Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Wayne Morellini]

Am I being stupid here…

If Red drops the price point on the EPIC does this not mean that they will do greater volume?

I.e. is it not the case perhaps that they have greater capacity and efficiency?

In other words is it not possible that they actually make more money in the long run as they create a larger market by dropping the price. Yes the Unit price goes (somewhat) down but they sell twice as many cameras?

???

E

If it was me, I would have had a similar camera half the price (a quarter with even more outside sensor and parts) a fifth to a tenth of the parts, and a non competing Scarlet under $5k, even under $2k manufactured mainly in somewhere like China or India. Sony, Olympus, Nikon and Panasonic does it with consumer camera platforms that could be made into cinema cameras, for under $2k. There are ways to get around design theft by your manufacturer's employees. Manufacture parts at whatever firms and send for assembly at another, is one way, but my favoured is to manufacture leaving out key components that are manufactured in local trusted firms and assembled in house. In this way the most they get overseas is details or nonfunctional custom parts, or hulk. But I guess they are not manufacturing, but just assembling in house.

Since the Asian crash of the 90's, manufacturing profit margins has been in the doldrums, maybe they worked there way out of it. So, I would have thought you could have found low cost savings. So, I imagine again they are talking about assembling here.

The issue is, what happens when the Chinese start manufacturing 4k products for $4k, and cheap ones for $2k. And I am talking about nit just one, but 2, 5, or ten manufacturers. The market for pro cinema is small. I have just come up with much bigger market that can save them. Every big sporting club, normal commercial club, Casino, corporation, government department, big arts institute (we could have hundreds nationally here ) , will have a potential desire to own a 4k pro camera with simplified mode for their own use, that a professional can use in a professional mode for special productions. Those numbers make the cinema market look like blowing in the wind. So, yes, we need a full auto, manual select mode (use auto buttons selection to set focus, exposure etc, and release to go back to manual) simple step video recording mode (producing a rendered colored file by meta data that I put forward 8 years ago for on the spot picture setting on cinema cameras, so it can be directly edited into simple finished product) weather proofed ruggedised transfixed lens camera like a s16/43rds format Scarlet. Transfixed, comes with a removable fixed lens, that can be swapped out for conventional lens (see my previous design for swingable sensor mount allowing flush custom lens in the body length, and normal lens. Even just fixed, it is suitable for this purpose.

Lets try to get to 100 pages of comments about a price decrease we don't even have details on yet!

What about if they release Epic with Dragon for $1 less than it was before,.

Time to close this thread.

+1

It makes us look lie a bunch of losers.

 

[Christopher Barrett]

My Epic is an M. Totally worth every cent I paid for it. My next Epic will cost less. God bless the economic sliding scale of technology!

 

[Zach Swena]

Zach -- you Sir are a class act ;^)

-- peer

Hey, I didn't want to miss a chance to laugh at myself that was just to funny... Glad to bring a bit of humor to the thread.

 

[Peer Landa]

I like how your post is purely a play on words though. I am going to blame the grey on grey colors of the text editor and preview for my not catching the spelling mistake though.

Hey, I didn't want to miss a chance to laugh at myself that was just to funny... Glad to bring a bit of humor to the thread.

I am going to blame the grey on grey colors of the text editor and preview for not catching your spelling mistake -- i.e., 'too' vs. 'to'.


Just teasing ;^)


-- peer

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Speaking of exponential, I have been interested in establishing a community TV station, that can be repeated around the world. So, that is up to a thousand cameras for my country alone on the model I have been thinking of (calculations are based on one team o'er twenty thousand people, less cameras per twenty thousand in concentrated areas (capitals) and in poorer areas. As it is not really commercial, the camera's purchase does not have to be commercially justified. I am thinking of incorporating this under a more general local media services business I have cone up with. The business merely offers services to reduce there costs, etc. It is a system I came up with years ago for media, that I am revisiting.

 

[Zach Swena]

I am going to blame the grey on grey colors of the text editor and preview for not catching your spelling mistake -- i.e., 'too' vs. 'to'.


