Epic-W

[Christoffer Glans]

Chris, you need to tell me something. Everywhere regarding a possible upgrade path for MX owners you act all tight up. Where are you afraid of? That your investment to a Wmg was a bad call?
I'm just curious.

I'm a bit tired of seeing "EPIC-W CONFIRMED! YEEAAH!" every time there's some news and I'm generally disliking illogical reasoning in general, it clogs up otherwise reasonable discussions. It's unreasonable to think that a simple upgrade from Epic MX to Epic-W would give a camera that's almost on par with a Weapon 6K which when comparing to the cost of the upgrade path for other people would be a unreasonable action by Red and would create a bit of stir among those who paid much more.

That is the other thing as well, investing into MG wasn't a bad call, but if others will be able to get to the front of the line with less invested into their upgrade it would look very bad since all everyone heard since the Dragon sensor came out has been to upgrade as soon as possible because it will pay off later and you can do it with less investments at the time of saying. If MX owners somehow get a "free ticket" now to something that took a lot of investment for others, it's an asshole move by Red towards loyal customers and in lack of better terms a pure lie that we would benefit from upgrading sooner. It would make the whole business model crumble, since it's based on customer loyalty and now with the new Helium sensor, we might hear that it would be best to upgrade as soon as possible and not wait. But if it wasn't true for the MX sensor, why would waiting not be good if we could possibly get a free ticket to Helium further down the road?

So, what am I disliking? Well, if Red enables an upgrade for MX owners to upgrade to an Epic-W with close to MG 6K specs for a fraction of what the cost was going from MX to Dragon to Weapon MG, that is an asshole move by them. It would make everything going forward with upgrading Red in the future be a wild west and any upgrade choice you make, however detailed and informed you are could be almost worthless in the long run.

The upgrades needs to be reasonable for all people and people expecting going from MX to Weapon 6K-like specs for a fraction of the cost is acting frankly a bit spoiled, screaming for more while expecting to get it for less. Jarred was specific in saying that if you don't upgrade from MX you will not be able to go forward. Now he is changing that by making something that will enable you to, but if that is anywhere close to a Weapon 6K there will be a lot of confusion among the others he said should upgrade in order to move forward.

If the MX upgrade to Epic-W is a Weapon with MX sensor, that would make sense and be reasonable. All Weapon upgrades, including Scarlet has been from Dragon sensors. Going from Epic MX to Weapon Dragon would be very strange to see.

But of course it's good for all people with MXs if this is true, but the trust with what Red says to their customers will go out the window.

I completely disagree. And I see a lot of comments like this. I've been lucky enough to use both and certainly agree there are advantages to the Weapon series. And sure in ways you get more out of it. In the end to me, its still the end user and the process involved thats going to achieve the best results. The Weapon just makes a touch bit easier on the end user. The price jump, in my eyes isn't really justified unless one of the advantages really makes sense business wise. Certainly not a waste, but to me the MG Weapon still feels a bit lost and awkward amongst the crowd of RED cameras.

Well, it's not. The CF is what the CF version of Epic Dragon was. It's powerful, but could do the same as the regular Epic. Yes, the MG can't do 4K ProRes but I think that format is a bit DOA. LUTs is also a bit unnecessary for that price jump. The MG Weapon is essentially the Epic Dragon with all the Weapon benefits. It's in my opinion the most return of investments you get among the upgrade options from Epic Dragon.

 

[Jaimy Soares]

I'm a bit tired of seeing "EPIC-W CONFIRMED! YEEAAH!" every time there's some news and I'm generally disliking illogical reasoning in general, it clogs up otherwise reasonable discussions. It's unreasonable to think that a simple upgrade from Epic MX to Epic-W would give a camera that's almost on par with a Weapon 6K which when comparing to the cost of the upgrade path for other people would be a unreasonable action by Red and would create a bit of stir among those who paid much more.

That is the other thing as well, investing into MG wasn't a bad call, but if others will be able to get to the front of the line with less invested into their upgrade it would look very bad since all everyone heard since the Dragon sensor came out has been to upgrade as soon as possible because it will pay off later and you can do it with less investments at the time of saying. If MX owners somehow get a "free ticket" now to something that took a lot of investment for others, it's an asshole move by Red towards loyal customers and in lack of better terms a pure lie that we would benefit from upgrading sooner. It would make the whole business model crumble, since it's based on customer loyalty and now with the new Helium sensor, we might hear that it would be best to upgrade as soon as possible and not wait. But if it wasn't true for the MX sensor, why would waiting not be good if we could possibly get a free ticket to Helium further down the road?

