Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Terry VerHaar]

...

Hopefully after Oct 31st I will not be left with Arri as my only reasonably safe investment option.

Yeah, cuz we all appreciate and value companies who charge too much for their equipment and do so persistently and relentless;y. :huh: Huh?

 

[Jason Diamond]

This could of gone 2 ways...

1. We could of released a brand new camera model for alot cheaper that did the same or more.. Trust me.. that would of put what you are already holding in your hand in a much worse position on the rental market.

2. Lower the price and continue along the upgrade system to keep what you are already holding in your hand "current", with the possible side effect of perhaps lowering rental prices.

If you look at it from 40,000 feet.. Door #2 is the better choice. #1 is inevitable... it will happen some day. But #2 keeps what you already own capable of being the best possible.

Both my Epic-M and X were paid off and making profit in 9months. Option #2 is much more preferable to me as the market doesn't shift with whats perceived as a "new" camera brain and at the same time lets me re-up into the system if I want now at a lower ROI. Add Dragon to the mix and we have the "newer" camera without upsetting the market as well as the buzz and rental bumps of the new sensor without a new camera for producers to have to "understand."

Sounds good to me all around.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

Feeling burnt by this now.

 

[Jarred Land]

Hopefully after Oct 31st I will not be left with Arri as my only reasonably safe investment option.

I think it is pretty safe to say that if we didn't come along that the Arri camera would of been 2..3.. times the price it is. Same with the F65. Your accountant should be thanking us... because as the economy tightens and for the most part production dollars continue to be in a nose dive, you are going to be ( if you aren't already ) getting lower rental rates regardless of what anyone is doing.. and it would really suck to be trying to convince productions to pay the rental rates that a camera that cost $200k or $300k would require to pay off.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob Ruffo- I am an early adopter. I made BANK (douible our investment) on Red One MX. I then paid a $20K premium for 2 Epic-X places in line under 100 and guess what?

the M came out and RED sold over 1000 EPIC ahead of me and NOT ONCE DID I FEEL SCREWED BY RED... I had bet on early rentals to pay for the premium.

THEN: I saw the Scarlet potentially eroding Epic X rentals in January 2012 and SOLD both EPIC-X for full price with the hope Id buy an EPIC back cheap later in the year if I was right... I have only had 2 calls for Epic rentals all year!
I bought and sold a Scarlet because as an Epic X owner that camera pissed me off. Plus there are dozens of those in my town with guys charging $200 a day WITH their camera. So I sold it.

If you are in the rental business you HAVE to think ahead. RED disrupting the industry has created competition in the 4K arena. Sony et all are not going silently into the night
so how could you not expect some BIG changes this year and especially next year??

You are clearly in the minority here but continue to bash this smart idea by RED ... why? It's not going to change Jim's mind, its only going to bum him out as it is doing me.
I have been in your shoes and sold my cameras at a loss. Now I look like a genius, but at the time it sucked... but I never bl;amed RED. because they are in brand new territory.

From rebel outsider to industry leader. becoming successful is the easy part, staying that way is the real challenge and getting more EPIC (not Scarlet) out there is brilliant.
The only camera I want to see GONE is the Scarlet. Its like a kit car, versus the real deal and that BUGS me but I don't blame RED... but I do like Jim's comment about EPIC

I think the vast majority of current Epic owners see this as a negative. Most posters do not currently own Epic cameras, so understandably they are happy to be able to get some for cheap. How could any of us current owners possibly benefit from this announcement?

Again, we rent very frequently to ourselves at rates that will allow us to recoup in 1.5 years or so. We rent to others with less frequency. Our Epic is a great camera, but at this point I wish I were a renter not an owner because I would have shot the same stuff using an Epic anyway, but renting I probably would come out way ahead all math considered if the price drop is too drastic.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I know there is some disappointment out there.. we anticipated that. It is a hard position to be in...

Jarred, some will be disappointed for sure, but there will be even more filmmakers who are glad. At the end of the day the best camera is the one we can afford, and with Red's news Epic will be available to more. I don't regret getting into the game for one second.

 

[AndrewThomas]

The price will be what the price will be. All the hand wringing before the change is announced is pretty damn silly.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think it is pretty safe to say that if we didn't come along that the Arri camera would of been 2..3.. times the price it is. Same with the F65. Your accountant should be thanking us... because as the economy tightens and for the most part production dollars continue to be in a nose dive, you are going to be ( if you aren't already ) getting lower rental rates regardless of what anyone is doing.. and it would really suck to be trying to convince productions to pay the rental rates that a camera that cost $200k or $300k would require to pay off.

I am not saying Red is a bad company. Until now I have had only extremely positive feelings about everything. I actively educate our clients about the benefits of Raw, how easy post in fact is, how reliability is excellent, etc. I am not ungrateful. I am simply very concerned about this one announcement and how it will affect our revenue in our little shop. As you say, things are nosediving - one more thing nose-diving would be most unhelpful at this time.

 

[Shapour Daneshmand]

Hyundais and Bentleys can both get you to your destination

go ahead! choose Hyundai.
I'll be driving my Bentley. In this case American made Bentley.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Yeah, cuz we all appreciate and value companies who charge too much for their equipment and do so persistently and relentless;y. :huh: Huh?

