Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Carl Weston]

Some company out there is going to release a S35 or FF 4k camera for $5k or even less in the next 24 months.

 

[Samir Patel]

Hyundais and Bentleys can both get you to your destination

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Dude, you rent your camera to your clients for your own productions - not just to other people, and almost all owner-operators rent to others to help make ends meet unless they are shooting every day, which is rare. If you rent your camera to your own productions for nothing your purchase is just money down the drain. Red's business model is not only centered around artists/hobbiests.

We rent our Epic to our own prods for about $950 a day (just the cam kit, no lenses). Let's say that after Jim's announcement the price is half. So now I am renting for $425 a day to our own prods. That's $425 a day less going into my pocket. On a 3 Day music video shoot, Jim's announcement just cost me $1275. Can you see how maybe that is not "wonderful news" to me and my small business in this economy?

I never said that RED's business model was centered on artists/hobbyists. As an owner operator you can account for your investment in lots of different ways. For one thing, as Terry pointed out above, you get a tax deduction or depreciation for your investment. You also get the flexibility to package yourself and your gear in many different ways depending on the situation. For example, you can "throw in" your gear when it is desirable or necessary to close a deal, or to land a new client.

It seems to me that the retail price of your gear is only a problem if you itemize each line item that you are "renting" to your clients and tell them that you are charging them a percentage of purchase price. If you charge a package price of your equipment for X dollars a day, it is really irrelevant what the manufacturer sells that gear for. If others in your market choose to rent a similar package for less, you have several options...lower your rates to compete, throw in more items or services to make up for the additional amount you are charging, or convince your clients that you are worth the additional cost over your competitor because of your experience and track record. Before I started teaching I owned various production companies and studios for many years. There were some pieces of gear that I made a ton of money on, and some that I lost money on...but in the end, the gear was just there to facilitate selling my abilities to deliver what my clients wanted.

 

[Samir Patel]

I think one of the things everyone forgets is the amount of constant updating RED does on firmware to benefit users. I mean Canon just announced a 5d3 firmware update which is not even released until April of 2013. Are you f'ing kidding me? WTF?

 

[ryanpostas]

Some company out there is going to release a S35 or FF 4k camera for $5k or even less in the next 24 months.

Go Pro 3 is 4k (at 15fps for now) for $400- so i believe you are correct!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Rob Ruffo- I am an early adopter. I made BANK (douible our investment) on Red One MX. I then paid a $20K premium for 2 Epic-X places in line under 100 and guess what?

the M came out and RED sold over 1000 EPIC ahead of me and NOT ONCE DID I FEEL SCREWED BY RED... I had bet on early rentals to pay for the premium.

THEN: I saw the Scarlet potentially eroding Epic X rentals in January 2012 and SOLD both EPIC-X for full price with the hope Id buy an EPIC back cheap later in the year if I was right... I have only had 2 calls for Epic rentals all year!
I bought and sold a Scarlet because as an Epic X owner that camera pissed me off. Plus there are dozens of those in my town with guys charging $200 a day WITH their camera. So I sold it.

If you are in the rental business you HAVE to think ahead. RED disrupting the industry has created competition in the 4K arena. Sony et all are not going silently into the night
so how could you not expect some BIG changes this year and especially next year??

You are clearly in the minority here but continue to bash this smart idea by RED ... why? It's not going to change Jim's mind, its only going to bum him out as it is doing me.
I have been in your shoes and sold my cameras at a loss. Now I look like a genius, but at the time it sucked... but I never bl;amed RED. because they are in brand new territory.

From rebel outsider to industry leader. becoming successful is the easy part, staying that way is the real challenge and getting more EPIC (not Scarlet) out there is brilliant.
The only camera I want to see GONE is the Scarlet. Its like a kit car, versus the real deal and that BUGS me but I don't blame RED... but I do like Jim's comment about EPIC

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Can't help but be disappointed... Yes Jim, it is the nature of electronics, and the nature sucks. Thanks for trying to sugar coat some broccoli for us though...

I lost a huge number of clients who hired me with my Red One and decided 'the new Scarlets 4k costs much less to rent/hire and 4k is plenty, no need for 4.5k or 5k'... Now more people will be able to afford Epics and make making a living with it more difficult.

Red has given us an amazing camera that has made making a living off of a single 'electronic' possible (and they are absolutely AWESOME for this), but I feel sadly the magic is wearing off now that the market is becoming a bit saturated (and a cheaper 4k Red camera has come out). I realize the prices haven't been dropped yet, so as of this point I am referring to mostly the Scarlet.

