Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Rob Ruffo]

ROB! I'VE GOT THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEM!!! Sell your camera and become a renter because as you say, rental prices will go down. So you see, if RED lowers the price of the Epic, you win as a renter and new customers win as renters because with the lower price they can rent their cameras out cheaper.

Why didn't I see this before.

It id not worth very much used right now, now is it. We'll see after the 31st.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Tom assassinated his own character many times on these pages by being disrespectful and unprofessional to people simply voicing their opinions to Red. I only stated that I dont care for his insults, that is not even remotely insulting or "character assasination", you are reaching. So feel free to stand by Tom but don't get upset if you are thrown in the same category as him.

Lastly, judging by your "about me" link, it seems that the nature of your business is completely different than mine, it's understandable that you are not affected and don't understand why and how others are.

For those arguing that everything in electronics change, including price, that is certainly true but the hyper devaluation of everything Red is surpassing any other camera or computer. Most Red products are worth 1/4 of its price as soon as they leave the box they arrived in. This includes even lenses. I don't dry rent my gear and my day rate is the same as its always been but with an only 7 months old Epic that will devaluate over night along with all the other gear that's barely left its Red boxes and that you can buy for peanuts these days, there is no doubt that the rates, resale as well as the demand will suffer. New buyers rejoice, old buyers suffer.
All I'm saying is that Red products seem to go obsolete faster then any other piece of tech I own. It's great that the products are improving but if you are an owner/operator...... good luck with that. It's a bottomless money pit.

I'd be out of here or of this business, a long time ago, if I wouldn't fully understand your concern. As well, the group you belong. I just think it is not RED's fault. On the contrary.

I remember an episode of 2001 when still in the film school after a workshop in HDCAM I was trying to split the participation of a F900 in 52 equal parts to take for the members of the same cooperative to start up among colleagues. And a professor of the cinematography department tried to pervert the plans throwing the $400,000 mark (in obvious misinformation among his own students) as the necessary budget we would need in order to comply what later RED ONE came to take place ;-)

We need RED digital cinema company to prosper. To be alive in this market is tough, for everyone... who dares to deny the facts? For the manufacturers, for the type of clientele you represent. Yes, the trend is each day closer to everyone to own a digital motion picture camera, such as those damned HDSLR hybrid are too -- we are finishing now a feature movie shot in NZ/Slovenia/Montenegro/Russia with a couple of them.

Rentals need to adapt to these market circumstances. There's a lot where you can beat the worst expectations such as skilled technical services, combo of multiple gear, etc. That's what can make the whole difference. It is wise never say that God Himself cannot sink a camera company like RED. Although the market will never be adverse enough if who is at the command of the ship will put the helmet in the right second. Yes, because like an asset floating along a trading day, in seconds everything can go down. We live hard times for estimates. No need for other than the best decision in the right timing. Jim/Jarred know very well what they're doing. For some reason me and many others are with them. So? We like to see them to act.

I concur there are distinct kind of customers. But even here, there's always an hierarchy dictated by the coldness of the numbers. May RED get a solution to help you out such as those which benefited the early adopters. It is up to them. But they don't owe nothing to anyone, and there's nothing that really needs to be done unless to be in position to get the best share of the cake. Read: market. High-end protection is a mistake, in my opinion. I vividly salute this move.

On the rest, it seems Martin already said everything on topic. So do I.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

The reason that nobody but few people bother to express their concerns here are idiotic personal insults like this. It's sad that this also includes moderators.

Selfish agendas? How about your selfish agenda? You made money on your Epics by buying them early and selling them early. You made your money and you will made more now.
I'm not in your kind of business, never will be. So speak for yourself and let others give their perspective. The incessant desire to put people down because they have an opposing point of view puzzles me. Sheesh.

Im not putting anyone down. Im calling a spade a spade and think all this passive aggressive posturing by people who are struggling to recoup their investment, and BLAMING that on RED pricing, is just plain WRONG.
Thats not a personal attack. You guys are affecting my selfish agenda... correct, so Im voicing my opinion, like Rob is voicing his. You seem to keep attacking Tom Lowe. Why?

