Epic-W

[Christoffer Glans]

Because it would replace the MG line. the Weapon MG was always a weird offer for Red to have in the weapon line ($20k cheaper but still 6k and a Weapon title like its $50k bigger brother) They need to separate their line as they are too similar, and My guess is they would try and position that price range with this new Epic-W, weeding out MG all together.

and I Never said it wouldn't do HFR, That would be lame, imagine my posted specs w/ compression ratios that trickle down with higher frame rates just like all Reds, I just didn't want to type it all in. got me?

Alright, makes sense, but giving a direct upgrade choice for MX owners to Epic-W, which many believes, would not be right towards Weapon MG owners. That would mean $24500 in upgrade costs wasted if you could just hold on to your MX and get a direct upgrade to Epic-W. But if Epic-W is MG with 8K Helium, that might be what it's about, true.

 

[Brody_B]

Ya I got a feeling Red will make MX'rs pay a hefty amount, and hopefully give MG's a significant discount over early years sensor upgrade costs. Only time will tell.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

is the Epic-W the new Helium Sensor with the same specs as Weapon VV?

 

[Alberto Guglielmi]

I think that a possible Epic-W S35 Helium (8K?) and the current Weapon MG at dragon 6K are very different cameras. I personally prefer FF to S35 and I always strongly believed that space between pixels is important for many reasons. Much more than pixel resolution. So MG might be the entry to the weapon world, and the Epic-W to the Helium. Just a guess. I am not sure that the Helium is necessary a better sensor. It might just be an easier one to produce.

Hopefully that is not going to upset Christoffer too much about what MX owners might get vs what he gets....hmy:

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I think that a possible Epic-W S35 Helium (8K?) and the current Weapon MG at dragon 6K are very different cameras. I personally prefer FF to S35 and I always strongly believed that space between pixels is important for many reasons. Much more than pixel resolution. So MG might be the entry to the weapon world, and the Epic-W to the Helium. Just a guess. I am not sure that the Helium is necessary a better sensor. It might just be an easier one to produce.

Hopefully that is not going to upset Christoffer too much about what MX owners might get vs what he gets....hmy:

This is why i've always taken the stance to wait and see what happens with cameras. Unfortunately in this new upgrade path i'm already out of it since the MG Weapon is so far out of my price range. Honestly these advancements are extremely exciting to me to see what will filter down the lineup to cameras like the Scarlet-W and Raven in the future. I'm never going to be able to stay in the top end of the RED lineup. But seeing the tech that will be available through the whole line-up someday is awesome!

No they don't, but if you think treating customers in such a way that you answer their concerns at one time just to change it around the next is good for a companies status I'm not so sure. They specifically said that MX was EOL when talking about Weapon upgrades, meaning that they told us we need to go Dragon to be able to continue upgrading, so we did. If MX then gets to upgrade to something on par with what we MG owners have now, then that is an asshole move. Of course, it's speculation, because we don't know the cost and the specs of what MX users can get, but it's still bad that we specifically heard that us MX owners had to upgrade otherwise be EOL when it clearly wasn't.

How are they treating you poorly? By running a business? They've already lined you up with Upgrades for what 3-4 tiers of upgrades? That seems pretty awesome to me. I know I've gone through one myself. Point me to another company that offers you that many upgrade options without buying a whole new camera? I can't think of one. Point being you're not buying a whole new camera every single time. Any other company you are. Quit being insecure about your investment and just use it.

I agree with the MX being EOL, I'm not saying it's awesome they are deciding to do that. At the same time it's not going to effect how my camera works in the future, or how my business operates. If i'm worried about the deal others are getting it's going to drag me backwards and make me less productive. Use what you got. If you decide to jump in early you'll always pay a premium.

As RED used to say.. Things Change... Expect it.

 

[Phil Holland]

While I'm enjoying the speculation and genreal "sky is falling perspective" I would suggest that everybody waits a heartbeat to discover what is happening specs and pricing wise for Epic-W, Helium, and whatever the future may hold.

What can be extrapolated from the announcements:
- RED has developed an S35 8K sensor technology that will interest some.
- Epic-W is real and coming. The only thing we know for sure is its Helium capable and a camera.
- there is something coming down the line for Mysterium-X owners. And no, RED won't be screwing over any current Dragon owner in the process, despite the chatter.

Sorry to lay it out dry, but the air is insane around here sometimes when anything new is teased or mentioned when often the reality is just more options being offered to us if we want them.

And just to poison that dry heave with some smokey syrupy good thoughts. Do remember there are competing manufacturers developing 8K tech. RED is ahead of schedule on this front and in many ways once again paving the road to high resolution motion picture acquisition.

Also, if you are invested in S35 glass Helium 8K S35 is indeed great news.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

As an innocent—non invested—bystander since 2008, there's always been an elephant in the room in which people sign up for upgrades.