Just teasing ;^)


-- peer

lol, you got me again, I think it is time for me to go to bed...

 

[Jarred Land]

Safe to say that we have beaten this dead horse with a million different clubs, hammers and hockey sticks.

Thanks for toning down the sparing.

 

[Zac C]

Safe to say that we have beaten this dead horse with a million different clubs, hammers and hockey sticks.

Thanks for toning down the sparing.

Apparently we're all getting EPIC and Dragon upgrades for $2 and 39 cents... look at what you've started!

 

[Paul Harb]

As a new owner of an Epic -M and soon to be another one( all purchased in the last week and a half so Ill get the lower price on both) Im not really affected by the price drop in the immediate, in fact Im affected in a positive way. Thats right, Im about to save money on both Epic's and yet I still agree with some concern here.

As someone who makes a living working on decently budgeted features, I TOTALLY understand peoples issues with this if it ends up being a huge drop. I was actually confused why any Red camera owner would want the monetary value of their camera to drop largely overnight until you notice the pattern of who are the loudest attackers on this board. Its clear what the motivations are.

Why does anyone have issue with what someone else( who has invested bigger money than you!) feels about something that makes their business harder. Their concerns are just as legit as your wanting it so low you can afford it, in fact some might argue they are more legit or at least more important to Red as a company.

As an editor, this reminds me of the democratization of NLE's and Apple's drastic shift to consumers at the expense of the small, but higher end market. Apple has decided consumers that replace their stuff every product cycle are their target and not a bunch of hard to deal with, demanding pro's that know what they need. I dont care what any fanboy tells you, nobody is using FCPX in hollywood for anything serious....its a joke amongst working editors and Apple has lost 10 years of good will of pros pushing FCP into the high end market.

All this said I dont think we have anything to worry about. I believe that Red is rearranging the product line to differentiate Dragon Epics from Epics. I think you might even see Scarlet go away and Red One. Epic "lite" and Epic Dragon is what im thinking..I really think Red wants to play with the big boys and have that prestige in the higher end circles, IMHO they NEED IT....its what makes Scarlet owners wanna buy a Scarlet in the first place.

I really think some of the people that are the loudest on here, who are just excited to be able to afford the camera Peter Jackson is using should be careful what you wish for....if the perception amongst higher end pros is that its a cheap camera, they will stop using and Red will be a consumer company.

I dont think anyone who owns an Alexa would want Arri to drastically lower the price just so more people can own an Arri...They would be flipping out worse than this...because Arri doesnt cater to anyone who cant afford at least 100,000 to buy in and these are business investments...maybe not for the scarlet owner but for the Epic owner, yes...or at least it should be.

Red needs to keep some separation for a higher end professional, Scarlet owners need this too...whether they realize it or not. And I believe Red knows this as well so Rob I believe we will breathe a sigh of relief Thurs.

Just my 2 cents, everyone should act a little more respectful on here I think to others situations.

 

[Sergio Perez]

My 2 cents,

When I invested in an Epic, I invested in much more than the camera in itself. I invested in a company that is different than all the others where I have invested before.

When I invested on the Epic, I invested in user oriented service. In immediate and responsive communication in case anything happened during production. I invested in a company that is constantly bringing new updates to the camera, by adding features, and also by improving workflow as soon as they see feasible. Right now I have on order a USB3 off loader. I'm sure in the near future I'll have a thunderbolt or even faster connection support gear designed to make my Red Workflow even better. Only weeks after its release, I had an update on Redcine X that supported my Macbook Pro Reitna display. Red even made the Red Rocket possible to work with external boxes for mobile workstations. transcoding now to 4K Prores is even faster than using compressor or Log and Transfer to convert H264 files to normal 1080p prores files, on the go. I had a battery charger failure, and, with that, no questions asked, I just returned it and will get it back, soon.