So, what am I disliking? Well, if Red enables an upgrade for MX owners to upgrade to an Epic-W with close to MG 6K specs for a fraction of what the cost was going from MX to Dragon to Weapon MG, that is an asshole move by them. It would make everything going forward with upgrading Red in the future be a wild west and any upgrade choice you make, however detailed and informed you are could be almost worthless in the long run.

The upgrades needs to be reasonable for all people and people expecting going from MX to Weapon 6K-like specs for a fraction of the cost is acting frankly a bit spoiled, screaming for more while expecting to get it for less. Jarred was specific in saying that if you don't upgrade from MX you will not be able to go forward. Now he is changing that by making something that will enable you to, but if that is anywhere close to a Weapon 6K there will be a lot of confusion among the others he said should upgrade in order to move forward.

If the MX upgrade to Epic-W is a Weapon with MX sensor, that would make sense and be reasonable. All Weapon upgrades, including Scarlet has been from Dragon sensors. Going from Epic MX to Weapon Dragon would be very strange to see.

But of course it's good for all people with MXs if this is true, but the trust with what Red says to their customers will go out the window.



Well, it's not. The CF is what the CF version of Epic Dragon was. It's powerful, but could do the same as the regular Epic. Yes, the MG can't do 4K ProRes but I think that format is a bit DOA. LUTs is also a bit unnecessary for that price jump. The MG Weapon is essentially the Epic Dragon with all the Weapon benefits. It's in my opinion the most return of investments you get among the upgrade options from Epic Dragon.

That makes sense. I understand the whole whoo yeah mx upgrade 1000K and 6000DR feeling you get.
I still believe that's not the case here. And if it is it will cost enough for most MX owners to not do the upgrade.
What you are saying makes sense a MX sensor in a weapon body. I mean with the new internals who knows what kind of improvments that will bring to MX.
Another possibility is a 4/5K cut of the new helium sensor in a weapon or maybe a diffrent body.
The fact that there maybe will be a upgrade path for MX is a gift from RED to peeps who couldn't spend the money then. Just like me I invested everything I had in a RED. In a late stadium, dragon was already out and about but couldn't afford it back then. When I had enough to upgrade to dragon the window was closed. So yeah I'm excited for what comes but I'm happy with litterly anything. MX sensor in weapon body? I say please

 

[Ugo Del]

I'm a bit tired of seeing "EPIC-W CONFIRMED! YEEAAH!" every time there's some news and I'm generally disliking illogical reasoning in general, it clogs up otherwise reasonable discussions. It's unreasonable to think that a simple upgrade from Epic MX to Epic-W would give a camera that's almost on par with a Weapon 6K which when comparing to the cost of the upgrade path for other people would be a unreasonable action by Red and would create a bit of stir among those who paid much more.

That is the other thing as well, investing into MG wasn't a bad call, but if others will be able to get to the front of the line with less invested into their upgrade it would look very bad since all everyone heard since the Dragon sensor came out has been to upgrade as soon as possible because it will pay off later and you can do it with less investments at the time of saying. If MX owners somehow get a "free ticket" now to something that took a lot of investment for others, it's an asshole move by Red towards loyal customers and in lack of better terms a pure lie that we would benefit from upgrading sooner. It would make the whole business model crumble, since it's based on customer loyalty and now with the new Helium sensor, we might hear that it would be best to upgrade as soon as possible and not wait. But if it wasn't true for the MX sensor, why would waiting not be good if we could possibly get a free ticket to Helium further down the road?

So, what am I disliking? Well, if Red enables an upgrade for MX owners to upgrade to an Epic-W with close to MG 6K specs for a fraction of what the cost was going from MX to Dragon to Weapon MG, that is an asshole move by them. It would make everything going forward with upgrading Red in the future be a wild west and any upgrade choice you make, however detailed and informed you are could be almost worthless in the long run.

The upgrades needs to be reasonable for all people and people expecting going from MX to Weapon 6K-like specs for a fraction of the cost is acting frankly a bit spoiled, screaming for more while expecting to get it for less. Jarred was specific in saying that if you don't upgrade from MX you will not be able to go forward. Now he is changing that by making something that will enable you to, but if that is anywhere close to a Weapon 6K there will be a lot of confusion among the others he said should upgrade in order to move forward.