The one thing I'm most agreeing with is Probst's general conclusion from before. If you're an all in RED user and you've got a working business at the higher end of the spectrum, then you should probably try to always upgrade to the latest and greatest on day 1—regardless of cost. This will be a significant expense, but the idea is you'll make that money back quickly, being one of the few with the latest tech. This harkens back to the early days where true believers were compensated (if not 100%, then close to it) for being early ambassadors for the brand and tech. The compensation isn't so much money anymore, but there seems to be a reasonable amount of time early adopters get to make their money back through exclusivity.

Anything below that top tier is a toss up. You can find great deals, but you might also be the guy/gal who stepped up to the plate and got an Epic one week before RED cut the price by $20k or whatever.

For the record: I do think that users who are fine with the general form factor and proprietary media get a great deal with the Raven and Scarlet W.

I've said it before: the day RED drops the whole upgrading circus, everyone will be better off for it—including RED. The one possible exception being all the used cameras then landing in the hands of 'not die hard fans'/grass roots shooters who might not possess the necessary knowhow or mindset. That might be a cluster...hug.

 

[David Battistella]

Just to echo Phil's wise words.

I've seen many conspiracy theories over the years and customers who are unhappy, etc. But from expiernce and track record RED really are a company that thinks A LOT about their customers and they are constantly providing generous and fair ways to move up in the lineup or upgrade. I've been through the process since literally almost day one and time and time again RED does what is right for their customers.

David

 

[Andrei Goaga]

Alright, makes sense, but giving a direct upgrade choice for MX owners to Epic-W, which many believes, would not be right towards Weapon MG owners. That would mean $24500 in upgrade costs wasted if you could just hold on to your MX and get a direct upgrade to Epic-W. But if Epic-W is MG with 8K Helium, that might be what it's about, true.

I think we should not just take upgrades for granted, or anything else offered by RED for that matter. You made a business decision based on what RED has offered to you at that time. I think that saying "you should upgrade to Dragon or else MX is EOL" is very very very true, considering the advance in IQ that Dragon brings. It was true then, it is even more true now.

And I really don't see any "backstabbing" or misinformation by RED here.

Since that statement has been made, 2 years have passed. And as with all things tech, new tech that used to be expensive becomes old tech that drops in price making room for insanely cheap and capable camera like the Raven or Scarlet-W.

So that being the case, I don't see that your 24K paid in upgrades should be considered a loss, but instead, see it as a gain, being able to hold the Dragon in your hands for approx 2 years and make money out of it.

So the Epic-W will mean for Helium, just what Scarlet-W meant for Weapon, dropping the entry price point for the RED system and taking good care of old customers that once put 25K in a camera system to start with.

I really don't see any CF owners being nervous about their investment being undermined by any other camera in RED's line-up

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I'm just questioning the timing of the Helium sensor. We all knew that there would be a new sensor sometime after the Weapon cameras rolled out. My Magnesuim arrived less then two months ago and literally in a couple months Red will start upgrading to a new sensor! While people are still waiting for their cameras! At least with the MX to Dragon we had a couple years in between.
It was either Jarred or Jim who said that Red would continue the Weapon line until 2020. Since Helium is starting with what looks like this year, then would Red not do another sensor or brain upgrade for at least 3 years?
I'm extremely happy with my Weapon and to be a part of the Red family, it took me forever to save up to get it and the accessories needed to shoot with it-now to stay on top of things I'd have to fork up even more money so soon after receiving my camera it just seems ill timed.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Times are different now. The world is finally moving to UHD and competition is heating up. Expect the sensor/body design cycle to be more frequent.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

why not making 6:5 or 4:3 sensor? who needs 16:9 when you have these

 

[Levi Arnold]

it took me forever to save up to get it and the accessories needed to shoot with it-now to stay on top of things I'd have to fork up even more money so soon after receiving my camera it just seems ill timed.

Shoot with what you've got and make money with it to allow a further upgrade. I got my Epic Dragon right before the Weapon announcement and yeah I'd love to have gotten a Weapon instead but filmmaking isn't about the newest sensor and stuff it's about the story. I'm the same way wanting the new stuff but I just rent all the newest stuff.

 

[Ugo Del]

I'm just questioning the timing of the Helium sensor. We all knew that there would be a new sensor sometime after the Weapon cameras rolled out. My Magnesuim arrived less then two months ago and literally in a couple months Red will start upgrading to a new sensor! While people are still waiting for their cameras! At least with the MX to Dragon we had a couple years in between.
It was either Jarred or Jim who said that Red would continue the Weapon line until 2020. Since Helium is starting with what looks like this year, then would Red not do another sensor or brain upgrade for at least 3 years?
I'm extremely happy with my Weapon and to be a part of the Red family, it took me forever to save up to get it and the accessories needed to shoot with it-now to stay on top of things I'd have to fork up even more money so soon after receiving my camera it just seems ill timed.

From Jarred, last september: "Epic has a path forward into the new form factor, Scarlet will see a path forward to the new form factor, then there will be a new sensor in a few years, and then a few years after that the cycle repeats all over again.". Either it 's going a bit faster than expected ^^ either Helium is not the new sensor he was talking about, but a different sensor aimed at different kinds of work, which is my opinion.

 

[Dustin Hoye]

While I'm enjoying the speculation and genreal "sky is falling perspective" I would suggest that everybody waits a heartbeat to discover what is happening specs and pricing wise for Epic-W, Helium, and whatever the future may hold.

