Eventual Helium Sensor-Only Upgrade?

[Christopher Probst]

The only reason I like Helium is the better noise handling. I've been hearing from too many colorists about the Epic Dragon and Weapon Dragon that they feel the material is way too noisy for such a high level camera. But comparing the $9500 upgrade price of going from MX to Epic Dragon back when Dragon was new, that was a tremendous upgrade in image quality. I'm not so sure Helium feel justified at an upgrade price at $15000 to get almost the same internal specs.

While I love the noise performance of Helium, I have never had a noise issue with my Dragon based cameras. It all comes down to HOW you shoot and expose the sensor. I see many people grossly underexposing the way they shoot digital. You mileage will vary accordingly.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

While I love the noise performance of Helium, I have never had a noise issue with my Dragon based cameras. It all comes down to HOW you shoot and expose the sensor. I see many people grossly underexposing the way they shoot digital. You mileage will vary accordingly.

Yeah, we have to remember not to become too spoiled with our Red cameras. I started out with a Scarlet-X and upgraded all the way to the Weapon 6K MG. Just watched The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo again and it looks extremely good and it's "only" the Red One MX. It's a hard choice for people like me with an extremely limited budget for investments to keep up and stay on the front lines, but the quality level of most movies and series far surpasses what I will probably have the budget for to produce and direct myself, so just being able to do a Weapon 6K to 4K release of my own production is still ahead of most filmmakers around me.

I'm probably gonna science the shit out of my current camera instead, trying to get my HDRx workflow into a nice flow and see how it could be used. One thing that's very underrated is to know your specific system in depth and beyond. More often than not I see DPs who don't know anything about the system they are using and... the quality thereafter. Most notable, as you say, many DPs don't know how to expose or work with Red cameras. People complain about them, but you still see films from people like Fincher (and of course yourself ) that look beyond what you thought was possible with Red, only because of the knowledge not only in cinematography but also with how every bolt in the camera works.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Yeah, we have to remember not to become too spoiled with our Red cameras. I started out with a Scarlet-X and upgraded all the way to the Weapon 6K MG. Just watched The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo again and it looks extremely good and it's "only" the Red One MX. It's a hard choice for people like me with an extremely limited budget for investments to keep up and stay on the front lines, but the quality level of most movies and series far surpasses what I will probably have the budget for to produce and direct myself, so just being able to do a Weapon 6K to 4K release of my own production is still ahead of most filmmakers around me.

I'm probably gonna science the shit out of my current camera instead, trying to get my HDRx workflow into a nice flow and see how it could be used. One thing that's very underrated is to know your specific system in depth and beyond. More often than not I see DPs who don't know anything about the system they are using and... the quality thereafter. Most notable, as you say, many DPs don't know how to expose or work with Red cameras. People complain about them, but you still see films from people like Fincher (and of course yourself ) that look beyond what you thought was possible with Red, only because of the knowledge not only in cinematography but also with how every bolt in the camera works.

Exactly . Think about all the stuff you've seen Mr Probst do over the years. If you know what you're doing and have a good team around you, it doesn't really matter what camera you're using its going to look awesome. But with each iteration of RED it does make it a little bit easier to get what you need and the extra resolution and raw worflow is always welcome for when you don't quite nail it on set and need to tweak the shot a little bit.
k

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Magnesium owner here, we have till dec 31, so we can watch the growing pains, wait for the tests and the science, and decide a bit later. Pretty good option.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Hmmm ... I thought the whole point of weapon was to upgrade it not replace it, my magnesium is new but has been discontinued (so practically unsellable really). The upgrade price is a replacement cost , so 10k is a very good cost but I don't need the whole thing replaced since it's basically brand new. I haven't even received the vv camera that I want to use my magnesium as a B camera for, so the december time frames make my magnesium a dead end camera. What ever .... but this feels like a screw up to me - at minimum red needs to extend the magnesium to epic-w deadlines into 2017.

 

[Brody_B]

Hmmm ... I thought the whole point of weapon was to upgrade it not replace it, my magnesium is new but has been discontinued (so practically unsellable really). The upgrade price is a replacement cost , so 10k is a very good cost but I don't need the whole thing replaced since it's basically brand new. I haven't even received the vv camera that I want to use my magnesium as a B camera for, so the december time frames make my magnesium a dead end camera. What ever .... but this feels like a screw up to me - at minimum red needs to extend the magnesium to epic-w deadlines into 2017.

I got the vibe it was purchase by Dec 31st for this discounted offer. I would assume Red is going to allow W-MG guys a (possibly higher priced) upgrade path for a while longer.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Hmmm ... I thought the whole point of weapon was to upgrade it not replace it, my magnesium is new but has been discontinued (so practically unsellable really). The upgrade price is a replacement cost , so 10k is a very good cost but I don't need the whole thing replaced since it's basically brand new. I haven't even received the vv camera that I want to use my magnesium as a B camera for, so the december time frames make my magnesium a dead end camera. What ever .... but this feels like a screw up to me - at minimum red needs to extend the magnesium to epic-w deadlines into 2017.