New flash. Red isnt going to do what's best for you or me. They will do whats best for RED and the future. Im annoyed by Rob's posting veiled threats like "if the price is too low Im going to...become a customer of "insert competitor" here.
Call me crazy but I find it rude and I was "kidding". I dont want anyone to get hurt anymore than RED does. BUT your being hurt by a price cut is NOT A REASON not to discount. They know its inevitable.
You absolutely have a right to be disappointed. You have a right to try and influence a smaller discount. I reserve the same right to influence a large as possible one. But do please stop attacking Tom Lowe.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

...people who are struggling to recoup their investment, and BLAMING that on RED pricing...

Well, we don't know yet. The price reductions can be rather minor compared to some of the fear scenarios

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Red has always looked to the future, and you don't need a crystal ball to recognize that camera technology isn't standing still. It's pretty obvious that the next cycle of releases are going to flood the image capture market with cheaper high quality alternatives. Is the new GoPro Hero 3 that shoots 2.7K a direct competitor? Of course not, but next year's Hero 4 is going to shoot 4K, with a $399 price tag. Is the Black Magic camera in the same ballpark as the Epic? Nope - but next year's BM Camera 2, will be a lot closer - for a lot less money. The 2013-14 iterations of Canon, Sony, Panasonic and Nikon cameras will deliver higher resolution, light sensitivity, and dynamic range - guaranteed - and lots of people are already using the current, less capable models from said companies as alternatives. There's the Alexa, which only seems to be out-competing Red in certain markets due to the false perception that it is easier to post. That competition is going to tighten up when they can claim that they've got comparable resolution with the new version. We don't even have to get into the inevitable rise of copycat bandwagon jumping companies that are looking at Red's success and developing cheaper 4K camera systems. What do the couple of people vociferously complaining think the landscape is going to be like in three short years? I've been following Red's development since a plywood box with a lens attached to it popped up on DVXuser and we saw the first frames of milk girls and funny cars, and I've been lucky enough to get hundreds of days of shooting and editing Epic footage. One of the major tenets of the original Red philosophy was the democratization of the medium, which has indeed come to pass, as I can attest to personally. I would not be doing what I am today if it wasn't for Jim and Jarred and the dedicated people working for Red. Your instincts and tactics have gotten you this far, and have affected a sea-change in the industry, and I hope you are not too disheartened by people who have trouble looking to the future. Keep Calm and Carry On.

+1

I could not agree more with the sentiment expressed here. I would not have had many of the recent opportunities I have been fortunate to enjoy, if not for the competition that has risen around the development of higher resolution acquisition. There is a lot of talent in the world, there always has been, but now it is more difficult for a studio/production company to ignore it.

I have been SUPER lucky to rent RED cameras and employ them within my FX pipeline since their initial release. I have always wanted to own one, but financially, the decision was not a viable. So, I continue to rent for my productions.

Maybe that will be changing soon, and for that, I cannot thank you guys enough. I've been wanting to join the community of RED owners for a long time, and have resisted purchasing from other manufacturers over the years because their offerings were never what they should have been.

When the technology arrived, RED was willing to package it in innovative ways and deliver what pro customers wanted. Where the tech didn't exist -- they created it. As such, RED has literally created the most uncompromising camera system, I have ever seen. And further, the company listens to us even when we're assholes and lack tact or patience. And they respond with honesty and altruism in what I believe is a sincere attempt to help others. Jim understands the secret to success and wealth. While he is a definitely a consummate businessman, he is not driven by avarice. In my limited introduction to the man, I saw it with my own eyes -- he's doing something he loves and wanting to share it with others. Period. Any price savings, or manufacturing efficiencies that have been found will only ensure the cameras are more available, and relevant, as the industry continues marching forward.

