Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Milan Spasic]

Im not putting anyone down. Im calling a spade a spade and think all this passive aggressive posturing by people who are struggling to recoup their investment, and BLAMING that on RED pricing, is just plain WRONG.
Thats not a personal attack. You guys are affecting my selfish agenda... correct, so Im voicing my opinion, like Rob is voicing his. You seem to keep attacking Tom Lowe. Why?

New flash. Red isnt going to do what's best for you or me. They will do whats best for RED and the future. Im annoyed by Rob's posting veiled threats like "if the price is too low Im going to...become a customer of "insert competitor" here.
Call me crazy but I find it rude and I was "kidding". I dont want anyone to get hurt anymore than RED does. BUT your being hurt by a price cut is NOT A REASON not to discount. They know its inevitable.
You absolutely have a right to be disappointed. You have a right to try and influence a smaller discount. I reserve the same right to influence a large as possible one. But do please stop attacking Tom Lowe.

Nobody is attacking Tom Lowe. He is repeatedly insulting people who voice their opinions. "I'm sick of crybabies" is neither professional nor moderator - like. And this is not the first time it happened. So please stop using language like "attacking" or "character assassination", you are overreacting.

Martin or Jarred would ban anybody else using that kind of language. Excluding you of course.

BTW, I recouped my investment long time ago. The problem is that the obsolescence, devaluation and undercutting are killing the profit to the point that is hard to keep up with the upgrades for a relatively small operation like mine.

 

[John semikian]

Interesting thread at DVXuser - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?295765-Pmw-F5-amp-F55/page14

A link there for prices at Euro 18,995 for the F55 - that'll be approx $25K. But without onboard RAW etc (ie you still need to get the extra unit).

So, IF Jim's REDuction (LOL) on the EPIC comes in around the $25K-$27K region, that would give you Epic and RAW for a lot less... then maybe a $30K-$35K price point for the EPIC-Dragon.

Not saying they're correct!!! - as this all seems like a poker game now (who shows first).

Interesting times... and I am an Epic owner.

Well all things considered you can't really capture 4k or anything for that matter just by buying an EPIC.. You can't even turn the thing on.. You have to spend at least $3 - $5k more (not including lenses) just to have a decent camera ready to shoot. Not to mention the need for an expensive module for some of us. I'm hoping for $20k - $22k price point especially because in just a matter of months the dragon will be out and the EPIC X won't be the best camera RED has to offer.

you can still have Dragon at $30k and everyone who bought an EPIC before dragons release can still upgrade for $6k and everyone who wishes to upgrade and bought the EPIC X after Dragons release should have to pay the $8k -$10k difference.

Sony's no joke dude. They're serious about winning some market share back. This price reduction can't be a joke either. It's got to send a stern message and a shot across Sony's bow. Then hopefully Dragons quality will just sink their ship.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

John makes a good point here. RED has to take Sony's new offerings seriously and set new proces competitively. I think it is more important in the long run to protect it's market than to keep prices high so it's prior buyers don't get upset. Let's face it, Epic rentals are going to lose out to Sony at some point if new Sony's are priced competitively and Epic prices don't come down. A lot of the hand-wringing here about RED lowering prices is irrelevant if it is Sony that starts winning rentals from Arri.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Agreed Josh, we love our Scarlet...but an Epic would be..well..Epic

I think this will happen at some point anyways. At the point where the Scarlet is, it sounds like it would cost more than the body for an upgrade, which defeats the purpose. Maybe provide Scarlet buyers a stage 2/3 type deal handing it out after the person has maybe owned the camera for awhile, so you can't just buy a Scarlet and abuse the upgrade. Say you start with November 2011 orders and break it down by the months following? Not that anyone is more entitled than anyone else, but there are some who waited MONTHS from the initial orders on the 3rd, and took the leap. This would provide a similar hierarchy to how things have gone in the past. This is just assuming this is the road map you have to take for an upgrade.

Then with the Scarlets they bring in sell them as BT, prevents the market from flooding with super cheap Scarlets, and also gives those who want more from there camera to upgrade, those who don't can keep the camera and push forward.

 

[Elan Gunos]

Definitely no joking around this year, looks like Sony finally realized no one was taking their cinema cameras seriously and they're swinging for the fences. The features stand toe to toe with Alexa and Red for the first time. This is unlike last year's Canon announcement when they were dicking around with their C300.