I'm feeling a bit like this as well. The MG is less than half a year old and I haven't even had time to do any proper jobs with it due to some editing jobs taking up my time. So if I were to replace my camera with an Epic-W, that would be like trading in a totally new camera for it. To discontinue a camera so soon after release makes it hard to even trust the Helium releases. Will they also be obsolete in six months? A year? When Epic came along it had at least two years before the Dragon sensor became the standard sensor. So it's a bit disruptive towards people who doesn't have unlimited funds to buy new cameras. Our plans were to work between upgrades and save up for the upgrades, but limiting this upgrade window to december 31st just makes it pretty much impossible for some of us to be able to save up in time. On top of that there's the fact that it cost $9500 to upgrade a camera that's around 2000-3000 in price difference when buying. Selling my MG for $26000 would land me a new Epic-W at price difference of $4000 instead. It makes little sense to pay that much to trade in the MG. The effective upgrade price for MG owners should rather be $5000 in my opinion. That's a much more logical price compared to the rest of the cameras since it much better reflects the actual difference between the two. Not to mention that Scarlet-w orders get the same camera for the price that MG owners have to pay. Both doing that and having a short window for MG owners to upgrade just feels like MG owners got left behind on this. Yeah, we got the $15000 to upgrade to the Weapon Helium but we effectively paid the same when going between Epic Dragon and Weapon MG, meaning that the value of the Epic Dragon, which was around 19K ends up + upgrades within a year being 30K + 19K for getting the Weapon Helium, essentially the upgrades didn't save us anything on the plus side, it's basically just a trade in for the exact same sum. And as for Epic-W that becomes even worse, meaning we had 19K + 15K + 9,5K = $43500 for an Epic-W while Scarlet-W orders got it for around half that price. So MG owners had to pull proportionally a lot more cash into their upgrade than the others. Why MG owners doesn't get a 4500 - 5000 upgrade price to Epic-W is beyond me. CF owners get around that price for going Weapon Helium which is in the same price ballpark, but MG owners get to pay more for Epic-W in comparison. Compared to the others I really don't get the $9500 upgrade price.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Guys, how I wish I was in your situation. I'm getting an Epic W but what I really wanted was the Weapon Helium. You all had the Magnesium, the excellent discount and accessories offers, and with exchanging only the brain get the cutting edge, top of the line Helium for 15K. We would be paying 34500 only for the brain! lets not forget if you decide to keep the Magnesium it will be fully supported, every DSMC2 module work, and its heaps better than the Epic Dragon that, for example, I will exchange for.

If I had a Weapon MG, no way would i be looking at the W, but at the Weapon Helium. Its a steal and I assure you, it will pay off quicker, requested for rent, and be more relevant much longer than the W. Take the deal!

 

[David Battistella]

While I love the noise performance of Helium, I have never had a noise issue with my Dragon based cameras. It all comes down to HOW you shoot and expose the sensor. I see many people grossly underexposing the way they shoot digital. You mileage will vary accordingly.

Very true!

David

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Guys, how I wish I was in your situation. I'm getting an Epic W but what I really wanted was the Weapon Helium. You all had the Magnesium, the excellent discount and accessories offers, and with exchanging only the brain get the cutting edge, top of the line Helium for 15K. We would be paying 34500 only for the brain! lets not forget if you decide to keep the Magnesium it will be fully supported, every DSMC2 module work, and its heaps better than the Epic Dragon that, for example, I will exchange for.

If I had a Weapon MG, no way would i be looking at the W, but at the Weapon Helium. Its a steal and I assure you, it will pay off quicker, requested for rent, and be more relevant much longer than the W. Take the deal!

How can it be a steal when the effective price for most of us who upgraded to MG ends up around the same as a new Weapon Helium? Worth of Dragon, 19K, upgrade MG 15K, upgrade WH 15K.

 

[Sergio Perez]

How can it be a steal when the effective price for most of us who upgraded to MG ends up around the same as a new Weapon Helium? Worth of Dragon, 19K, upgrade MG 15K, upgrade WH 15K.

Well, I would say this. If I remember correctly, since I was a pre Nab, pre "october" 2014 Dragon updater, I got almost 10K in accessories if going magnesium. I remember it was something like 29 000 USD to go to CF, which was the path to VV. It also gave away that accessory credit. If I went magnesium, considering the accessory credit, 15 000 USD would mean in reality about 10 000 or less to upgrade to Weapon. If I was considering the current Epic W upgrade from magnesium, since I didn't have to spend 5000 in accessories, it would mean 9500 with no additional costs.Or 15 000 USD to Weapon Helium with no additional costs.

Right now for the Epic W I had to fork out 8K in accessories added to the 14500 update price and Red Armor. If I wanted to go Helium it would be 43000 + USD.

It really does sound like the MG's got the best deal of all!

