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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Paul Harb said:
As a new owner of an Epic -M and soon to be another one( all purchased in the last week and a half so Ill get the lower price on both) Im not really affected by the price drop in the immediate, in fact Im affected in a positive way. Thats right, Im about to save money on both Epic's and yet I still agree with some concern here.

As someone who makes a living working on decently budgeted features, I TOTALLY understand peoples issues with this if it ends up being a huge drop. I was actually confused why any Red camera owner would want the monetary value of their camera to drop largely overnight until you notice the pattern of who are the loudest attackers on this board. Its clear what the motivations are.

Why does anyone have issue with what someone else( who has invested bigger money than you!) feels about something that makes their business harder. Their concerns are just as legit as your wanting it so low you can afford it, in fact some might argue they are more legit or at least more important to Red as a company.

As an editor, this reminds me of the democratization of NLE's and Apple's drastic shift to consumers at the expense of the small, but higher end market. Apple has decided consumers that replace their stuff every product cycle are their target and not a bunch of hard to deal with, demanding pro's that know what they need. I dont care what any fanboy tells you, nobody is using FCPX in hollywood for anything serious....its a joke amongst working editors and Apple has lost 10 years of good will of pros pushing FCP into the high end market.

All this said I dont think we have anything to worry about. I believe that Red is rearranging the product line to differentiate Dragon Epics from Epics. I think you might even see Scarlet go away and Red One. Epic "lite" and Epic Dragon is what im thinking..I really think Red wants to play with the big boys and have that prestige in the higher end circles, IMHO they NEED IT....its what makes Scarlet owners wanna buy a Scarlet in the first place.

I really think some of the people that are the loudest on here, who are just excited to be able to afford the camera Peter Jackson is using should be careful what you wish for....if the perception amongst higher end pros is that its a cheap camera, they will stop using and Red will be a consumer company.

I dont think anyone who owns an Alexa would want Arri to drastically lower the price just so more people can own an Arri...They would be flipping out worse than this...because Arri doesnt cater to anyone who cant afford at least 100,000 to buy in and these are business investments...maybe not for the scarlet owner but for the Epic owner, yes...or at least it should be.

Red needs to keep some separation for a higher end professional, Scarlet owners need this too...whether they realize it or not. And I believe Red knows this as well so Rob I believe we will breathe a sigh of relief Thurs.

Just my 2 cents, everyone should act a little more respectful on here I think to others situations.
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I agree.

You know, we switched to Premiere Pro from Avid simply because it was much better way to edit Red at that time. Even Premiere is regarded as "lessen than" software that is "not serious" - and we often keep a lid on what we're using to edit, we just try not to talk about it.

Perception doesn't just influence reality in Hollywood (and in non-Hollywood but still reasonable budget features) it is the only reality that matters - the only reality that gets you yay or nay, a deal/paycheck or not. It doesn't matter if you or I think it "should" be this way, it just is.

In this world (and in ads, high-end music videos, fashion - even more) "cheap" = "bad smell", much more often than not.

Because most producers do not really have a lot of tech knowledge, some do, but few, "cheap" also means worrisome, maybe unreliable, stress-inducing. The last thing they want is something more they need to worry about on their sets.

Let's put it this way, in my world (and the world of some other people here) if I came out and said "I have this camera that will cost you double the rental, but that is half as likely to fail or cause issues" they would say "Fine, always rent me that camera from now on".
 
Rob Ruffo said:
I agree.

You know, we switched to Premiere Pro from Avid simply because it was much better way to edit Red at that time. Even Premiere is regarded as "lessen than" software that is "not serious" - and we often keep a lid on what we're using to edit, we just try not to talk about it.

Perception doesn't just influence reality in Hollywood (and in non-Hollywood but still reasonable budget features) they are the only reality that matters - the only reality that gets you yay or nay, a deal/paycheck or not. It doesn't matter if you or I think it "should" be this way, it just is.