Next week I'm going to Reducation in Hong-Kong, with a fellow Reduser from Macau. We are really looking forward to meeting Ted and the rest of the gang to learn even more the workflow and any special tips on the process. Bottom line? Red looks after its costumers. They have my business. As long as this excellence and uniqueness keeps going, nothing else compares. And I'll be here for the Dragon update and beyond!

Keep going, team Red!

 

[Elsie N]

As a new owner of an Epic -M and soon to be another one( all purchased in the last week and a half so Ill get the lower price on both) Im not really affected by the price drop in the immediate, in fact Im affected in a positive way. Thats right, Im about to save money on both Epic's and yet I still agree with some concern here.

As someone who makes a living working on decently budgeted features, I TOTALLY understand peoples issues with this if it ends up being a huge drop. I was actually confused why any Red camera owner would want the monetary value of their camera to drop largely overnight until you notice the pattern of who are the loudest attackers on this board. Its clear what the motivations are.

Why does anyone have issue with what someone else( who has invested bigger money than you!) feels about something that makes their business harder. Their concerns are just as legit as your wanting it so low you can afford it, in fact some might argue they are more legit or at least more important to Red as a company.

As an editor, this reminds me of the democratization of NLE's and Apple's drastic shift to consumers at the expense of the small, but higher end market. Apple has decided consumers that replace their stuff every product cycle are their target and not a bunch of hard to deal with, demanding pro's that know what they need. I dont care what any fanboy tells you, nobody is using FCPX in hollywood for anything serious....its a joke amongst working editors and Apple has lost 10 years of good will of pros pushing FCP into the high end market.

All this said I dont think we have anything to worry about. I believe that Red is rearranging the product line to differentiate Dragon Epics from Epics. I think you might even see Scarlet go away and Red One. Epic "lite" and Epic Dragon is what im thinking..I really think Red wants to play with the big boys and have that prestige in the higher end circles, IMHO they NEED IT....its what makes Scarlet owners wanna buy a Scarlet in the first place.

I really think some of the people that are the loudest on here, who are just excited to be able to afford the camera Peter Jackson is using should be careful what you wish for....if the perception amongst higher end pros is that its a cheap camera, they will stop using and Red will be a consumer company.

I dont think anyone who owns an Alexa would want Arri to drastically lower the price just so more people can own an Arri...They would be flipping out worse than this...because Arri doesnt cater to anyone who cant afford at least 100,000 to buy in and these are business investments...maybe not for the scarlet owner but for the Epic owner, yes...or at least it should be.

Red needs to keep some separation for a higher end professional, Scarlet owners need this too...whether they realize it or not. And I believe Red knows this as well so Rob I believe we will breathe a sigh of relief Thurs.

Just my 2 cents, everyone should act a little more respectful on here I think to others situations.

If we were talking fine automobiles or flawless diamonds, I might agree that keeping the price artificially high would be preferable to the rich. But the Epic is a tool and people who understand tools don't buy them as status symbols. They buy them because they get the job done. The reputation for how well that tool performs is what keeps others buying the tool. If the price is within reach of more tool pushers, more of them will buy based on reputation. My two bits. In the world outside of Hollywood, all is not glitz and glamour.

 

[Paul Harb]

Glitz and glamour??? Rich?? Work inside Hollywood isnt glitz and glamour either, its hard work ,sacrifice and business.

Its obvious you totally missed my point, thats ok.

If we were talking fine automobiles or flawless diamonds, I might agree that keeping the price artificially high would be preferable to the rich. But the Epic is a tool and people who understand tools don't buy them as status symbols. They buy them because they get the job done. The reputation for how well that tool performs is what keeps others buying the tool. If the price is within reach of more tool pushers, more of them will buy based on reputation. My two bits. In the world outside of Hollywood, all is not glitz and glamour.

 

[Elsie N]

... if it ends up being a huge drop. I was actually confused why any Red camera owner would want the monetary value of their camera to drop largely overnight until you notice the pattern of who are the loudest attackers on this board. Its clear what the motivations are.
....if the perception amongst higher end pros is that its a cheap camera, they will stop using and Red will be a consumer company.

