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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic-W

Stacey Spears said:
Jarred said that Mg will have a path. That could mean upgrade the electronics to CF power and get new sensor.
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But that would be DOA. If we who upgraded to MG did so because we couldn't afford the much higher cost of the CF how would we ever afford an upgrade that propose upgrading to CF first and on top of that the Helium sensor? That doesn't feel logical at all and such a thing could propose that we would have an "upgrade path" to anything. My Weapon MG has an upgrade path to a NASA moon rocket, it's just not in the price range that any MG owners can afford. If CF is needed to be able to run Helium, well, then the promise of MG being future proof that we got when upgrading into the Weapon architecture rings kinda false. You can't say that the Weapon system is the way forward when CF is the ONLY way forward. Many of us with MGs probably went for it in order to stay on track with development. We didn't have the economy to go full blown CF, but we didn't want to be left behind... now, Epic MX owners get a change to have Helium with Epic-W and we are left wondering if we with MGs need to pay for a CF anyway together with the cost for a new sensor... it doesn't add up, not for the market MG was intended for. And if our upgrade to Helium will cost close to what Epic owners will pay for getting Helium, that would be a bad move against MG owners who paid by far more going from Epic MX to Weapon MG.

The cost is going to determine everything. Will the specs and costs be justified for the different owners of the different types of cameras?
 
I would say that to have a Weapon in hand today is going to keep you on good stead for many many months or longer. Looking at how the delivery chain is going for SW and Raven, Helium is close to Vapor for the near term. I think it is too easy to get caught up in the Red pyrotechnics and not just get on with working. This evolution of cameras and sensors will go on ad infinitum and unless you are a select few like a Michael Bay then what do you need all this for? The worlds first cappuccino making video shot in Vista Vision?

Red is smart with marketing. It is no coincidence that if you check timelines the 8K story began right around the arrival of the Alexa Mini. Since then Red has smartly decided to split its market focus in two. Make low end versions of its tech for the indie crowd, while developing more advanced and expensive tech for the top tier. Where it is tough for the Red loyal, is that they are starting to see how this affects their ranking on this technological scale. A year ago if you could swing it owning the best of Red was sort of approachable. Now the best of Red is becoming serious coin and a rental only item. However, look at the enthusiasm of newcomers to the system who are so appreciative of being able to have a Raven or SW. And who would love to have an MG.

As Stacey said. First world probs indeed.
 
Is it just possible they have uncovered a way to get more horsepower out of the Weapon Mg boards? I do not profess to know anything about the technicalities of tweaking a RED camera, but if they say they can make the Helium work with the Mg, then I'm guessing something has changed. This from the rational side of me.

But the irrational side of me is curious why the Helium now? What's the rush? Do they see something coming that is going to overwhelm the market as they once did, and are trying to maximize their tech before it becomes overshadowed?

I used to just look at the tech... now I look at the tech and motive.

RED and égalité is no longer synonymous, IMO.
 
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Christoffer Glans said:
If we who upgraded to MG did so because we couldn't afford the much higher cost of the CF how would we ever afford an upgrade that propose upgrading to CF first and on top of that the Helium sensor?
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Here is one possible scenario. At one point in time someone might have had a limited budget so they could only go from EPIC Dragon to Mg Weapon. So they make the plunge. Then they work hard for a year or two and then they saved up enough to jump from the HP of the Mg to the HP of the CF. While they could not afford it in one stage, they are able to make it in two stages + time. Assuming this is even an option.

We are in new territory with several different levels of cameras. Back with RED ONE and early EPIC days, this was not an issue as well were all on the same playing field. Now we are all at different levels. If upgrades caused confusion in the past, I can't image what they will cause in the future. :-) As Elsie says, Red may have optimized things a bit and Mg may have more HP for Helium. All just speculation and educated assumptions at this point.

Until we have all the details, we don't really know. We can only speculate and continue to work / enjoy what we have today. Or panic! We can do that too! :-)
 
Helium could just be a novel solution to a yield issue.
 
Med D said:
Helium could just be a novel solution to a yield issue.
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Certainly a possibility... but even using a slightly smaller wafer, it would seem cramming pixels with higher density onto a wafer would create a greater degree of difficulty.

Still not understanding how the making of the 8k VV hasn't progressed to a point of acceptable returns in more than a year's time.

After all, they made twelve of them for the Gaurdians picture and that was done some time ago. Have they made only like 12 more since then?
 
Elsie N said:
Certainly a possibility... but even using a slightly smaller wafer, it would seem cramming pixels with higher density onto a wafer would create a greater degree of difficulty.