If the MX upgrade to Epic-W is a Weapon with MX sensor, that would make sense and be reasonable. All Weapon upgrades, including Scarlet has been from Dragon sensors. Going from Epic MX to Weapon Dragon would be very strange to see.

But of course it's good for all people with MXs if this is true, but the trust with what Red says to their customers will go out the window.



Well, it's not. The CF is what the CF version of Epic Dragon was. It's powerful, but could do the same as the regular Epic. Yes, the MG can't do 4K ProRes but I think that format is a bit DOA. LUTs is also a bit unnecessary for that price jump. The MG Weapon is essentially the Epic Dragon with all the Weapon benefits. It's in my opinion the most return of investments you get among the upgrade options from Epic Dragon.

Red cameras are made to work with them and make money that way. If you see your camera as an investment trying to keep some value you're screwed, especially with Red. There's not much logic, rules are changing a lot. I would not be surprised with any move. As a 2011 first hour scarlet buyer, a first hour upgrader to dragon 2/3 years later, I was promised some kind of priority for the scarlet-w (first hours upgrader), and I just saw all the Raven new guys getting Scarlet-Ws in front of me. Well, Red knows that people here don't have much choice anyway. Not many competitors out there. It's just weird to see that many people are looking for the Alexa look, invested in Red because they can't afford Arri, upgraded again and again, and now get a camera which is losing a lot of its value the moment they buy it. If they had bought an Alexa or an Amira to start with years ago, with the money they invested in the Red ecosystem, they could still sell it for a very good price now. And anyway they would still shoot with it as 90% of the movies are still shot on 3k Arri sensors. So the only advice for a red owner is to make as much work as he can with his camera. Red is not a good investment if you don't make a lot of money with it.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That makes sense. I understand the whole whoo yeah mx upgrade 1000K and 6000DR feeling you get.
I still believe that's not the case here. And if it is it will cost enough for most MX owners to not do the upgrade.
What you are saying makes sense a MX sensor in a weapon body. I mean with the new internals who knows what kind of improvments that will bring to MX.
Another possibility is a 4/5K cut of the new helium sensor in a weapon or maybe a diffrent body.
The fact that there maybe will be a upgrade path for MX is a gift from RED to peeps who couldn't spend the money then. Just like me I invested everything I had in a RED. In a late stadium, dragon was already out and about but couldn't afford it back then. When I had enough to upgrade to dragon the window was closed. So yeah I'm excited for what comes but I'm happy with litterly anything. MX sensor in weapon body? I say please

Why this makes sense also is that if they manage to upgrade using the sensor from the Epic MX body you send in, there won't have to be any production of a sensor for you and it will reduce cost. It also makes sense because even if we always hear that Dragon is the better sensor, which it is, there are plenty of people who like the MX sensor and the look that it gives. Soderbergh, even if he went over to the Dragon sensor, said that he really liked the MX look, which is why Contagion and Side Effects wasn't graded to look different than from the look you get with MX. So MX in a Weapon body makes sense, both in terms of investment costs and in terms of keeping the look.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

But it's Helium comptible. Not sure with the lower models.

Pat

That part is awesome. I just meant as it currently stands it feels a bit awkward.

 

[Josh Becker]

Red cameras are made to work with them and make money that way. If you see your camera as an investment trying to keep some value you're screwed, especially with Red. There's not much logic, rules are changing a lot. I would not be surprised with any move. As a 2011 first hour scarlet buyer, a first hour upgrader to dragon 2/3 years later, I was promised some kind of priority for the scarlet-w (first hours upgrader), and I just saw all the Raven new guys getting Scarlet-Ws in front of me. Well, Red knows that people here don't have much choice anyway. Not many competitors out there. It's just weird to see that many people are looking for the Alexa look, invested in Red because they can't afford Arri, upgraded again and again, and now get a camera which is losing a lot of its value the moment they buy it. If they had bought an Alexa or an Amira to start with years ago, with the money they invested in the Red ecosystem, they could still sell it for a very good price now. And anyway they would still shoot with it as 90% of the movies are still shot on 3k Arri sensors. So the only advice for a red owner is to make as much work as he can with his camera. Red is not a good investment if you don't make a lot of money with it.