Simply because someone owns an EPIC package doesn't mean they are more likely to rent it out, or secure more work for it, than anyone else. At the end of day, things like experience, your reputation, your network and a host of other intangibles will likely play a greater role in your ability to recoup your investment. At the root of it all, I don't think early purchasers will see their investments squandered, nor do I think they will be severely affected in the long run.

All this is pure speculation, anyway. This debate will seem silly when we discover a $500 reduction at the heart of Jim's initial post.

 

[Milan Spasic]

I'd be out of here or of this business, a long time ago, if I wouldn't fully understand your concern. As well, the group you belong. I just think it is not RED's fault. On the contrary.

We need RED to prosper. To be alive in this market is tough, for everyone... who dares to deny the facts? For the manufacturers, for the type of clientele you represent. Yes, the trend is each day closer to everyone to own a digital motion picture camera, such as the HDSLR hybrid are too. Rentals need to adapt to these market circumstances. There's a lot where you can beat the worst expectations such as skilled technical services, combo of multiple gear, etc. That's what can make the whole difference. It is wise never say that God Himself cannot sink a camera company like RED. Although the market will never be adverse enough if who is at the command of the ship will put the helmet in the right second. Yes, because like an asset floating along a trading day, in seconds everything can go down. We live hard times for estimates. No need for other than the best decision in the right timing. Jim/Jarred know very well what they're doing.

I concur there are distinct kind of customers. But even here, there's always an hierarchy dictated by the coldness of the numbers. May RED get a solution to help you out such as those which benefited the early adopters. It is up to them. But they don't owe nothing to anyone, and there's nothing that really needs to be done unless to be in position to get the best share of the cake. High-end protection is a mistake, in my opinion. I vividly salute this move.

On the rest, it seems Martin already said everything on topic. So do I.

There's nothing much I don't agree here, I simply stated how it will affect some of us. It's frustrating to keep pouring money into gear that's holding it's value for only a few months at the most.

Of course it's in my and every Reduser's interest for Red to prosper, I would not wish otherwise. But I remain sceptical about whether this move is neccessary for Red's survival.
It seems more like a switch from professional to prosumer market, only Jim knows why.

 

[Eric Lange]

We plan to amortize over 1.5 years, selling at 40% retail at end of cycle. So 60% of +- 40K for the cam itself (with media and etc.)over 1.5 years - 20K a year - to break even. So far we have had our Epic since may and a working package since mid-June- 0.4 years and have indeed made less than 10K in rentals during that time (of the cam itself - Amber and I have other gear here, and of course sell our time - but we could do that without owning the Epic). Breaking even is actually losing money because there are insurance costs to be added to that, along with opportunity loss (traditionally this is counted as 15% a year) on the 40K which we could have invested in something else. You do hope for profit in these things. Not just arriving at zero. Otherwise you are working serving customers and answering questions, preparing outgoing kits, etc as well as maintaining and storing your gear for free. I already volunteer at various charities with all the time I can afford for that.

Already my business plan is not doing that well - but not tragic. Montreal has very much become an Alexa town, for whatever reason, and we have had to rent it even for our own shoots because producers demand it, however foolish they may be. Last year the MX did far better.

That’s an interesting/difficult conundrum.

As the Americans say, what is your “Value Proposition….”?

At the time did you think.. well this will save us money on rentals.. or did you think that owning the Epic effectively increased your own perceived “value” of what you bring to the customer.

There are many intangibles that are hard to put a price tag on… Did owning an Epic allow you to develop your craft in a more complete and unconstrained way?

For example if one only rents then one is always against deadlines and it’s hard to be able to justify time to improve one’s technique… or be at liberty to hone ones craft and experiment a bit.

Just taking a longer term view as to what owning an Epic (for a while) has brought to you…

Sounds like you have command of the workflow and “instrument” and maybe… indeed sell it?

I understand you are possibly between a rock and a hard place.

Best of luck (would be interested ultimately how things turn out or work out for you).

