suitable REPLACEMENT for film, especially heading into the future. We should be able to discuss specs, configs and RED's competitors without behaving as if RED is the end-all, be-all. Jim said they love competition. It's what drives them. Let's try to remember that.

After such long posts you all will be happy to know that I plan to bow out of this conversation until November 3, unless specifically addressed. Even then, I'll make it short and sweet and agrravation-free.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I simply repeat - even if they could, why would they want to? It serves no purpose; doesn't improve anything. I am also asking a question - what purpose would such a (expensive) development serve? I guess the answer is, I imagine they could, but...

So, Brian - do you think the 11/3 announcement will be a 4K Scarlet? An S35 Scarlet? Both?

Jim has said of RED's competitors, "I think you can assume it applies to everything we have in the works. Our competition has responded to where they think we are going. That changed a long time ago." If that's true of Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Arri, etc. then it should also apply to everyone on this forum, no?

I think 2/3"@3K is the minimum safe bet. I've said numerous times what I believe about the future of Epic-S so, yes, I believe November 3 will also have some S35 (or similar) sized sensor news for the people interested in that camera. I think to cover everybody on the lower end, there will be at least two models of Scarlet to choose from.

As far as 3K, 4K & 5K, I haven't given it much thought and haven't posted anything about it beyond my last post. But, I was wondering...

If the FS100 is indeed a target for RED (which we won't know until a week from now), they might want to throw their hat in the ring of lower cost S35 cameras at a similar price point. If RED were to do that, what might it look like without giving away the farm? S35 at 3K with the benefits of RAW and HDRx and other RED goodness? Or, are they banking on 2/3" at 3K to get the job done? When Scarlet was announced, the FS100 didn't exist. But like I said, who knows if they're even going after that camera?

If the FS100 and F3 were responses to where Sony thought RED was going to be but RED was several moves ahead, you can't help but wonder about bigger sensor sizes. Maybe RED can kill them on ingenuity alone and doesn't need a bigger sensor at the FS100 price point. I don't know.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Time to close this thread.

 

[David Rasberry]

I think it most likely comes down to one or both of two possibilities.

2/3" 3k models as we have seen them. 5Mp

4k S35 model on the original Red 1M APSC sized sensor format. 8Mp

 

[John C Picking Jr]

I think calling people out who really love RED cameras and say good things about them all the time is really not needed on a REDUser forum. There is a DVXuser forum to promote other camera brands. This forum is for getting info from RED directly and then having fun discussing it. Why get so distressed? And BTW, RED is perfect!

You're right. I was a little jerky about it, but this forum gets infuriating sometimes.

 

[Ryan Farnes]

I think calling people out who really love RED cameras and say good things about them all the time is really not needed on a REDUser forum. There is a DVXuser forum to promote other camera brands. This forum is for getting info from RED directly and then having fun discussing it. Why get so distressed? And BTW, RED is perfect!

We do not speak of them who shall not be named!

 

[Ameer Azari]

Hey Jim,

I'm sure you've noticed a few of my (and other's) rather unrealistic pricing expectations. It's come to the point where I look at the Scarlet objectively and look at other camera's that are similar in spec, and I realise: There really aren't any cameras that are similar in spec...and that's the old Scarlet!!!

2/3" cameras that are "similar" in type and quality seem to come in at around $50,000...And I'm guessing the Scarlet is around $10,000...and hell, even if it was $20,000, it's still a bargain!!! (now don' t go getting any ideas...)

I guess what I'm trying to say is...thank you in advance, RED have done a great job, are doing a great job...and if I was a betting man, I'd say you guys are GOING to do an AMAZING job.

Don't be disillusioned by those people asking for the sun and the moon for the same price as 15 year old Ford Fiesta..., you know what you want to achieve, and you're doing it man!!!

 

[Christian Jadot]

Wow.... wait a minute. That means the Scarlet might not give me a foot massage and makes me a Martini?

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Is there any reason why RED couldn't make a 3K S35 sensor camera? People have been talking about S35@4K and 2/3"@3K but is there a technical or practical reason why S35@3K would be undesirable? Alexa (ARRIRAW) seems to be doing okay with similar specs.

Would it somehow be detrimental to RED's existing lineup to have an S35 sensor at 3K, 4K and 5K?

Why would they do that? It's a lot of additional design and development effort and for what purpose?

I have to agree with Terry here. I've suggested a 4K solution for Scarlet, but not necessarily one in response to the earthquakes and tsunami in Japan but one that was developed as a skunkworks project (come to think of it, all of Red's projects are skunkworks projects!). My point -- we have no idea what Red's been working on. With all the heated discussion about how 3K Scarlet fits into Red's 4K vision of the future, I seriously doubt they'd develop yet another one. A 3K S35 camera seems antithetical to what Red stands for. It would mean a lot of expensive development for something that's arguably a step backward.