What can be extrapolated from the announcements:
- RED has developed an S35 8K sensor technology that will interest some.
- Epic-W is real and coming. The only thing we know for sure is its Helium capable and a camera.
- there is something coming down the line for Mysterium-X owners. And no, RED won't be screwing over any current Dragon owner in the process, despite the chatter.

Sorry to lay it out dry, but the air is insane around here sometimes when anything new is teased or mentioned when often the reality is just more options being offered to us if we want them.

And just to poison that dry heave with some smokey syrupy good thoughts. Do remember there are competing manufacturers developing 8K tech. RED is ahead of schedule on this front and in many ways once again paving the road to high resolution motion picture acquisition.

Also, if you are invested in S35 glass Helium 8K S35 is indeed great news.

+1

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Just to echo Phil's wise words.

I've seen many conspiracy theories over the years and customers who are unhappy, etc. But from expiernce and track record RED really are a company that thinks A LOT about their customers and they are constantly providing generous and fair ways to move up in the lineup or upgrade. I've been through the process since literally almost day one and time and time again RED does what is right for their customers.

David

True and that's why I'm still here
But what would Red have been without the concerns of some of the loyal users? Concerns bring up solutions and new ideas. Without concerns over noise on the OLPF we wouldn't have gotten interchangeable OLPFs. In the end, it's not about negativity, it's all about improvements.

 

[Nick Morrison]

My guess is neither Helium nor Epic-W will be as disruptive to current customers as some imagine.

For one, Helium may alleviate Dragon deliveries, as Jarred hinted, as some people jump to Helium. That's GOOD for Dragon customers waiting for Magnesiums, Scarlet-W's or Ravens.

Two, the Epic-W will probably have an "upgrade path" for Epic MX owners, much as Scarlet-W had one for Scarlet Dragon owners - in the form of a "keep your camera cash credit". They did it before with the Scarlet-W. Can't see why they wouldn't reactivate a similar program for Scarlet-W's bigger brother, the Epic-W.

And in terms of Epic-W competing with Magnesium Dragon, again I think there will be a compromise. My guess is Epic-W will be a 7K or 6K cut of Helium. My guess is 6K (which is close to Academy 35). Yes that would have the same resolution as Magnesium Dragon, but also a significantly smaller sensor. It also presumably wouldn't be upgradeable DIRECTLY to an 8K Helium sensor like Weapon can (though perhaps later with a trade in yes?).

Again, these are all guesses. But one thing is clear. Weapon is always going to be the premium line. And Scarlet-W and Epic-W the smaller brothers. That doesn't seem likely to change soon.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Looks like two there are different cameras now available, not to state the obvious; but, people want to shoot on S35 Lenses and shoot 8k, some want to shoot on 70mm and shoot VV... If you bought a Weapon-MG and own all S35 lenses or prefer that image circle over 70mm, then you can upgrade, change...

personally, I would be interested in 8k anamorphic, 1.33sensor...

 

[Brody_B]

Lets be clear the Helium s35 is almost the same size as the current 6k Dragon. SO we have had "2 different cameras" - more so sensor sizes for a while now. Maybe what your saying is there are 2 8K options now, ya that is stating the obvious. I guess what Im saying is that there are so many other differences in question, noise handling, color, etc. I don't think its going to be just a size thing.

Looks like two there are different cameras now available, not to state the obvious; but, people want to shoot on S35 Lenses and shoot 8k, some want to shoot on 70mm and shoot VV... If you bought a Weapon-MG and own all S35 lenses or prefer that image circle over 70mm, then you can upgrade, change...

personally, I would be interested in 8k anamorphic, 1.33sensor...

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

My guess is neither Helium nor Epic-W will be as disruptive to current customers as some imagine.

For one, Helium may alleviate Dragon deliveries, as Jarred hinted, as some people jump to Helium. That's GOOD for Dragon customers waiting for Magnesiums, Scarlet-W's or Ravens.

Two, the Epic-W will probably have an "upgrade path" for Epic MX owners, much as Scarlet-W had one for Scarlet Dragon owners - in the form of a "keep your camera cash credit". They did it before with the Scarlet-W. Can't see why they wouldn't reactivate a similar program for Scarlet-W's bigger brother, the Epic-W.

And in terms of Epic-W competing with Magnesium Dragon, again I think there will be a compromise. My guess is Epic-W will be a 7K or 6K cut of Helium. My guess is 6K (which is close to Academy 35). Yes that would have the same resolution as Magnesium Dragon, but also a significantly smaller sensor. It also presumably wouldn't be upgradeable DIRECTLY to an 8K Helium sensor like Weapon can (though perhaps later with a trade in yes?).

Again, these are all guesses. But one thing is clear. Weapon is always going to be the premium line. And Scarlet-W and Epic-W the smaller brothers. That doesn't seem likely to change soon.

Just a thought here, I'd guess it'd be the same size sensor based on the ability to now make a smaller sensor with smaller pixels. Maybe they'd just make the resolution lower on the same cut of a sensor.