 

[Zeb B]

Because of the great upgrade path you're going to offer Scarlet owners in order to simplify Dragon upgrades... right? Like $6k -> Epic + $6k -> Dragon? hint hint.

Just think how much less R&D it would be to not worry about upgrading Scarlets. Everyone owns an epic. Everyone has one camera. One upgrade path. One product to support. One firmware.

Agreed: In-N-Out burger, WD-40 and iPhone seem to do OK with a very limited line of goods. Sunset the Scarlet and go all in on Epic!! Always thought Scarlet was a weakass gateway drug to the real thing. Trying to fit a 10lb Dragon into a 5lb Scarlet box is not worth the R&D cost IMHO. If customers what the good shit - then step up and buy it and put it to work. Either way, stop whining about the lack of a clear upgrade path from your Scarlet VW to the Dragon ready 911.

BTW: I am one of those "M" guys who paid full pop and now gives zero fucks about this price decrease. It has been a good ride so far.

 

[Carl Weston]

Yeah but I'm thinking S35 of FF...4k Gopro3 4k feature to me is mostly useless.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Because of the great upgrade path you're going to offer Scarlet owners in order to simplify Dragon upgrades... right? Like $6k -> Epic + $6k -> Dragon? hint hint.

Just think how much less R&D it would be to not worry about upgrading Scarlets. Everyone owns an epic. Everyone has one camera. One upgrade path. One product to support. One firmware.

uh you of course mean one infinitely configurable CAMERA product to support... Lets not forget the most exciting products on the HORIZON. RED LASER PROJECTOR/RED RAY!

 

[Zeb B]

Yeah but I'm thinking S35 of FF...4k Gopro3 4k feature to me is mostly useless.

GoPro: It's a proof of 4K concept and a shot over the bow for those paying attention. Hero4 will clearly be 4K@30fps one year from now

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Seems like there's some folks who are pretty burnt about the price dropping.

Honestly if your buying a Red thinking you can make it back in rentals really think again. Depending where you live it's a risk your gonna have to gamble on. In this day in age owning any new latest and greatest isn't the best business model that everyone thinks is fool proof. Most people are pretty confident until their camera sits for two months or more. There's a ton of things to consider..... Clients, location, kit details.

Owning a Red for sure is a money pit if you can't fork up the initial start up dough, you'll be a slave to your Red until the kit is complete.

If you live in LA, it's already so camera saturated here, it's prob not a good choice unless you have consistent solid paying clients. As Scarlet owners we get boned pretty bad by Epic owners and usually they'll match my Scarlet pricing so it seems kinda fair to me that Epic is dropping in price. My perspective would prob be different if I was coming from the Epic angle. Its hard to know how many Red camera owners are in your town but thats a start. When I was living in Austin there were about 5 notable Red owners once Scarlet dropped its been really hard to keep track. Def over a dozen which is a substantial increase. It all comes down to if your a key player on the field, have a rental shop to sub-lease, or a kit that everyone wants to shot on. From the looks of most kits I've seen out there are pretty barebone and basic kits, no cool bells no cool whistles.

I really want to get into an Epic but at what cost? I've had to make pretty big sacrifices this year just to be a Scarlet owner so this news is great to people who are currently on the fence with dough, but I can kinda care less since i know I can't afford it. All I have left is a FF MB and set of sticks before I can consider my kit complete, until that day comes I'm still grinding like a monthef*^% to meet my goal. Which isn't bad considering my camera shipped with the first batch back in January 2011.

Luckily my kit has been booked for two gigs this month and all of the 1st week of Nov. So currently I'm very blessed that business has picked up, but my dough is going to a new Mac set up and prob a FF, Scarlet has eaten too much of my funds for 2012. My DIT kit has been needing some love.

If anything I'd like to see a $Xk uprgade path to Epic from Scarlet. If it's $XXK then you totally lost my interest for now.

hopefully everyone else can get something out of this.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

WOW! Amazing. I expected this at some point, but not so fast. Congratulations, RED Team!!

Will the new EPICs be better as well to boot, and in a way that the current EPICs won't be upgradeable to? Maybe the Stage 4 folks, who were the only ones who didn't get any discount if I remember correctly, get a stab at a Dragon upgrade discount? :yesnod:

Nice work!

 

[Tom Hamilton]

So if you bought an EPIC did you lose? Only if you did not put your EPIC to work. These are professional tools. They need to work. That is your responsibility.

Well, you splashed the market with barely used cheap Scarlets just a couple of weeks ago, no doubt the folks who paid full price just prior to that are twitching most uncomfortably. Now you're doing the same to the Epic folks. I'm guessing the resale value of my 234 will have dropped 10K or so within the next week.