The upgrade priority had to have felt like a big slap in the face to Scarlet Dragon owners. Dudes who put down a $500 preorder on Raven already have their Scarlet-W but guys who have $20k+ invested in RED gear are still waiting. I assume that would make the "part of the family" thing feel like a load of bull.

 

[Andrei Goaga]

Because the upgrade lines for Dragon owners are still open it makes no sense that MX bodies will be upgraded to Helium for the same cost. For example, Scarlet Dragon user are at the bottom of the trade-in list for the Weapon upgrade. I am waiting for my MgW upgrade to get realocated and I really don't see an issue for MX owners to be able to upgrade to the same thing I can upgrade to. Even more for those that already had their Weapons for some time this should not be an issue. As long as we have more people paying RED for the latest tech and RED makes a profit out of this, I am happy. Because that only means more people paying for continuous inovation and is the best way going forward, inovating and pushing digital cinema to higher grounds.

 

[Ugo Del]

As long as we have more people paying RED for the latest tech and RED makes a profit out of this, I am happy. Because that only means more people paying for continuous inovation and is the best way going forward, inovating and pushing digital cinema to higher grounds.

Arri has the same sensor for years and no one can compete with its DR and colors. They made a 60mm diagonal sensor with the Alexa 65. Panasonic put native 800/5000iso in their cinema cameras. IMO they are pushing digital cinema in a better direction than just increasing resolution more and more. And just as a reminder, the first 4k camera was the Dalsa Origin, a few years before Red. I didn't see anyone complaining about the resolution of the Epic 5k until they announced the Epic Dragon 6k, then they announced 8k and people complained about 6k like if it was suddenly not enough. Now the new thing is smaller 3.6 micron pixels when I always heard that bigger pixels are better for DR and iso. It sounds like gear lust to me and I have to admit that Red is really good at feeding people with extra Ks.

 

[Phil Holland]

Arri has the same sensor for years and no one can compete with its DR and colors. They made a 60mm diagonal sensor with the Alexa 65. Panasonic put native 800/5000iso in their cinema cameras. IMO they are pushing digital cinema in a better direction than just increasing resolution more and more. And just as a reminder, the first 4k camera was the Dalsa Origin, a few years before Red. I didn't see anyone complaining about the resolution of the Epic 5k until they announced the Epic Dragon 6k, then they announced 8k and people complained about 6k like if it was suddenly not enough. Now the new thing is smaller 3.6 micron pixels when I always heard that bigger pixels are better for DR and iso. It sounds like gear lust to me and I have to admit that Red is really good at feeding people with extra Ks.

You are completely ignoring the fairly expansive color and dynamic range improvements of Dragon over Mysterium-X on the RED front. IR improvements that surpass the Arri Alev III tech as well.

Also ignoring the quad array layout of the Panasonic cameras and various other things, loss of DR beyond 60fps, etc., but I'll save that for off the air. I'm happy for them and they are good people.

 

[Ugo Del]

You are completely ignoring the fairly expansive color and dynamic range improvements of Dragon over Mysterium-X on the RED front. IR improvements that surpass the Arri Alev III tech as well.

Also ignoring the quad array layout of the Panasonic cameras and various other things, loss of DR beyond 60fps, etc., but I'll save that for off the air. I'm happy for them and they are good people.

I don't have any doubt that they are good people.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Well, it's not. The CF is what the CF version of Epic Dragon was. It's powerful, but could do the same as the regular Epic. Yes, the MG can't do 4K ProRes but I think that format is a bit DOA. LUTs is also a bit unnecessary for that price jump. The MG Weapon is essentially the Epic Dragon with all the Weapon benefits. It's in my opinion the most return of investments you get among the upgrade options from Epic Dragon.

Like I said, if it works for you business wise it makes sense. I'm glad thats the case for you. Obviously as an investment you'll be a staunch supporter of it. Just like you don't really care for certain posts in terms of how people want to see an Epic-W, and what it will become, it doesn't really seem to productive to me personally to constantly downplay the roles and great things that the camera you were able to upgrade from isn't able to do. As just as many can't make the jump, nor can they justify it.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Well now we know Epic-W is a real thing. And will be HELIUM powered. WOW!!!!!

 

[Scot Yount]

But I don't think we KNOW that the Epic-W (so to speak) which will be Helium powered has any relationship to the "we haven't forgotten about you" Epic MX folks.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Well now we know Epic-W is a real thing. And will be HELIUM powered. WOW!!!!!

This is not confirmed, only that there's an upgrade path for Epic MX owners. This kind of thing is what creates impossible and false hype.