In this world (and in ads, high-end music videos, fashion - even more) "cheap" = "bad smell".
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Rob, maybe you could have your (soon-to-be) cheap-ass Epic chrome plated. That would really impress. '-)
 
Elsie N said:
Rob, maybe you could have your (soon-to-be) cheap-ass Epic chrome plated. That would really impress. '-)
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My world is tough. I often work 20 hour days. I'm not being an Elitist.

But to be successful you need to adapt to the thinking fo your clients, not be on some "salt of the earth" moral high horse.

Someone I know showed up to a DP job interview, for a fashion gig, wearing worn-out cargo pants. He really wanted the job, but felt "People shouldn't be superficial" He didn't get the job, and, I later heard, it was for that reason. But he gets to be a noble ugly-pants wearing man of the people. I wonder if that's worth it to him.

The business it what it is. We can accept it or pay dearly for not doing so.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
My world is tough. I often work 20 hour days. I'm not being an Elitist.

But to be successful you need to adapt to the thinking fo your clients, not be on some "salt of the earth" moral high horse.

Someone I know showed up to a DP job interview, for a fashion gig, wearing worn-out cargo pants. He really wanted the job, but felt "People shouldn't be superficial" He didn't get the job, and, I later heard, it was for that reason. But he gets to be a noble ugly-pants wearing man of the people. I wonder if that's worth it to him.

The business it what it is. We can accept it or pay dearly for not doing so.
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I concede your point.
 
Personally, I like FCP X. I think yes it is easy and probably to a single editor, it's all they need (unless they are heavy into CG and lots of filters and effects). To a edit house with multiple editors on the same scene, it might not be right. Motion isn't close to replacing After Effects. Still, I think FCP X has a place in Hollywood and will as new users once again overshadow the old dogs. It's the Avid versus FCP all over again back in the Dogma days.
 
My point was, with the utmost respect because I love what you do and I personally am not upset about the price drop. I just want to give a perspective...

those 90% dont have a page on your website to show off their work....the bigger stuff does. Why? Because IMHO, those 90% want to shoot on that camera because of that smaller percentage on your webpage.

Its the same reason Apple promotes what shows and once upon a time movies were cut with FCP. Its the reason schools decide to push one NLE or another, and as film is close to death and more people adapt Raw workflows the schools will push whatever aquisition format they think will give the students the best chance at moving up in....well usually features and long form narrative that have budgets.

Most people I know, besides maybe a few crazy (brilliant and lovable) artists dont do indies because they want to, they are trying to get to a place where they can do big budget stuff....the stuff being promoted as Shot On Red on the site.

Aspirational? YES YES YES!!!! And I love it!

Its been a fascinating thread and I know Red is gonna be around for a long time and going to continue to push the industry...even the big shots.

Jannard said:
90% of our customers are indie shooters. Yet The Hobbit was shot on EPIC. Aspirational. No?

Whatever you guys are disagreeing on... play nice.

Jim
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I feel like a lot of people are jumping the gun right now.
No one even know how big the price drop is going to be.

A lot of people are thinking it's going to be some $10K+ drop.
That would be mind blowing and I'd probably try to buy an Epic immediately.

But come on, reaalllly?

The concern is valid, but why not wait to see what the actual price is before getting legitimately mad about something like this.
 
Not unless Apple(which actually they seem to be doing now) puts back key features and terminology that they tried to tell a bunch of pros they didnt need anymore.

If they stop teaching FCP at schools what new users are you talking about? It was an uphill battle for people like me to get FCP to be considered in features and episodic TV and after 10 years of inroads they totally pulled the rug out from under us and tried at NAB to tell a bunch of grumpy, overworked pros that they were changing everything but we would love it.

We all know the backlash and exodus. Did they sell a ton of seats of FCPX...yep....but the damage (PERCEPTION) that they had done will take years and untold money to get back. They are making those moves now but it will be a long road, Apple has the resources possibly to ride it out till it comes back but their arrogance was a massive slap in the face and when anyone says Apple or FCP in my circles everyone rolls their eyes. Thats sad because macs were the defacto standard for creatives and now some are waiting to see if they need to jump platforms all together.