Sony's no joke dude. They're serious about winning some market share back. This price reduction can't be a joke either. It's got to send a stern message and a shot across Sony's bow. Then hopefully Dragons quality will just sink their ship.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

BTW, I recouped my investment long time ago. The problem is that the obsolescence, devaluation and undercutting are killing the profit to the point that is hard to keep up with the upgrades for a relatively small operation like mine.

Now this is something we can talk about. The market is tough. Sony just unveiled some incredible new toys... (with several KEY features being delayed via a future firmware upgrade) EPIC is 2 years old now since it shot its first film. The sensor is even older... I still FIRMLY believe that RED has aimed for where we are going not where we are. These new cameras just caught up to a 2 year old camera! Dragon (and all that stuff jim keeps hinting about) keeps me warm at night.

I have had to reinvent my business after realizing that the days of RED being the ONLY 4K cinema quality camera, has changed. The M-X single handedly kept my business alive in 2011. New buildout and a completed stage has been my 2012 focus for expanding my post and studio offerings for 2013. I also invested $500K with Quantel and that turned out horribly... given they now joined Misitika and Resolve with Software only solutions. I know all too well about how much price
drops can hurt a little company... but this price drop is INEVITABLE and necessary now and it needs to be SUBSTANTIAl to keep EPIC relevant while RED prepares to take our investment to another level. OR they risk losing market share. Which is not good for any of us

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well all things considered you can't really capture 4k or anything for that matter just by buying an EPIC.. You can't even turn the thing on.. You have to spend at least $3 - $5k more (not including lenses) just to have a decent camera ready to shoot.

Yeah. I think any comparisons to F55 need to take into account that it comes with a PL mount, Battery Mount and 'Proxy Module' built in. So that's about $5k right there. If RAW is important to you, obviously you need to add at least $5k to the F55 which would cancel that out. Horses for courses.

 

[John semikian]

this price drop is INEVITABLE and necessary now and it needs to be SUBSTANTIAl to keep EPIC relevant while RED prepares to take our investment to another level. OR they risk losing market share. Which is not good for any of us

100% agree with you. Lets send Sony back to the lab to focus on TVs and playstations, or they will hurt Red. No two ways about it.


p.s. terry i love your profile pic of that dog just relaxing.

 

[patrickortman]

>>Sony's no joke dude.

I keep thinking about that old book by Scott Billups, where he talks about being on the inside at SONY, etc. And seeing technology years and years ahead of where we were at the time. And I think he said they were purposely holding it back, so as not to kill the market.

RED forced them to get serious much quicker than I bet they would have liked. But yeah, they're no joke.

Then again, neither is RED.

SONY has some things on its side. So does RED. It'll be a battle royale, and I hope RED wins.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

In lieu of the recent Sony announcement and the general situation, the first thing I have to say is that I truly hope the price cut is SIGNIFICANT, as in, Epic X selling for under $20K, anything higher than that and this move, if it is a move at all on RED's part and not just a regular adjustment, won't really make that much of a difference one way or another.

I feel for, and understand very well, the points made by all the independent/small rental house operators, but then, Epic going down in price won't be the proverbial nail in their coffin. First of all, running a small rental is akin to playing with fire. Having a business model to follow is all well, but the truth we have learned from these uncertain times is that business models can be flipped on their belly at any time without warning. The only people that really can survive in the rental business are the big houses, and it is not because they have lots of everything and can accommodate more renters, which helps, it is simply they have big, fat customers in the shape of TV shows, commercial and PR firms and the occasional film production. Those always rent from big players, not the guy with 1 or 2 Epics. I am a small operator, but I rent out complete packages not gear. We specialize on underwater production, but when people come to us, I don't itemize camera, lenses, etc, etc. We offer a package with camera, glass, lights, and other specialty gear which is just as important underwater, such as scooters to achieve long moving shots, or divers with the skillset to operate cameras in very deep water, etc, etc. We only ask our clients if they want HD or 4K for deliverables, and I may well make that decision for them given the constraints the particular shot requires, basically telling them that "this is possible but not that" They don't come to us because of the camera we use but for a package that is far more rounded than that. I know this model is very specific to underwater production, but someway, somehow, every small owner/renter should try to do that, to offer a package whose whole value is bigger than the sum of its components. We have managed to extrapolate that recipe to the topside shots we do. The important things is to stay busy, to work, for your gear not to collect dust and your people not to be idle, so we don't follow depreciation formulas and whatnot, choosing instead to keep all of our gear working and generating income even if the numbers don't make sense. We have steadicams, dollies, cranes and sliders, and more often than not, we rent out whole kits that include most of that stuff. On some shots we make more, on others less, but at the end of the year, we always break far above even, if following typical depreciation formulas. And no, we don't send out people and gear for $200-300 per day. We always offer a package that, as a whole, is extremely attractive, but we never undersell ourselves. I guess it would be more difficult to do that if you have limited gear, like a camera, two batteries and 1-2 lenses. But there are always ways to keep generating income, so long as our sights stay on the bigger picture and not the feasibility or not of job by job.