Just my 2 cents, everyone should act a little more respectful on here I think to others situations.

Paul, Sorry if I missed the point you wanted me to get. But the points of your post I left above, especially the highlighted part are the ones that stuck out to me. With respect, of course.

 

[Eric Lange]

Safe to say that we have beaten this dead horse with a million different clubs, hammers and hockey sticks.

Thanks for toning down the sparing.

Yes but if we all beat a plurality of equines with said percussive devices .. do we not end up with Shakespeare’s Hamlet.. or some other masterwork…? or is that supposed to be an infinity of Monkey’s with typewriters…?

Or is it that we should be beating an infinity of monkeys with typewrites to get Shakespeare’s Hamlet.. I was never clear on that…

Hmmm…

Well… (cough… cough)… isn’t It cool that Epic and REDRAW are marching their way to becoming a “mature” platform ... Go RED!

 

[Elsie N]

Yes but if we all beat a plurality of equines with said percussive devices .. do we not end up with Shakespeare’s Hamlet.. or some other masterwork…? or is that supposed to be an infinity of Monkey’s with typewriters…?

Hmmm…

Well… (cough… cough)… isn’t It cool that Epic and REDRAW are marching their way to becoming a “mature” platform

I think scientists have concluded that the monkeys would not actually finish typing War and Peace due to the location of the keys on the keyboard. I offer this tidbit with respect, of course. '-)

 

[Paul Harb]

I stand by that statement. Its ok if you disagree but not sure snide remarks trying to paint me as an elitist is needed to say you dont agree. Just disagree and state why without passive aggressively throwing jabs. Before I worked in features I payed my dues in indy and live event production so Im not some white glover.

If I was so off base why does Red spend any time promoting what big directors are using Red cameras??? They have a page on their website called SHOT ON RED. Seems to me they think its important for potential customers to know Hollywood is using their camera. why?

Paul, Sorry if I missed the point you wanted me to get. But the points of your post I left above, especially the highlighted part are the ones that stuck out to me. With respect, of course.

 

[Jannard]

90% of our customers are indie shooters. Yet The Hobbit was shot on EPIC. Aspirational. No?

Whatever you guys are disagreeing on... play nice.

Jim

 

[Paul Harb]

Hi Jim Nice to meet you.

90% of our customers are indie shooters. Yet The Hobbit was shot on EPIC. Aspirational. No?

Whatever you guys are disagreeing on... play nice.

Jim

 

[Elsie N]

I stand by that statement. Its ok if you disagree but not sure snide remarks trying to paint me as an elitist is needed to say you dont agree. Just disagree and state why without passive aggressively throwing jabs. Before I worked in features I payed my dues in indy and live event production so Im not some white glover.

If I was so off base why does Red spend any time promoting what big directors are using Red cameras??? They have a page on their website called SHOT ON RED. Seems to me they think its important for potential customers to know Hollywood is using their camera. why?

I defer to Jim's statement, making both our points. (See Jim, we're playing nice)

 

[Jack Cooper]

Calling Mark back to Earth.
Not all price reductions are good for consumer. Ever heard predatory pricing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_dumping

Jake, just to hi-jack the thread a bit with a bit of an economic's lesson in response to your post. In the context to your link, predatory pricing "normally" occurs in "oligopolistic" markets. One could argue that the number of camera suppliers globally, really points to those characteristics of a "monopolistically competitive" market (not to be confused with "monopolies".

As such, it would be VERY unlikely (insert sarcasm here) that an Epic price reduction would play out in a scenario to drive Sony, Arri, JVC, BM, Panasonic (etc) out of business. In fact, we see few real world examples of predatory pricing in today's global markets. The link you cited itself states...the U.S. Supreme Court has set high hurdles to antitrust claims based on a predatory pricing theory.

Hurray for Jim and the Red team...Discount to their heart's content, those buyers sure won't be complaining...

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Cheers