Wil Wong said:
Personally, I like FCP X. I think yes it is easy and probably to a single editor, it's all they need (unless they are heavy into CG and lots of filters and effects). To a edit house with multiple editors on the same scene, it might not be right. Motion isn't close to replacing After Effects. Still, I think FCP X has a place in Hollywood and will as new users once again overshadow the old dogs. It's the Avid versus FCP all over again back in the Dogma days.
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Whenever someone is entrenched in the inner circles of an industry, whether it is a company or an individual, they become tempted to stay where they are because doing so feels like it is protecting what they have. These days it's hard to be that way and survive. If you aren't willing to change, you risk becoming obsolete. RED has clearly pushed that agenda. They are the ones shifting the paradigm and making others face obsolescence. With FCP-X, Apple had the balls (and the money behind them) to throw away the "same old" and start from scratch. A lot of folks didn't like it; some were probably "afraid"to change, others had territory to protect, and some just didn't like it (although an awful lot of those who complained obviously never bothered to learn how to use it, judging from the erroneous "it can't do this" and "it can't do that" comments - when, often it COULD do those things). Hollywood is a big ship that can't turn slowly - producers aren't people who seek the thrill of any more risk than they have to take. Indies do whatever it takes - they have little to lose. In between, there are all sorts of folks in varying degrees of panic about how to stay viable. Technologically speaking, it's the wild west. Change is inevitable and coming fast. Some will enjoy the ride, some will just get nauseous. :huh:
 
Agree with everything you are saying except in terms of FCPX.

Apple screwed the pooch on that release and they pushed too hard. There are all sorts of things that I wont bother to list that FCPX cant do still even though APPLE quickly puts features back in that they tried to say we didnt need anymore. Why are they putting them back now? Because they pushed, but they pushed too hard and they crossed a line and are frantically in damage control now. Apple cares about the PERCEPTION of FCPX. They know kids wanna use FCP because professionals are using it. Thats important to them, they just have more resources than any corp in America and can make massive changes like that and possibly absord and outlast the backlash until they can remedy the F up. Maybe they knew it would hitmthe fan and it was a calculated risk they felt they could ride out, but dont be fooled into thinking APPLE doesnt care about PERCEPTION...it is everything to them.

Behind the scenes they are courting big post facilities in Hollywood to make sure they know they are not dropping that small high end market. Why? If they are so ballsy why do they care to quietly behind the scenes ask for those peoples advice on what it would take to have FCPX adopted again?

Like I said I really agree with a lot of what you are saying but it really isnt so black and white. It isnt the renegade indies vs the studio system. Its an ebb and flowing relationship between the low end and high end and everything in between like you said. We all push and strive to do and outdo each other in art and business. Its a crazy amazing industry.


Terry VerHaar said:
Whenever someone is entrenched in the inner circles of an industry, whether it is a company or an individual, they become tempted to stay where they are because doing so feels like it is protecting what they have. These days it's hard to be that way and survive. If you aren't willing to change, you risk becoming obsolete. RED has clearly pushed that agenda. They are the ones shifting the paradigm and making others face obsolescence. With FCP-X, Apple had the balls (and the money behind them) to throw away the "same old" and start from scratch. A lot of folks didn't like it; some were probably "afraid"to change, others had territory to protect, and some just didn't like it (although an awful lot of those who complained obviously never bothered to learn how to use it, judging from the erroneous "it can't do this" and "it can't do that" comments - when, often it COULD do those things). Hollywood is a big ship that can't turn slowly - producers aren't people who seek the thrill of any more risk than they have to take. Indies do whatever it takes - they have little to lose. In between, there are all sorts of folks in varying degrees of panic about how to stay viable. Technologically speaking, it's the wild west. Change is inevitable and coming fast. Some will enjoy the ride, some will just get nauseous. :huh:
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It's NEVER black and white - and I tried to suggest that by referring to the "in between." We don't have to agree about FCP-X because I know it doesn't work for a lot of folks but it works for me. I'm happy with just that.
 
Totally cool, and I wish and hope one day again it will work for me too.

Terry VerHaar said:
It's NEVER black and white - and I tried to suggest that by referring to the "in between." We don't have to agree about FCP-X because I know it doesn't work for a lot of folks but it works for me. I'm happy with just that.
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Nik Harper said:
I feel like a lot of people are jumping the gun right now.
No one even know how big the price drop is going to be.