Still not understanding how the making of the 8k VV hasn't progressed to a point of acceptable returns in more than a year's time.

After all, they made twelve of them for the Gaurdians picture and that was done some time ago. Have they made only like 12 more since then?
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Red probably works on Helium for months to fight back the Arri S35 6k future camera. They probably had to announce it sooner than expected to release the pressure with the different cameras queues and because they didn't expect the 8k VV sensor to be that difficult to build, hoping that many will choose the Helium road and postpone their upgrade or purchase.
 
My assumption is that RED wants to own 8K before everybody else jumps in. 6K they had it for a while.

I assume only, that Helium is an easier sensor to make, and less expensive, giving them the opportunity to move the lines and create separation between the cameras (now very much cramped together).
So let's say that: Weapon upgrades to 8k Dragon. Epic-W becomes 8K helium. Scarlet-W and Raven stay as the two different entry points.
Weapon Mg owners can choose to upgrade the sensor to Helium and become Epic-W or Upgrade the body and move to the dragon 8K.
At this point I don't see the Epic-W becoming better spec camera than the Weapon.

So the line will be Weapon FF, Epic S35, Scarlet, Raven.

The Weapon Mg is the one that creates confusion, and I think it just happened to exist more than it was planned to be in the line. It was a way to bring more Dragon people to the DSMC2 without sacrificing resolution (Scarlet-W/Raven) or too much money (Weapon).
 
Never thought I'd say this, but I think there are too many cams at this point. It would make me hesitate and wait if I was looking to get another.
 
Akin A said:
Never thought I'd say this, but I think there are too many cams at this point. It would make me hesitate and wait if I was looking to get another.
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Pretty sound thinking until things shake out. Else you could end up waiting a couple of years for your camera to be built, or it may end up being rendered moot by other cameras released by other companies or RED itself.

As long as it is being offered as a refundable deposit, the risk/reward is not too lopsided if the camera takes too long to fulfill orders. But if they move to an up-front payment model such as was done for the 8k VV, then the more time you invest in waiting, the more difficult it is to opt out unless the novelty completly is compromised.
 
Akin A said:
Never thought I'd say this, but I think there are too many cams at this point. It would make me hesitate and wait if I was looking to get another.
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Interesting opinion.

From my perspective, at list what I can observe, it appears that specifically with the DSMC2 lineup RED has been deploying cameras for different market segments and price points. A lot of shooters have been looking for a doorway into ownership of quality digital cinema cameras. There was a time when the RED One represented that. The the need for more arrived, but the next doorway opened in the form of Scarlet. The cycle repeated and we now have Raven as the entry level camera.

The interesting split here is the new sensor technology and what it will mean for current and future cameras. That's all too early to tell.

Looking at Dragon within DSMC2 we have:
Weapon 8K VV
Weapon 6K CF
Weapon 6K MG
Scarlet-W 5K
Raven 4.5K

Weapon is now the premium series and is no small investment, but does pack the most punch. Scarlet-W to me is the deal of the decade, especially if you were/are a Scarlet Dragon owner. And it's interesting to think about, but Raven is "more" punch than the original RED One for significantly less than what that camera was released at.

Epic-W now being teased as Helium sensor based is interesting and it will be curious to see what is offered both in terms of that body's feature set as well as price point. There's also whatever path is planned for some the Epic MX owners. Sounds like that path is still a bit away, but RED has been doing a somewhat decent job of offering, releasing, and pricing accordingly in a tiered structure that makes sense. I'm sure some wouldn't agree, but it is indeed tiered.

Overall I'm happy that RED is providing a tiered system and cameras that can exist on every type of set and production. I also like the focus on format sizes within all of these multi-format systems. Epic Dragon and Weapon 6K in my last few shooting years barely ever went below 5K, but having the flexibility between 5K, 5.5K, and 6K were paramount as every job seemed to jump between those three resolutions for me. I don't think I shot a single frame of anything below 4K from either of those cameras which personally feels good.

Now that Weapon 8K VV has landed I'm curious to see what sub resolutions will be popping up. Often the decision is due to max FPS, but there's always other reasons to shoot at various resolutions when it comes to workflow.
 
As far as Dragon 8k vs Helium, Whats interesting is the Weapon MG will have the ability to upgrade to, and therefore run Helium 8K s35 but no path from MG to vv 8K. Does this mean the Helium is more efficient and less processor hungry. May have something to do with the performance. Im sure some of the more tech peeps can comment to this.
 