Best Regards,

Eric

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

In the long term. I need RED to be successful. RED lead the way to 4k. Made it popular.. I am not blind (Just deaf) RED is not the only 4k camera out there anymore.. But they fully intend to be the best and last company standing. The price drop is smart. Can it hurt some businesses who bought their cameras recently. Maybe. And I am sorry about that. But it's done. The decision was made long before the post. Feel free to be upset, and complain, but nothing will change. We are finding out about something that has already happened. No sense yelling at the rain too much. We are not the only ones taking a hit. RED is lowering their prices, they will make less. I'm sure there are a number of motivations for this, just just one.

Are the cameras worth less? Yes, but there are a number of things affecting their value right now, not just their prices.

I am kind of surprised no one saw this coming. I mean it has too.. How long has EPIC been out? Any other camera company would be getting ready to announce the NEXT MODEL. And our cameras would be dropping in value even more. But with RED, they do not intend to do that business model, so SOMETHING has to give.. They just cannot stay frozen in time with the same unit at the same price when it gets cheaper and cheaper to make.

Ok well enough of this. I gotta go

 

[Charlie_Grinnell]

My opinion: I bought an M and it has: (insert checkmarks beside these)

1. Taught me stuff (CHECK)
2. Furthered my career (CHECK)
3. Allowed me to meet awesome people (CHECK)
4. Allowed me to make beautiful images for clients and myself

This camera made my art/life/career/knowledge better, yes I may not be able to sell my camera to someone for as much now, but my camera is paid off and I can't put a value on the people I have been able to meet and how having this thing has fast tracked my career. I am not going to be a Red Fanboy and say "ZOMG Thanks RED" like some people are/have done in the past, but through everything Red has remained fair and that is an admirable trait in a company.

Carry on.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Time to close this thread.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Interesting wording, like an idiot, that is how I'll feel aswell when I'm going to explain to the board of our company why I invested in these cameras on the premise that they were a rather safe investment, if it turns out that their value has deflated over night. The Scarlet does not matter if it's given away for free, but the Epic is a pretty darn expensive piece of equipment.

If you're looking for a "safe" investment, you don't have to be an analyst to see investing in camera tech presents more risk these days. The real "investment" is in glass, or how you're using the camera -- for example, shooting ten specs for NatGeo back to back. Rental costs in a situation like that would likely exceed the purchase cost. And once you're done with principal photography, you could always sell the gear into the rental market if you found NatGeo thought you sucked.

The answer of cost-effectiveness should be pretty evident, and if there's any question, renting is likely the better option.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

That’s an interesting/difficult conundrum.

As the Americans say, what is your “Value Proposition….”?

At the time did you think.. well this will save us money on rentals.. or did you think that owning the Epic effectively increased your own perceived “value” of what you bring to the customer.

There are many intangibles that are hard to put a price tag on… Did owning an Epic allow you to develop your craft in a more complete and unconstrained way?

For example if one only rents then one is always against deadlines and it’s hard to be able to justify time to improve one’s technique… or be at liberty to hone ones craft and experiment a bit.

Just taking a longer term view as to what owning an Epic (for a while) has brought to you…

Sounds like you have command of the workflow and “instrument” and maybe… indeed sell it?

I understand you are possibly between a rock and a hard place.

Best of luck (would be interested ultimately how things turn out or work out for you).

Best Regards,

Eric

This is a good question that is important to answer - so I'll make an exception my promise to quit posting ion this thread.

I did, in fact think "This will save us money on rentals, and I'll rent to a few other people as well." This has only produced 8.5K of revenue so far (between saved and charged to others) (to be clear, for the cam+media+etc. kit - we rent other things, we charge for our time as DP, Steadicam, etc.)

I don't have time to shoot "for fun" - and besides, shooting the way we do takes a tie-in and full crew - it would cost a fortune. The camera mostly stays in the case unless we are hired by someone. So no, owning vs renting it did not affect my learning. If I were a beginner it would have, but then I could have and would have bought a used MX to learn framing and so on.

