Epic-W Rental Price

[Patrick Tresch]

On some point I agree on other I must disagree ;-)

Yes the market is going to be over flood with Epic-W, but this is exactly what the policy of Red is. To get the best tech to the masses. So no need to cry if the rental prices will go down (or buy an over evaluated Alexa to make money).

BUT I wouldn't bet that the 8k data rates of an Helium will attract more people than the 6k Dragon, and up to today I didn't see the advertised increased in color fidelity and a higher DR of the Helium. It's, as of today, not like going from Mx to Dragon.

The only big one would be 4K 444 Prores direct out of the the Epic-W to skip the 8k Raw. Well it can deliver 444 4K in DNxHR...

Pat

 

[Björn Benckert]

On some point I agree on other I must disagree ;-)

Yes the market is going to be over flood with Epic-W, but this is exactly what the policy of Red is. To get the best tech to the masses. So no need to cry if the rental prices will go down (or buy an over evaluated Alexa to make money).

BUT I wouldn't bet that the 8k data rates of an Helium will attract more people than the 6k Dragon, and up to today I didn't see the advertised increased in color fidelity and a higher DR of the Helium. It's, as of today, not like going from Mx to Dragon.

The only big one would be 4K 444 Prores direct out of the the Epic-W to skip the 8k Raw. Well it can deliver 444 4K in DNxHR...

Pat

I only played with one test done with helium vs Alexa that I have at my office. But simply I can not really get +12800 ISO out of the weapon, it does not look good at those levels. But with helium it looks really pleasing when down sampled to UHD. Also helium at 10:1 leaves me with a better result then weapon at 5:1 when all is down sampled to UHD. When doing so helium leaves a smaller amount of data at the same sensor size.

So driven from the above you can say Helium make better picture and does so with less data at a higher resolution.... Yes difficult to grasp for most, was trying to explain this via mail for some producers this weekend... it lead to massive confusion and tomorrow morning they will all come over for a big meeting where I have to prove that 8k cost less in data and leaves a better picture. To me they can worry all they want but the proof is in the pudding. So simply they can choose picture with uggly amount of noise for one price and they can choose beautiful picture with fine noise and their post and storage costs will be the same. For us working from 8k raw is an insignificant difference from working from 6k raw as it only involves one render the rest is done in UHD.

Both cameras max out at 300MB/s and resolution beats compression. Simply if you double both, then your file size will remain the same but picture quality will increase, even more so if you later go trough a downsample step.

Show me 12800ISO weapon footage that compare. This is without any further processing, one of the frames has a lut on it but other than that its just no grading straight out of red cine with only iso adjusted.

download all to see full UHD: https://app.frame.io/d/jkShH9yt

 

[Jacob Ryan]

This is very useful. Thanks for the insight, Bjorn.

I only played with one test done with helium vs Alexa that I have at my office. But simply I can not really get +12800 ISO out of the weapon, it does not look good at those levels. But with helium it looks really pleasing when down sampled to UHD. Also helium at 10:1 leaves me with a better result then weapon at 5:1 when all is down sampled to UHD and when doing so helium leaves a smaller amount of data at the same sensor size.

So driven from the above you can say Helium make better picture and does so with less data at a higher resolution.... Yes difficult to grasp for most, was trying to explain this via mail for some producers this weekend... it lead to massive confusion and tomorrow morning they will all come over for a big meeting where I have to prove that 8k cost less in data and leaves a better picture. To me they can worry all they want but the proof is in the pudding. So simply they can choose picture with uggly amount of noise for one price and they can choose beautiful picture with fine noise and their post and storage costs will be the same. For us working from 8k raw is an insignificant difference from working from 6k raw as it only involves one render the rest is done in UHD.

Both cameras max out at 300MB/s and resolution beats compression. Simply if you double both, then your file size will remain the same but picture quality will increase, even more so if you later go trough a downsample step.

Show me 12800ISO weapon footage that compare. This is without any further processing, one of the frames has a lut on it but other than that its just no grading straight out of red cine with only iso adjusted.

download all to see full UHD: https://app.frame.io/d/jkShH9yt

 

[Nick Morrison]

Bjorn how are you exposing for Helium's higher midpoint of 1600-2000 ISO? (Ie outdoors and in studio environments).

Extra ND?

Motion mount?

Stopping down?

Skintone OLPF?

thx!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Also for long interviews we shoot a lot of 5K 8:1 on Dragon. Curious about Epic W 7K at 10:1, 12:1, and 16:1....for comparison.

 

[Evan B]

I only played with one test done with helium vs Alexa that I have at my office. But simply I can not really get +12800 ISO out of the weapon, it does not look good at those levels. But with helium it looks really pleasing when down sampled to UHD. Also helium at 10:1 leaves me with a better result then weapon at 5:1 when all is down sampled to UHD and when doing so helium leaves a smaller amount of data at the same sensor size.