IMO some here are overreacting to the fact that there will be an upgrade path for the MX guys. It will probably be proportional, so if you went MX->Dragon->Weapon and you paid X, for the MX will be a minimum of X plus whatever is the upgrade from Weapon to Helium (since there is some depreciation of the MX since Dragon came along it will probably be a little bit more). I believe it will be a fair deal to those who have upgraded (mx-Dragon-Weapon) and to those that did not. If I had to guess it will be a better deal than having to buy from scratch, but not as good as those that have upgraded.
I guess in the coming months we will find out more.
 
I wonder how much a Epic MX is worth now . I just bought a Epic Dragon last week and was planning on selling the MX.
 
Fabricio Morato said:
IMO some here are overreacting to the fact that there will be an upgrade path for the MX guys. It will probably be proportional, so if you went MX->Dragon->Weapon and you paid X, for the MX will be a minimum of X plus whatever is the upgrade from Weapon to Helium (since there is some depreciation of the MX since Dragon came along it will probably be a little bit more). I believe it will be a fair deal to those who have upgraded (mx-Dragon-Weapon) and to those that did not. If I had to guess it will be a better deal than having to buy from scratch, but not as good as those that have upgraded.
I guess in the coming months we will find out more.
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Im sure your right, history shows Red has been pretty reasonable and fair.
 
Things to consider about Helium

1. 8K means a lot less time on each card and a lot more space needed on HDD's (do a budget calculation for a short imaginary project and you'll get the difference between regular Weapon 6K and 8K).
2. 8K means a lot more processing power needed when working in post, you might need to upgrade the hell out of that rig that works so well now.
3. 8K s35mm might mean that you can't shoot at up to 96 fps in full sensor frame. Meaning, if you want to shoot s35mm at high speeds you might need to crop, just like with the old Red One. This depends on how processing hungry the new sensor is, but to be able to write 8K with the same in-camera specs as before you might need to choose between high speed 96fps full sensor frame at 6K Dragon or around 60 fps 8K s35mm.
4. S35mm is slightly smaller in sensor size meaning you will be able to use some lenses that might not have been possible with the 6K Dragon. However, it also means that if you had FF lenses and wanted some lookaround for stablizing and reframing you have slightly less of that.
5. If you don't have lenses that are sharp enough for 8K, why bother? There are only few lenses that are capable of giving a sharp 8K image, yes you get a superb scale down even on those, but many lenses maxes out at 6K for optimal sharpness. If sharpness is your thing, 8K might not give you that anyway, not in the way you expect it to.
6. Some clients don't want heavy 8K files. Yes, we can argue that people don't understand what 8K means and what downscaling RAW means, but I've encountered so many clients that don't want to use my camera because it's "over powerful" in it's resolution and they don't need it for the thing they are doing. So getting 8K won't be any selling point when doing work for clients, they won't care. (To them, Red is Red... there's no difference between the cameras, shot on Red is the only thing they seem to know).
7. 8K might mean more compression needed.

For me, the ONLY reason to go with Helium is if it's a better sensor overall. Not in terms of resolution but in terms of color science, DR, noise etc. When we look at both MX and Dragon we are never really talking about resolution when thinking of improvements. We talk about noise, OLPF, highlight protection, DR, color science, skin tones etc. I've never seen any thread speaking about "problems" with Dragon or improvements needed that in any way revolve around resolution. So Helium really needs to bring more than just 8K, because most projects we are gonna deliver will be UHD deliveries for years to come. So even if the 8K is much better than 6K when downscaling, it will probably look similar if the color science and performance of Helium is exactly like Dragon. If Helium is just a stepping stone towards a new sensor with new color science I think few of us would like to wait for that instead.

What I like Helium to be, thinking back on how improvements have been in sensor tech over the years, is: 8K s35mm, base ISO 1280 or double base ISO 640 and 5000, 90fps at full resolution (possible on CF but should also be possible on MG to match performance with Dragon), 1 or 2 stops more DR, if double ISO then maybe HDRx based on ISO rather than shutter, better noise handling, improved color science with less "bleedy" colors.
That would be the next logical step comparing what improved between MX and Dragon.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
What I like Helium to be, thinking back on how improvements have been in sensor tech over the years, is: 8K s35mm, base ISO 1280 or double base ISO 640 and 5000, 90fps at full resolution (possible on CF but should also be possible on MG to match performance with Dragon), 1 or 2 stops more DR, if double ISO then maybe HDRx based on ISO rather than shutter, better noise handling, improved color science with less "bleedy" colors.
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What you will get: S35 @6.8k (24.9mm S35 format / 0.00365 Helium pixel size), same iso/DR/color science and a brand new computer to handle it.
They will not deliver something that disruptive when they just started delivering Raven, Scarlet-W, Weapon 8KVV.
 
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