You speak of responsibility? It is my responsibility to examine carefully those products I purchase for the work I do. It is also my responsibility to gauge at what point I trade in said products for upgrade, in the hopes I capture maximum return on my original investment.

That the entire Red philosophy has now seemingly morphed into a competitive race to the bottom, no doubt to stimulate sales, is instructive.

What can we expect as the next move?

I am appalled.

 

[Prince Bagdasarian]

Seems like there's some folks who are pretty burnt about the price dropping.

Honestly if your buying a Red thinking you can make it back in rentals really think again. Depending where you live it's a risk your gonna have to gamble on. In this day in age owning any new latest and greatest isn't the best business model that everyone thinks is fool proof. Most people are pretty confident until their camera sits for two months or more. There's a ton of things to consider..... Clients, location, kit details.

Owning a Red for sure is a money pit if you can't fork up the initial start up dough, you'll be a slave to your Red until the kit is complete.

If you live in LA, it's already so camera saturated here, it's prob not a good choice unless you have consistent solid paying clients. As Scarlet owners we get boned pretty bad by Epic owners and usually they'll match my Scarlet pricing so it seems kinda fair to me that Epic is dropping in price. My perspective would prob be different if I was coming from the Epic angle. Its hard to know how many Red camera owners are in your town but thats a start. When I was living in Austin there were about 5 notable Red owners once Scarlet dropped its been really hard to keep track. Def over a dozen which is a substantial increase. It all comes down to if your a key player on the field, have a rental shop to sub-lease, or a kit that everyone wants to shot on. From the looks of most kits I've seen out there are pretty barebone and basic kits, no cool bells no cool whistles.

I really want to get into an Epic but at what cost? I've had to make pretty big sacrifices this year just to be a Scarlet owner so this news is great to people who are currently on the fence with dough, but I can kinda care less since i know I can't afford it. All I have left is a FF MB and set of sticks before I can consider my kit complete, until that day comes I'm still grinding like a monthef*^% to meet my goal. Which isn't bad considering my camera shipped with the first batch back in January 2011.

Luckily my kit has been booked for two gigs this month and all of the 1st week of Nov. So currently I'm very blessed that business has picked up, but my dough is going to a new Mac set up and prob a FF, Scarlet has eaten too much of my funds for 2012. My DIT kit has been needing some love.

If anything I'd like to see a $Xk uprgade path to Epic from Scarlet. If it's $XXK then you totally lost my interest for now.

hopefully everyone else can get something out of this.

Cid, I'm in the same exact boat brotha!

 

[Andy Roberts]

People seem to be asking the same questions over and over. Here is what I've gathered from reading all the posts. I apologize in advance for not finding Jim and Jarred's direct quotes.
- Yes, there MAY be a cut in Scarlet's and Monochrome's price too.
- No, the price cuts are not across the board for everything Red makes - cameras only
- No, this is not changing the price of the Dragon upgrade. It remains at $6K even though the price should have actually gone up to due the new ASIC work

I think everyone just needs to chill until the actual prices come out. Remember that the Epic-X was around $28K until the January 12 price jump to $35K. I personally would be surprised if it ever dropped to $28K or below.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I once bought a second-hand iPod 3G right before the 5G (with video) was released. If I waited two more weeks I would have had a better model at a cheaper price. It was just bad timing and I shrugged it off.

can't tell you how many times when on location, someone would come up and say, "I have that camera" often with the implication that, "I could do that, you're not so special".

Maybe they were just bonding. :sosp: It's still lame, though. Whenever I see photographers doing their job, I leave them alone.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

@Tom

AF-100 retailed for $5,500 now can be bought on eBay for $1,800

what's next?....

Camera Wars hoomie

blood is being shed

just like photography it isn't gonna matter what camera you have everything is gonna be good enough.

I know many shooters who are happy with their OG 2005 5D for stills and are buying used MkII when the time comes and yes it's 2012. They aren't even thinking about the MkIII.

Seems like Scarlet is gonna be that baseline standard along with Epic and R1 is gonna get dirt cheap.

4K is gonna be the new 1080p

My de-lima is if these bodys are so cheap how hard is it gonna be to sell a Dragon camera when you can get a killer deal on current generation technology which is more than oscar worthy quality.