Lastly, the reason most Epic owners loose rentals is mostly because at that level, there is increasing competition. Sony and Canon have tons of cameras to offer, and their prices are likely cheaper than Epic since their accessories are cheaper as well. Alexa is eating a substantial chunk of Epic rentals EVERYWHERE and the reasons for that are manyfold, but if anything, I'm sure that Epic rentals will increase after the price drop, not decrease. Yes, you may make less money per rental but most likely you'll rent your camera more times, more days per single rental. I know that Epic rentals dropped by $300 per day, I would easily rent Epics for multi day shots instead of just one or two. And so would a lot of people. Everybody prefers to keep the gear longer instead of shorter, it is a safety pad to have gear longer in case is needed, or in the case of independent film makers, where time and salaries are not that important as rental fees, so they can play and experiment longer. This is not an assumption, I've seen it. Ever since we dropped prices on our HD packages, we get a LOT more days per rental, making more money altogether.

This is an opportunity, not a slap on the face or a death sentence. As long as you don't keep thinking what you will be able to sell your camera for in 2 years, and just focus on making the present as productive as you can, day by day, the future will likely take care of itself. And in two years time, why sell your camera? Keep it, keep renting it, keep making money from it, even if you rent it so cheap that you undercut the HDSLR renters. Who cares, it is money that continues to go in your pocket. I am still making lots of money out of my EX-1s, yes, the ones selling for 50% less after "only" 5 years. I figured out ways to keep them productive, so for the life of me, I cannot see how you could not manage to make an Epic productive, even if to do so, you need to break or stretch the time frame of a business model you hoped would work one way but hasn't. You still have the camera, it still kicks royal ass, and people still need to rent cameras. What's missing from this picture, resale figures 2 years down the road? Again, why not worry about that when the time comes and keep at it now?

Then again, if the price cut is not really drastic, this is all nothing but a bunch of noise and smoke...

 

[Elsie N]

In lieu of the recent Sony announcement and the general situation, the first thing I have to say is that I truly hope the price cut is SIGNIFICANT, as in, Epic X selling for under $20K, anything higher than that and this move, if it is a move at all on RED's part and not just a regular adjustment, won't really make that much of a difference one way or another.

I feel for, and understand very well, the points made by all the independent/small rental house operators, but then, Epic going down in price won't be the proverbial nail in their coffin. First of all, running a small rental is akin to playing with fire. Having a business model to follow is all well, but the truth we have learned from these uncertain times is that business models can be flipped on their belly at any time without warning. The only people that really can survive in the rental business are the big houses, and it is not because they have lots of everything and can accommodate more renters, which helps, it is simply they have big, fat customers in the shape of TV shows, commercial and PR firms and the occasional film production. Those always rent from big players, not the guy with 1 or 2 Epics. I am a small operator, but I rent out complete packages not gear. We specialize on underwater production, but when people come to us, I don't itemize camera, lenses, etc, etc. We offer a package with camera, glass, lights, and other specialty gear which is just as important underwater, such as scooters to achieve long moving shots, or divers with the skillset to operate cameras in very deep water, etc, etc. We only ask our clients if they want HD or 4K for deliverables, and I may well make that decision for them given the constraints the particular shot requires, basically telling them that "this is possible but not that" They don't come to us because of the camera we use but for a package that is far more rounded than that. I know this model is very specific to underwater production, but someway, somehow, every small owner/renter should try to do that, to offer a package whose whole value is bigger than the sum of its components. We have managed to extrapolate that recipe to the topside shots we do. The important things is to stay busy, to work, for your gear not to collect dust and your people not to be idle, so we don't follow depreciation formulas and whatnot, choosing instead to keep all of our gear working and generating income even if the numbers don't make sense. We have steadicams, dollies, cranes and sliders, and more often than not, we rent out whole kits that include most of that stuff. On some shots we make more, on others less, but at the end of the year, we always break far above even, if following typical depreciation formulas. And no, we don't send out people and gear for $200-300 per day. We always offer a package that, as a whole, is extremely attractive, but we never undersell ourselves. I guess it would be more difficult to do that if you have limited gear, like a camera, two batteries and 1-2 lenses. But there are always ways to keep generating income, so long as our sights stay on the bigger picture and not the feasibility or not of job by job.