I don't like Alexas. I don't like the look and it's too big for the way we shoot (many hours of Steadicam all the time). But as a business investment, they rent like hotcakes here and clients have a very positive perception. The price, high or low, is at least stable. You can't amortize something that changes prices all the time for lower.

At some point, buying a camera will no longer be a sensible thing to do, and only people with no understanding of business or numbers will do so.

 

[Wil Wong]

I think Rental is a tricky game (for those that are thinking that this discount is bad business to them). In my opinion rental of Red Cameras or any product has a short life-span.

Imagine still having to rent a Telephone from your local phone company. In Canada, there was a time when Bell and phones were the only option cause it was their lines, their rules. We used to have to rent time in Edit suites (digital and analog). Imagine if we still had to rent Film cameras? Where are all the DVD rental stores today??

Rental, like any industry, changes. Grocery stores sell furniture and clothing now. There are no telephone switch board operators. In a few years, credit cards won't be on plastic. Rentals and what's in demand will change with life and well (faster then we would hope or expect), that's technology. I for one am glad that my Mac SE30 went down in value. Imagine what a new computer would cost if it didn't?!

Red's timing of this announcement may be suspiciously on the heel of the competition's announcement but no one said Red had to be courteous either. It is smart business but more importantly it's the message that sets the right tone and attitude. It's Responsible. Corporations should stride to be moral and responsible just like a human should. There's enough companies that continue to charge a premium just for the brand. Only a few deserve that premium (like Apple...in my opinion).

I hope folks look at the bigger picture and not about the dollar and sense. Be a little more selfless and think, a bigger Red community, the more third party products. The more Red Official products and money for R&D. Will this hurt Rentals? Everything hurts rentals. That's life.

My thoughts...from a guy that was laid off 3 years ago and now uses Red rentals as my lifeline and hopes and dreams for art and survival.

 

[Ben A.]

I don't know what my DVX and HVX are worth, but I got a feeling I should blame Y'all for making my ancient cameras worth even less than nothing ( at least in my eyes ) ;P Is a Bolex Rex 4 worth anything these days?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think Rental is a tricky game (for those that are thinking that this discount is bad business to them). In my opinion rental of Red Cameras or any product has a short life-span.

Imagine still having to rent a Telephone from your local phone company. In Canada, there was a time when Bell and phones were the only option cause it was their lines, their rules. We used to have to rent time in Edit suites (digital and analog). Imagine if we still had to rent Film cameras? Where are all the DVD rental stores today??

Rental, like any industry, changes. Grocery stores sell furniture and clothing now. There are no telephone switch board operators. In a few years, credit cards won't be on plastic. Rentals and what's in demand will change with life and well (faster then we would hope or expect), that's technology. I for one am glad that my Mac SE30 went down in value. Imagine what a new computer would cost if it didn't?!

Red's timing of this announcement may be suspiciously on the heel of the competition's announcement but no one said Red had to be courteous either. It is smart business but more importantly it's the message that sets the right tone and attitude. It's Responsible. Corporations should stride to be moral and responsible just like a human should. There's enough companies that continue to charge a premium just for the brand. Only a few deserve that premium (like Apple...in my opinion).

I hope folks look at the bigger picture and not about the dollar and sense. Be a little more selfless and think, a bigger Red community, the more third party products. The more Red Official products and money for R&D. Will this hurt Rentals? Everything hurts rentals. That's life.

My thoughts...from a guy that was laid off 3 years ago and now uses Red rentals as my lifeline and hopes and dreams for art and survival.

So you're happy that your income will be going down? "Sorry honey, no vacation this year, but some kid in Ohio I never met can shoot his short on Epic instead of Scarlet, and Reduser has more members than ever!" Please send me a picture of your wife's reaction.

Yes, businesses transition. But businesses also eat themselves at some point. This process can be slowed or accelerated depending on the actions of those involved. Like I said, at some point it will be a reasonable conclusion that buying a camera cannot be a good investment. Of course a DV camera from 15 years ago is worthless, but most of us bought our Epics far less than 1 year ago. Just the body was more than $34K. That's a scary position for us now. I'd add that sure, Canon comes out with cameras every five minutes, but they, for the most part, cost half that much or less.

As for clothing in supermarkets, I don't know anybody who shops there, any more than my clients would want to see Black Magic camera or an F3 on their set. They want what they PERCEIVE to be the best (within reason). Low pricing does not help that perception. Some of you will say "they should not think that way". Who cares. They just do.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Most posters do not currently own Epic cameras, so understandably they are happy to be able to get some for cheap. How could any of us current owners possibly benefit from this announcement?

I own an EPIC-X. I'm thrilled by this move by RED. The ubiquitousness of the camera will mean ENHANCED and simple workflows, TONS of usage, and a broad base for the RED world of products. This is what I've bought into, and I want to see RED thrive, not just survive.