Allot of productions won't touch 5K so 6K is gonna be a major stretch.

theres gonna be a pro in all of us pretty soon I hope your ready.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I never said that RED's business model was centered on artists/hobbyists. As an owner operator you can account for your investment in lots of different ways. For one thing, as Terry pointed out above, you get a tax deduction or depreciation for your investment. You also get the flexibility to package yourself and your gear in many different ways depending on the situation. For example, you can "throw in" your gear when it is desirable or necessary to close a deal, or to land a new client.

It seems to me that the retail price of your gear is only a problem if you itemize each line item that you are "renting" to your clients and tell them that you are charging them a percentage of purchase price. If you charge a package price of your equipment for X dollars a day, it is really irrelevant what the manufacturer sells that gear for. If others in your market choose to rent a similar package for less, you have several options...lower your rates to compete, throw in more items or services to make up for the additional amount you are charging, or convince your clients that you are worth the additional cost over your competitor because of your experience and track record. Before I started teaching I owned various production companies and studios for many years. There were some pieces of gear that I made a ton of money on, and some that I lost money on...but in the end, the gear was just there to facilitate selling my abilities to deliver what my clients wanted.

In Montreal, I can rent anything I want - I can serve clients with gigs that involve 50 light-sources if the budget is there. I can fly in even more gear from Toronto. What I own does not limit my ability to serve clients at all. Like most production centers. We only buy if we think we can amortize. My clients would never hire an other DP to save $425 a day, but they likely would ask that I match other indy operators prices on the gear. If Red slashes prices and floods the market with tons of cheap Epics, indy operators will all go down in price. And yes, rental is based on a percentage of purchase value, and yes, clients have web access. My time is another matter, and in fact is much more expensive than most other DPs in town - but that is a separate negotiation. What I do as a D.P. is unique to me, as it is to all DPs. Gear is rather commodity-like, as long as your maintenance is acceptable.

Until now, I could trust Red and Arri to not have sudden price drops. Buying their cameras was a solid investment my accountant would in no way consider foolish. Hopefully after Oct 31st I will not be left with Arri as my only reasonably safe investment option. I hope Red knows that their not suddenly slashing prices was a big part of many our reasons to buy. It was a safeguard. I would never buy an expensive Canon camera because of how new models come out from them every week it seems. If ever Canon came out with a cam I wanted to shoot with, I would just rent it - the numbers could never make sense otherwise.

You know for some on this forum, even more than for us, Epics were a major investment - if their major investment can generate 50% less revenue all of a sudden because of some new "We're the cheapest" strategy on Red's part, a lot of people are going to go under. And when Epic II comes out, that will mean way less buyers for Red - and Dragon? How are they going to finance 20K of new computers plus the sensor upgrade if their camera is renting for $425 a day (to themselves and others)? It takes 1.5 years to recoup a camera, not 5 months. Most people who own Epics now have only had them for 5- 10 months, many less. If rental is suddenly half what it was, it means it will take 3 years to amortize the fully paid price (read: you won't ever amortize it.)

I hope they don't. I really, really hope the price drop is down to 25K or so. That won't kill any of us. 15 K? That's a painful burn.

Besides, people maybe can chose Red because it's better. Maybe that's a better strategy than just being ultra-cheap. If it's too cheap, perception will become rather negative. Already Alexa has the aura of being the "deluxe choice" and Scarlet as the no-money student film-ish choice, even if in some ways the Scarlet is technically a better camera. As I remember, Jim didn't make his fortune by selling the cheapest sunglasses, he sold the coolest and best quality ones at premium prices.

I've rarely seen anyone succeed by being the cheapest.

 

[Jarred Land]

I know there is some disappointment out there.. we anticipated that. It is a hard position to be in..

Either lower prices to what they really should be, and piss off our loyal customers that we owe the world to.... or keep the prices the same, not piss off our existing customers , but charge too much for new customers in a growing more "realistic" market that we like to think we helped create.

We started all this to keep things fair.. charging fair prices against our costs and not compromising product to protect legacy. Making just enough profit to keep healthy. We don't sample the market to determine pricing. We charge what is fair. For the bigger picture.. that is good for everyone. For the little picture.. that can personally sting a little when the market evolves.

Hopefully we do enough things that make people feel good about what we do to offset the sting that comes fact that the world changes.. and follow the nature of electronics.

This could of gone 2 ways...

1. We could of released a brand new camera model for alot cheaper that did the same or more.. Trust me.. that would of put what you are already holding in your hand in a much worse position on the rental market.

2. Lower the price and continue along the upgrade system to keep what you are already holding in your hand "current", with the possible side effect of perhaps lowering rental prices.

If you look at it from 40,000 feet.. Door #2 is the better choice. #1 is inevitable... it will happen some day. But #2 keeps what you already own capable of being the best possible.