My clients see our reels and hear what other people say about what it's like to work with us. That's what gets us work. Period. They do not really care that we own an Epic or not, or what we own in general, as long as we or someone else can get them a reasonable deal on rentals on the budget - which we could anyway by calling up other owners.

The only exception to this, something you need to own to get work using - because you have to practice many days a week and practicing does not require crew - is a Steadicam. But you can just put any camera on there and add some weights to practice your moves.

 

[Will Wernick]

Lets try to get to 100 pages of comments about a price decrease we don't even have details on yet! YAY!

 

[Domenic Barbero]

Lets try to get to 100 pages of comments about a price decrease we don't even have details on yet! YAY!

+1 will. lol

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about this... I'm in the unfortunate and untimely position of *having* to sell my cameras because I'm in the process of a divorce. As an unfortunately state of the industry here in Utah, in particular, the value of the Epic has never met its potential. I consistently rent my MX package 3-to-1 times over my Epic. In fact, the MX is paying for the EPIC right now. Why? Alexa. We have 6 feature films shooting in Utah right now, they are all shooting Alexa's. The handful of Epic owners in the state who are being successful are only able to cover their expenses by "giving away" the camera, when they hire-out post or DIT services from the owning individual. Yeah, this sucks, because I'm selling my gear to basic cover the investment, and try and net me a very small profit so I can invest in a BM or a 5D or something to continue making movies, but depending on how this settles out, I suspect I'm going on be on the hook for a few grand, out of my own pocket, even after the camera's are sold.

I welcome the price drop, and RED's transparency as much as the next guy. But, I do question whether this was RED's smartest move. It definitely has the potential to suck ass for me, but I'm realize that's not RED's fault. I think I'd rather see a small price drop, distributed across all components, and take the extra profits (which RED deserves) and put that into the cost of developing future cameras and accessories ultimately reducing the costs of future products, rather than putting a bullet through the collective value of the existing product.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Lets try to get to 100 pages of comments about a price decrease we don't even have details on yet! YAY!

+1


I find epic to be the most amazing camera available today even if the price was twice as high it's been a great investment. It makes it possible for us to shoot as much as we want, the know how around the shop grows tremendously and the camera also brings in money as a rental. But I would never ever think of making a living renting out one camera. That would be just as tough as making a living from renting out one car... I never heard of such business idea doing well. Remember that both the price and the availability for the epic is about at the same level as for cars....

Example: The other day I was looking for a rental car in stockholm and had problems finding one, the same day I was over at one of the bigger camera rentals in town, they had 8 epics and even more scarlets on the shelf... So it is high in supply no doubt.

It's easy to understand that a lot of people have invested in a lot of epics and scarlets thinking they would rent like hot cakes. They actually are renting like hot cakes but there is so many people thinking the same thought: "I buy one and rent it out.." Before you go down that route, think again, would you buy a car and rent it out? Also would you have better use for a car than a camera when it does not rent

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

You are probably correct.. at least that is what the rental companies keep telling us.

Remember when we came on the scene there was no Alexa.

Apart from Broadcast cameras, There was not much of anything capable other than $200,000 cameras on their shelves. Quickly our little $17,500 R1 camera started to shoot some pretty big movies.. getting chosen over some very expensive alternatives. It had nothing to do with the cost of the camera... it had to do with the quality of the image. Rental companies liked it because it was cheap to get into and it still played along with all their lenses and support equipment that they make the real money off of.

We always have your best interest in mind.. really. Sometimes we take alot of flack for that.. because its not always what everyone else is doing. We made a camera that shot images that would stand up for years to come... because it was so obvious to see ( at least to us ) that 1080p wasn't enough. Finally, just a few weeks ago the new 4K Consumer standard was set. This consumer standard dictates everything all of us here do, if we like it or not. The new Spec that started specifically calls out a requirement that no upscaling is allowed. Its not a good idea to shoot in 1080p anymore.... even if you can still get away with it.