 

[Brody_B]

This is not confirmed, only that there's an upgrade path for Epic MX owners. This kind of thing is what creates impossible and false hype.

Nope.

From Jarred "O... and Epic-W will be Helium"

Unless he is saying there is no new Epic-W body, just calling Epic MX with new Helium sensor Epic-W now.

Seems like a stretch bypassing Dragon all together.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Nope.

From Jarred "O... and Epic-W will be Helium"

Unless he is saying there is no new Epic-W body, just calling Epic MX with new Helium sensor Epic-W now.

Seems like a stretch bypassing Dragon all together.

Alright, sorry about that, missed that line.

But yeah, if MX owners get to bypass the entire stretch of upgrading costs that everyone else has gone through, that's not especially nice towards loyal upgrading customers who listened to Reds advice about upgrading. If MX owners can pay for upgrading right up to Helium 8K, we Weapon users who went all the way should get Helium for free, at least that's more reasonable for the amount of money we put out.

 

[Brody_B]

But yeah, if MX owners get to bypass the entire stretch of upgrading costs that everyone else has gone through, that's not especially nice towards loyal upgrading customers who listened to Reds advice about upgrading. If MX owners can pay for upgrading right up to Helium 8K, we Weapon users who went all the way should get Helium for free, at least that's more reasonable for the amount of money we put out.

TOTALLY AGREE

 

[Phil Holland]

Alright, sorry about that, missed that line.

But yeah, if MX owners get to bypass the entire stretch of upgrading costs that everyone else has gone through, that's not especially nice towards loyal upgrading customers who listened to Reds advice about upgrading. If MX owners can pay for upgrading right up to Helium 8K, we Weapon users who went all the way should get Helium for free, at least that's more reasonable for the amount of money we put out.

TOTALLY AGREE

Based on the tiered upgrade paths and different camera bodies RED has released specifically with the DSMC2 line-up I don't think they have any true intentions of screwing over anybody.

Remember not to panic.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Weapon users who went all the way should get Helium for free, at least that's more reasonable for the amount of money we put out.

Maybe we can wait for some specs before we start asking for a free upgrade. Other than pixel size, no specs have been given. I have had my Weapon since November and I have recouped the cost of it already in rentals. I follow the Chrsitopher Probst school of thought. Buy the top end and buy early. Then it is much easier to recoup your costs. I was one of the first in the PNW with EPIC-M, Dragon and Weapon and it has been worth it being first. It initially hurts the bank account, but it is worth it in the long run.

It is possible that by the time Epic-W ships, it may be cheaper. They are producing several DSMC2 cameras now. That volume may reduce cost of parts, which can then be passed on to the customers. Red did a big price drop with EPIC once. Weapon certainly cost more than I was expecting, but it's a business. I make money with it and it is a tax write-off. Do I wish it would have been cheaper? Hell yes! It many ways, Dragon felt like a new sensor in Weapon. The CMOS smear is basically gone. I just shot the Xyla chart, which is great at showing CMOS smear. I need to dig up my EPIC Dragon pics and then I will post the difference in the smear department. For a while, I thought that Weapon had a 2nd gen Dragon sensor in it based on the quality differences I was seeing.

At the end of the day, this is a first world problem. For me, I am pretty high up on the known list of 8K VV orders. Do I stay 8K VV or do I go Helium? Assuming I even have the option. If I go 8K VV, I already have someone interested in a month long rental. At the same time, I want the best possible quality pixels.

I am going to make an educated assumption. I assume that one might need the processing power of the CF Weapon to go 8K. Jarred said that Mg will have a path. That could mean upgrade the electronics to CF power and get new sensor. I don't really know and again, just an assumption. I don't know what the extra processing power in CF Weapon does. We know it is needed for 8K VV Dragon. Maybe processing 30+ megapixels needs that much power.

If we look at when Dragon was first announced and actually shipped, Helium is probably going to be in our hands long before we expected it. For Dragon it was basically announced in conversation because they were wearing Dragon t-shirts at NAB and they had no other signage. Then the next year they had the clean room. Then it eventually shipped, so it was announced over a year ahead of time. They have used NAB as a launch pad for new products and tech. Red has gotten so much better at holding off with info until its closer to shipping. It must be really difficult for Jarred to keep it to himself.

 

[Scot Yount]

Stacey,
Best (Non-Phil) post in a long time.