A lot of people are thinking it's going to be some $10K+ drop.
That would be mind blowing and I'd probably try to buy an Epic immediately.

But come on, reaalllly?

The concern is valid, but why not wait to see what the actual price is before getting legitimately mad about something like this.
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What!!Only a $10k+ Drop!!


Sorry, too irresistible :-)
 
I didn't bother to read through all the pages, so, I may be posting slightly out of ignorance..

I understand both sides, and at the end of the day, it's all about timing.. This will hurt some people, and it will help others.

I think, what's bothering most "loyal customers", is the fact that Jim states the reduction is for the customer - when the truth of the matter is, this is guaranteed to have minor to harsh financial impact on not only the amortization of the gear already out there, but also with the rental market in general.

That being said, at first glance, the price reduction is really for the "new customer" that would potentially go to Sony or another competitor with whatever systems they are releasing. However, whatever he is "doing", while true, is mostly a business move made for the interest of RED, and may hurt some of us in the short-term, I would like to think that what he is going for is a long-term impact that will help people across the board. I think we can see from history that Red has already accomplished this at least once. It's not really fair for people to expect Red to change their business model once they've already reaped the benefits.

This is just business and more specifically Jim's philosophy of how it should be done.

I, and probably most other indie long-term owners of red, would like to see the savings of decreased production costs to be trickled down to the accessories as well rather than just hyper-inflation of the cameras. A cheaper epic does me more harm than good from what I can foresee, but a meizler module or 9" lcd or 512gb ssd, etc., are products I would still love to be able to afford - losing X amount of thousands of dollars over night is not going to help me purchase these accessories.

With that said, Jim, Jarred, and Red will do what they think is best, and they are for sure considering anything and everything that their decisions may impact. They're a smart company, I think we can rely on the fact that whatever decision they make, will be made in the best interests of the collective, and not certain people in certain markets.
 
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What we have here is people with dollers versus sense, but the people with the dollers don't want the cents.
 
Great intelligent post!

Aaron C Smith said:
I didn't bother to read through all the pages, so, I may be posting slightly out of ignorance..

I understand both sides, and at the end of the day, it's all about timing.. This will hurt some people, and it will help others.

I think, what's bothering most "loyal customers", is the fact that Jim states the reduction is for the customer - when the truth of the matter is, this is guaranteed to have minor to harsh financial impact on not only the amortization the gear already out there, but also with the rental market in general.

That being said, at first glance, the price reduction is really for the "new customer" that would potentially go to Sony or another competitor with whatever systems they are releasing. However, whatever he is "doing", while true, is mostly a business move made for the interest of RED, and may hurt some of us in the short-term, I would like to think that what he is going for is a long-term impact that will help people across the board. I think we can see from history that Red has already accomplished this at least once. It's not really fair for people to expect Red to change their business model once they've already reaped the benefits.

This is just business and more specifically Jim's philosophy of how it should be done.

I think, like most other indie long-term owners of red, would like to see the savings of decreased production costs to be trickled down to the accessories as well rather than just hyper-inflation of the cameras. A cheaper epic does me more harm than good from what I can foresee, but a meizler module or 9" lcd or 512gb ssd, etc., are products I would still love to be able to afford - losing X amount of thousands of dollars over night is not going to help me purchase these accessories.

With that said, Jim, Jarred, and Red will do what they think is best, and they are for sure considering anything and everything that their decisions may impact. They're a smart company, I think we an rely on the fact that whatever decision they make, will be made in the best interests of the collective, and not certain people in certain markets.
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Jarred Land said:
Safe to say that we have beaten this dead horse with a million different clubs, hammers and hockey sticks.

Thanks for toning down the sparing.
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Agreed Jarred! This just makes us look like losers.

Time this thread was closed or deleted.


:closed2ur0:
 
Here's the showcase:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-F5.shtml

The lense look neat. Wonder if they used Minolta technology for them. Competition won't let Red stand still (now that Red woke them up).
 
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