So driven from the above you can say Helium make better picture and does so with less data at a higher resolution.... Yes difficult to grasp for most, was trying to explain this via mail for some producers this weekend... it lead to massive confusion and tomorrow morning they will all come over for a big meeting where I have to prove that 8k cost less in data and leaves a better picture. To me they can worry all they want but the proof is in the pudding. So simply they can choose picture with uggly amount of noise for one price and they can choose beautiful picture with fine noise and their post and storage costs will be the same. For us working from 8k raw is an insignificant difference from working from 6k raw as it only involves one render the rest is done in UHD.

Both cameras max out at 300MB/s and resolution beats compression. Simply if you double both, then your file size will remain the same but picture quality will increase, even more so if you later go trough a downsample step.

Show me 12800ISO weapon footage that compare. This is without any further processing, one of the frames has a lut on it but other than that its just no grading straight out of red cine with only iso adjusted.

download all to see full UHD: https://app.frame.io/d/jkShH9yt

Impressive results... Which OLPF were these shot with?

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Impressive results... Which OLPF were these shot with?

I second that question... So little noise. And what is that "Kodak" lut you're using?

 

[Thai Christen]

Bjorn how are you exposing for Helium's higher midpoint of 1600-2000 ISO? (Ie outdoors and in studio environments).

Extra ND?

Motion mount?

Stopping down?

Skintone OLPF?

thx!

I would like to know this too.

Seeing this results, I wish I had my Epic-W a month ago when I shot aerials with a Weapon CF 6K at night at Geneva International Airport.
Pushing to 5000 ISO with Weapon 6K seems to be the limit in terms of acceptable noise (for my personal taste) when downscale to 4K delivery.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Bart: I'd like to buy a RED Weapon. Here's 99 cents.


Comic Book Guy: [sighs] Allow me to summarize the proposed transaction. You wish to purchase a RED Weapon for 99 cents. Net profit to me: negative 59 dollars. [opens the cash register] Please take my 59 dollars, I don't want it, it's yours.


[Bart reaches forward to take the cash.]


Comic Book Guy: Eh-eh-eh--! Seeing as you are unfamiliar with sarcasm, I shall close the cash register at this point, and state that 99 cents is the rental price.


Bart: Then may I please rent it, please?


Comic Book Guy: No, you may not. I am all out, though I do have a surprising abundance of Canon 5D's.

 

[Paul Watt]

We'll rent a basic Epic-W package at $1750 CDN per day in Vancouver. Everything for pretty much any shoot, without lenses, filters, etc. A full package with Movi M15, Epic-W, Easyrig, Readyrig, power and media/ Bartech/Teradek 1000ft will run $2500 CDN/day. Operator is $1000/10. Secondary Op is $850/10. Everything based on 3 day weeks except for operators of course. Those are pretty standard rates, in Vancouver, and there's no way we'd undercut that unless you were a close friend. I also produce things, and I make a note of undercutters, and will never ever hire them.

 

[Michael Hoffman]

Wow. I'm glad to hear you can charge those kinds of prices there

Even with the conversion...I'm IATSE - and rates in our market - especially L.A. - aren't anywhere NEAR that!

Here - I can grab a 3 TON grip truck (tungsten - not HMI) - with a fantastic gaffer - for about $1200 a day.

Day rate on operators runs from $450 to $550 for the job. That's union.

As I said - despite the complaints - this does exist - and it's where I've been renting my 2nd cameras from - even if you get it for 3 days - you're still talking LESS than your one day rate there! - https://www.borrowlenses.com/product/RED-EPIC-W-8K?source=auto-suggest

I've never considered charging the going rate undercutting... If Borrow Lenses charges X for 7 days (and you lose 2 for shipping) - I'll do the same generally (including my lenses) - plus a bit additional for the lost time there. It's helped our small studio stay afloat.

To me - if I rent a camera for a month to shoot a feature - I should be in - tops - about 1/3 the cost of the package. If not - production will just buy the package themselves - shoot and then flip it. That's been the case on every job I've been hired.

I'm out $27K for our base package...

Now; of course - if someone wants Gold Mount or V Mount batteries (I have both plates) - we charge per piece of gear.

But - like I said above - I'll see what the actual going rate is. Down here - almost none of the rental houses - that are still sitting at $900 a day for full Dragon packages - are renting them at a discount - or; most days - they are not moving. People have been renting them on line and bringing them to set - or staffing a crew member (operator/DP/Gimbal OP/DIT) - that owns a camera - so you get a great deal. And that is what we have to compete with. One of the 1st Red Epic W videos went up yesterday; and I noticed it was shot 30 miles from house in Palm Beach. There's just so many down here - it negates the prices lower accross the board.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Man, glad I don't live in Miami or LA, crazy low rates

 

[Michael Hoffman]

Wow... I'm salaried - with an editorial job - and don't make nearly that amount - but I enjoy my work - and my wife and I live within our means - so no complaints there at all.

Most people consider $600 a day (general large Miami shoots) - fantastic rates for a camera operator. And the national commercials i've produced - they expect a rate of $500 a day per grip... and generally $400 for operators. That's all of them. Even the biggest shows (and I have been local coordinator/producer on some major commercials/infomercials).