Onward RED. I think this is a smart move. Do I feel bits of regret? Well... yeah... a bit... but to hell with that. Keep doing what you are doing. Before you came along, my options as a Filmmaker were zero to none. (I shot my first feature on 35mm, and God, the money sink THAT was!)

 

[Ruff]

Rob Ruffo... you are bang on the money.

If Red messes this move up they will alienate and lose their current customers.

Seems like a race to the bottom. An attempt to capture new market share.

I didn't buy the C300 because the C500 came straight afterwards. So, I can't trust Canon when Canon is releasing the C700.

If Red changes their prices all the time, without giving me enough time to pay off my cameras, then it is very hard to hold this trust.

I will just stop investing as it becomes a gamble.

It's tricky, because Red has two very different markets to keep happy.
1. The 'indi' filmmaker who makes films with friends and is just stoked to be around a camera on their weekends off from their normal job.
2. The professional cameraman or rental house that was in the industry a long time before Red came along, and pays their bills and mortgages from camerawork.

I don't know what the answer is... but it seems to me that this announcement is making group 1 very happy, and group 2 very un happy.

 

[Andy Roberts]

I hope folks look at the bigger picture and not about the dollar and sense.

Hopefully we're all concerned with what makes "sense" even if we lose (or gain) a few "cents."

Don't worry Will, I no I spell phonetically sometimes two. :laugh::wink5:

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

@Rob

I think it's safe to safe the Red rental market is gonna be somewhat dead or leaving out how ever you look at it.

It's gonna be expected of DP's to own their own gear and include it as a day rate for all the non-union folks kinda like what it's like on 5D gigs. Red seems to be leaning towards that market at this point in time. They want a Red on every set just like there where 5D on every set in 2009.

getting into the 600 with a good clique that can provide consistent work is like trying to get signed onto a record label. It's really hard, I know there's allot of older AC who are burnt from the industry so it's making wave for all the younger folk like me.

once I get that spot if I do, I will then have to decide if it's all that it's dreamt up to be? That will be for our generation to decide and results will begin to show through out this decade if it hasn't already. Only the best and passionate will hang.

Old school film makers had to go through the rigorous process of working up the industry to get their film made; in todays world almost anyone wil be able to tell their story.



Two brain surgens are about to start on an operation.

one of the surgens is a bit nervous.

the other surgen notices and responds.

"take it easy don't get so stressed out, whats a'mater with you? you think we're making a movie here?"

 

[Wil Wong]

Rob, it comes with the territory of owning technology. Like it or not, no one likes things to depreciate. Then again, shouldn't equipment get cheaper to the renter each time it get's used. After all, it's not as new as the last person that used it.

As for that 'kid' in your example, more power to them if they can now afford an Epic. Filmmaking shouldn't be a game of affordability but about the art or the tools. It still comes down to what they can do with it. They can rent an Epic and make crap. They can shoot on an iPhone and make amazing stuff. That person that can do amazing stuff on an iphone will also make amazing stuff on an Epic (pro quality).

Can you be happy that your iPad just got replaced with a new model? If you can't, then life gonna be very miserable. Things change. Tools get better, cheaper. That's life.

 

[Jarred Land]

Seems like a race to the bottom. An attempt to capture new market share..

Its actually a race to the top.. unfortunately the ones that don't get that are in for a rocky ride.

Cameras are getting better for cheaper. There is no getting around that. Look around. A current $500 entry level DSLR shoots better images than a $10,000 DSLR from just 2 years ago. Take a look over at DXOmark .. From a pure technical image quality rating there are $2000 cameras stomping $60,000 digital backs.

Its just going to happen. We know China is trying to copy what we are doing.. along with a ton of other companies. And they will release something for cheap and they wont give a shit about the customer.. and the net effect stays the same.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I think the vast majority of current Epic owners see this as a negative. Most posters do not currently own Epic cameras, so understandably they are happy to be able to get some for cheap. How could any of us current owners possibly benefit from this announcement?

Again, we rent very frequently to ourselves at rates that will allow us to recoup in 1.5 years or so. We rent to others with less frequency. Our Epic is a great camera, but at this point I wish I were a renter not an owner because I would have shot the same stuff using an Epic anyway, but renting I probably would come out way ahead all math considered if the price drop is too drastic.

Rob Ruffo... you are bang on the money.

If Red messes this move up they will alienate and lose their current customers.

Seems like a race to the bottom. An attempt to capture new market share.

I didn't buy the C300 because the C500 came straight afterwards. So, I can't trust Canon when Canon is releasing the C700.

If Red changes their prices all the time, without giving me enough time to pay off my cameras, then it is very hard to hold this trust.

I will just stop investing as it becomes a gamble.

It's tricky, because Red has two very different markets to keep happy.
1. The 'indi' filmmaker who makes films with friends and is just stoked to be around a camera on their weekends off from their normal job.
2. The professional cameraman or rental house that was in the industry a long time before Red came along, and pays their bills and mortgages from camerawork.

I don't know what the answer is... but it seems to me that this announcement is making group 1 very happy, and group 2 very un happy.

This is not company's ballpark. A cinema camera company must not be the Divine providence of their customers.

And there are not old nor new customers, just customers (E