Lastly, the reason most Epic owners loose rentals is mostly because at that level, there is increasing competition. Sony and Canon have tons of cameras to offer, and their prices are likely cheaper than Epic since their accessories are cheaper as well. Alexa is eating a substantial chunk of Epic rentals EVERYWHERE and the reasons for that are manyfold, but if anything, I'm sure that Epic rentals will increase after the price drop, not decrease. Yes, you may make less money per rental but most likely you'll rent your camera more times, more days per single rental. I know that Epic rentals dropped by $300 per day, I would easily rent Epics for multi day shots instead of just one or two. And so would a lot of people. Everybody prefers to keep the gear longer instead of shorter, it is a safety pad to have gear longer in case is needed, or in the case of independent film makers, where time and salaries are not that important as rental fees, so they can play and experiment longer. This is not an assumption, I've seen it. Ever since we dropped prices on our HD packages, we get a LOT more days per rental, making more money altogether.

This is an opportunity, not a slap on the face or a death sentence. As long as you don't keep thinking what you will be able to sell your camera for in 2 years, and just focus on making the present as productive as you can, day by day, the future will likely take care of itself. And in two years time, why sell your camera? Keep it, keep renting it, keep making money from it, even if you rent it so cheap that you undercut the HDSLR renters. Who cares, it is money that continues to go in your pocket. I am still making lots of money out of my EX-1s, yes, the ones selling for 50% less after "only" 5 years. I figured out ways to keep them productive, so for the life of me, I cannot see how you could not manage to make an Epic productive, even if to do so, you need to break or stretch the time frame of a business model you hoped would work one way but hasn't. You still have the camera, it still kicks royal ass, and people still need to rent cameras. What's missing from this picture, resale figures 2 years down the road? Again, why not worry about that when the time comes and keep at it now?

Then again, if the price cut is not really drastic, this is all nothing but a bunch of noise and smoke...

The voice of experience and reason.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

SONY has some things on its side. So does RED. It'll be a battle royale, and I hope RED wins.

no, it's us who's going to win,
and the harder they fight the better for all of us

 

[Brandon J.F.]

In lieu of the recent Sony announcement and the general situation, the first thing I have to say is that I truly hope the price cut is SIGNIFICANT, as in, Epic X selling for under $20K...

I would not be surprised at all if it's around there based on the comments I've read here from Jim. We'll know tomorrow... It's going to be an exciting day.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

The voice of experience and reason.

...and I made my paragraphs shorter not to infuriate you

 

[Elsie N]

...and I made my paragraphs shorter not to infuriate you

Heh, heh...

 

[Adam Eden]

I think everyone should stop winging and start being competitive and make money. Having the best camera doesn't make you a good DOP, I have seen plenty of shit images from Alexa, Red, Sony ETC.

Even in the unlikely event that Jim sells Epics for even $5k who cares? The more Epics out there doesn't mean there are more good DOP's actually using them, it takes years of experience to learn the art of photography so if people came to you because of 4k that doesn't mean you were actually any good at your job.

With more and more cameras and other post production gear dropping in price this means YOU HAVE TO BE GOOD AT YOUR JOB or you will go broke.
Whats wrong with that?

I have 2 Epics and I paid full price for an M also. If EPIC becomes cheaper i will probably buy another one.

I have been around this industry for a long time and my first Avid Symphony cost me $250K. I have always owned 1 Symphony and 6 media composers, so when Avid offered me and everyone else in the world Avid Symphony for $1000 upgrade i was amazed and upgraded the rest of my suites.

I still have that $250K symphony, its in the back of my studio gathering dust.. Do i care? No... This is the world we live in.

 

[Thomas Koch]

With these announcements, I really hope a super small Pro Res recording module is coming... I'll even settle for the originally announced .h264 proxy recorder from 3 years ago. Just need a way to generate proxies on camera that doesn't cost more than a scarlet.

 

[Bob Gundu]

With these announcements, I really hope a super small Pro Res recording module is coming... I'll even settle for the originally announced .h264 proxy recorder from 3 years ago. Just need a way to generate proxies on camera that doesn't cost more than a scarlet.

It's coming.

 

[Gary Jones]

Just sitting in the Facebook chat with Sony and it appears they won't be announcing the price today. Back to Jim and Jarred to see who draws their line in the sand first.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I just wanted to say how happy I am about these new Sony cameras..... because I can buy my Epic.