Making a 1080p camera is incredible easy.. we could of done it very quickly and made a ton of money. But I wouldn't of shot it... neither would Jim. Hell.. we tried that with the 3K Scarlet remember.. we got all the way up to right before shipping.. shot with it one day and realized that even 3K wasn't enough... and pulled the plug. Because it wasn't good enough. Not for us.. not for you.

We are passionate about making the best images we possibly can.. That's our job. We make it, put as low of a price tag as humanly possible on it, and then hand it over to you. You then go and find a way to make money with it. That's your job.

But allas.. these conversations get tiring. It seems like this always happens when we try to be generous.

We recieved shit from some people over our upgrade program that gave everyone full price trade ins on their cameras.. still can't believe that one.

Some people that only ended up paying 10k for their Epic through that trade in program inevitably now will bitch that something is going to happen to the rental rates they were getting for the last year based on a 35k camera.

Give people a mountain of gold and they will complain about needing to climb it. That's just the way it is I guess.

Dude. Haters gon' hate. Fcuk 'em. Ingrates.

Some of us get you guys. Keep doing you, and don't be discouraged by the people that don't get what you're doing.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Dude. Haters gon' hate. Fcuk 'em. Ingrates.

Some of us get you guys. Keep doing you, and don't be discouraged by the people that don't get what you're doing.

We're not haters, we're people with real $$ in the game with valid concerns, who have real respect for Red. Thinking for yourself and having concerns does not make you a hater.

 

[John semikian]

+1

I could not agree more with the sentiment expressed here. I would not have had many of the recent opportunities I have been fortunate to enjoy, if not for the competition that has risen around the development of higher resolution acquisition. There is a lot of talent in the world, there always has been, but now it is more difficult for a studio/production company to ignore it.

I have been SUPER lucky to rent RED cameras and employ them within my FX pipeline since their initial release. I have always wanted to own one, but financially, the decision was not a viable. So, I continue to rent for my productions.

I completely agree .. I want to finally buy my first EPIC. It's just about $10 or $12k too much for me. Lets got team RED make me the proud owner of one soon please.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Sooo, somehow fewer people are going to buy Epics because they are cheaper? And the people who do buy them are hobbyists or fools? Yeah, I've got much better things to do than read this inanity. Gonna go slip a 256GB SSD into the side of a nuclear powered matchbox and go shoot some 5K at 96fps. I suggest everyone else who has been generously granted this ability by Jim, take a deep breath and go out and do the same.

I think it's less about price and more about depreciation rate. If you had a $40k item that lost half its value every year you would need to be renting it out every single weekend to be a good investment. So the only people who can justify that sort of expense is a large rental house or a feature film which will undoubtedly use it that much.

Cheap is good. But an item with extremely fast depreciation has to be an item used extremely regularly or else the only people who can justify purchase are abnormal customers. I'm sure even Rob would be absolutely thrilled for a huge price drop after 24 months since that would be enough time to get a return. So yes if people ran the numbers I would suspect that a lot of epic customers don't actually use it enough to justify purchase with say 50% depreciation per year and that would translate into less people buying them. On the other hand I'm sure there are tons of Epic customers who get their 50 rental days and pay it off very quickly. The question everyone should ask themselves is "can I make money on this more than 50 days in a year". If the answer is no, then you probably shouldn't be buying it. If you have 24 months to make back your money that's only 25 days a year and is a lot easier to make back. That's why extremely specialty items sell less. If you for instance have a set of Anamorphic lenses then you need to be Panavision or Abel Cine or one of the larger rental houses to have enough customers in a year to make back your investment. The harder something is to rent out enough times before depreciation will dictate how many people own an item. If you had something that depreciated in 30 days and it took 30 days of rentals to pay for itself you would need extremely high demand and probably a very popular vendor.

Once something gets sufficiently cheap though then it gets to the point where the convenience is worth the loss to depreciation. Also once it's sufficiently cheap then you can spend more time learning and experimenting. I would argue that for most people $20k is not 'sufficiently cheap'. So Epic could be in kind of an awkward place with a price drop where most people won't use it for 50 days in the next year and it's too expensive to have 'for the fun of it.'