 

[sam karr]

I'm feeling a bit like this as well. The MG is less than half a year old and I haven't even had time to do any proper jobs with it due to some editing jobs taking up my time. So if I were to replace my camera with an Epic-W, that would be like trading in a totally new camera for it. To discontinue a camera so soon after release makes it hard to even trust the Helium releases. Will they also be obsolete in six months? A year? When Epic came along it had at least two years before the Dragon sensor became the standard sensor. So it's a bit disruptive towards people who doesn't have unlimited funds to buy new cameras. Our plans were to work between upgrades and save up for the upgrades, but limiting this upgrade window to december 31st just makes it pretty much impossible for some of us to be able to save up in time. On top of that there's the fact that it cost $9500 to upgrade a camera that's around 2000-3000 in price difference when buying.

Why didn't you rent instead? Red cameras are a very bad investment. Unless you work a lot and pay back for it quickly. It's super hard to resale those cameras for a decent price. If you just have a job here and there, just buy a scarlet-D or a scarlet-W (which is already more than enough for any job, even Hollywood stuffs, I'm 100% sure nobody will see the difference between a scarlet-D and a Epic-W movie on a TV or in a theatre), then you can even practice with it whenever you want, and rent Weapons if some project or a client need the extra power. You would feel relaxed only focusing on your work instead of being worried here everyday, and you would lose a lot less money. Better use that money for lighting or lenses which you will keep for 20 years.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I think any option to upgrade is a good deal. The flip side is no option

 

[Ian D]

I think the options are great, and if I can get the cash by then end of the year then i'll make a leap. the weapon helium sounds like the best of the bunch but it is a big step to go 8k, I know my clients are not ready for it. I was thinking what would be incredibly useful would be an option to use the whole sensor size with some sort of magic computer stuff to end up with lets say 5k raw, so I could keep my fov, go upto 120 fps, use the new sensor and keep every one happy. What would the thoughts of smarter tec be on that, possible ?

Cheers
Ian

 

[Ian D]

a field of view selector feature

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

People would LOVE this option but it's sorta in reds DNA not to, but hey, they added prores so who knows

 

[Ian D]

would be fantastic

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think the options are great, and if I can get the cash by then end of the year then i'll make a leap. the weapon helium sounds like the best of the bunch but it is a big step to go 8k, I know my clients are not ready for it. I was thinking what would be incredibly useful would be an option to use the whole sensor size with some sort of magic computer stuff to end up with lets say 5k raw, so I could keep my fov, go upto 120 fps, use the new sensor and keep every one happy. What would the thoughts of smarter tec be on that, possible ?

Cheers
Ian

I doubt it. I'm no engineer or tech guy, but common sense tells methat would need more computering power and some sort of pixel binning to be achieveable- like what DSLR's do. The camera would still need to be using the full sensor and its pixels, which I believe is what is creating the FPS bottleneck in the first place, and why mirroring increases FPS. I might be completely wrong though, and would really LOVE this idea of using the full sensor with higher frame rates at lower resolutions. That would be a game changer.

 

[Ian D]

I doubt it. I'm no engineer or tech guy, but common sense tells methat would need more computering power and some sort of pixel binning to be achieveable- like what DSLR's do. The camera would still need to be using the full sensor and its pixels, which I believe is what is creating the FPS bottleneck in the first place, and why mirroring increases FPS. I might be completely wrong though, and would really LOVE this idea of using the full sensor with higher frame rates at lower resolutions. That would be a game changer.

I can't even apply common sense to a matter like this as its too into the tec world, but they do decode / down convert to prores, 8k to 2k or 4k on the fly with speed. being able to give pro res is great, but when they want to have a master so they are 4k protected handing over 8k files is a bit over kill for some jobs 30fps in 4k prores is not brilliant. 2k pro res is ideal, but my dream would be, 8k raw for the big stuff, 4.5k raw that uses the whole sensor for smaller productions and can go to 120fps, perhaps there is some way to make it work ?

Delivering and defining the future can be difficult for people to adapt to straight away, congrats to red for pushing the boundaries.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I can't even apply common sense to a matter like this as its too into the tec world, but they do decode / down convert to prores, 8k to 2k or 4k on the fly with speed. being able to give pro res is great, but when they want to have a master so they are 4k protected handing over 8k files is a bit over kill for some jobs 30fps in 4k prores is not brilliant. 2k pro res is ideal, but my dream would be, 8k raw for the big stuff, 4.5k raw that uses the whole sensor for smaller productions and can go to 120fps, perhaps there is some way to make it work ?

Delivering and defining the future can be difficult for people to adapt to straight away, congrats to red for pushing the boundaries.

Completely agree Ian. For me I really don't see the allure of In Cam prores. Red's big revolution is REDCODE RAW. Nowadays, editing Redcode even in the higher end Online and Grading suites is a breeze and hassle free, I don't see why clients still "demand" prores. Also, decoding to prores in Post does make you waste a bit of extra disk space and time, but its fast in current machines.

I would definitely prefer my upcoming Epic W to be all RAW and offer me a "proxy" full sensor 4K 120/150fps REDCODE file than having both Redcode and Prores. A Epic W R. If this was a paid upgrade I would jump to it. If this is anywhere possible, Red, please make it happen! Prores? I can make it in post. Redcode ? No way!