Even on the films I've been on budgeted over $1 mil (high end cable content) - we've never spent $1K a day for operators...(operating with about $350K per week) Top end gaffer - maybe. These sound like the kind of rates I hear about on $100 mil Hollywood shows... not State Farm commercials - etc.

But - if there's someone that can recommend me where to send my camera to live - to rent for these rates - I'll gladly partner with a rental house or operator for a shared income on this unit

Our studio has a 2nd RED - so this was more my personal camera.

In checking prices - at the RED Authorized Rental Houses (which Borrow Lenses is one) - even in the pricey Manhattan area - packages much, much larger than I'm renting - are only $300 a day more than I'm discussing - and they including all kinds of accessories I just don't have in this package. Plus - if your unit goes down - they can replace it - which I also just can't offer - so I'm not sure how to charge the same as those guys...

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Wow... I'm salaried - with an editorial job - and don't make nearly that amount - but I enjoy my work - and my wife and I live within our means - so no complaints there at all.

Most people consider $600 a day (general large Miami shoots) - fantastic rates for a camera operator. And the national commercials i've produced - they expect a rate of $500 a day per grip... and generally $400 for operators. That's all of them. Even the biggest shows (and I have been local coordinator/producer on some major commercials/infomercials).

Even on the films I've been on budgeted over $1 mil (high end cable content) - we've never spent $1K a day for operators...(operating with about $350K per week) Top end gaffer - maybe. These sound like the kind of rates I hear about on $100 mil Hollywood shows... not State Farm commercials - etc.

But - if there's someone that can recommend me where to send my camera to live - to rent for these rates - I'll gladly partner with a rental house or operator for a shared income on this unit

Our studio has a 2nd RED - so this was more my personal camera.

In checking prices - at the RED Authorized Rental Houses (which Borrow Lenses is one) - even in the pricey Manhattan area - packages much, much larger than I'm renting - are only $300 a day more than I'm discussing - and they including all kinds of accessories I just don't have in this package. Plus - if your unit goes down - they can replace it - which I also just can't offer - so I'm not sure how to charge the same as those guys...

Man, you don't have to justify your business strategy to any of us. Haters gonna hate because you charge less than them, and haters gonna hate because you charge more than them. You just need to not give a fuck about it.

 

[Michael Hoffman]

I understand that; I've been working (quietly) for 10+ years in this business... Union for 7 now.

Just - I'm in no way looking to make enemies on the forums; nor in the field. The few close friendships that I have made with crew members over the years - I treasure dearly.

I'm new to these forums - and thought they were a chance for all of us out there - to discuss shop. From shooting; to business - etc - without slamming others (or - being "haters" - as you said).

Best!

 

[Evan B]

Wow. I'm glad to hear you can charge those kinds of prices there

Even with the conversion...I'm IATSE - and rates in our market - especially L.A. - aren't anywhere NEAR that!

Here - I can grab a 3 TON grip truck (tungsten - not HMI) - with a fantastic gaffer - for about $1200 a day.

Day rate on operators runs from $450 to $550 for the job. That's union.

As I said - despite the complaints - this does exist - and it's where I've been renting my 2nd cameras from - even if you get it for 3 days - you're still talking LESS than your one day rate there! - https://www.borrowlenses.com/product/RED-EPIC-W-8K?source=auto-suggest

I've never considered charging the going rate undercutting... If Borrow Lenses charges X for 7 days (and you lose 2 for shipping) - I'll do the same generally (including my lenses) - plus a bit additional for the lost time there. It's helped our small studio stay afloat.

To me - if I rent a camera for a month to shoot a feature - I should be in - tops - about 1/3 the cost of the package. If not - production will just buy the package themselves - shoot and then flip it. That's been the case on every job I've been hired.

I'm out $27K for our base package...

Now; of course - if someone wants Gold Mount or V Mount batteries (I have both plates) - we charge per piece of gear.

But - like I said above - I'll see what the actual going rate is. Down here - almost none of the rental houses - that are still sitting at $900 a day for full Dragon packages - are renting them at a discount - or; most days - they are not moving. People have been renting them on line and bringing them to set - or staffing a crew member (operator/DP/Gimbal OP/DIT) - that owns a camera - so you get a great deal. And that is what we have to compete with. One of the 1st Red Epic W videos went up yesterday; and I noticed it was shot 30 miles from house in Palm Beach. There's just so many down here - it negates the prices lower accross the board.

Don't forget about half days, that's an advantage that companies like borrowlenses don't have. I have a lot of clients that try to cut costs by scheduling half days. If you use an online rental company model in a local atmosphere, there could be complications.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

You do half day rentals? I have never seen anybody doing that, not a owner op or a full rental house.

 

[Michael Hoffman]

I only have had half-days on stuff where I'm the owner/operator - and it's literally a 4 hour gig - but good call

Definitely.

Best!

 

[Evan B]

You do half day rentals? I have never seen anybody doing that, not a owner op or a full rental house.

If you're an operator/DP and you're offering a packaged deal, I feel that half day rates are acceptable.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I occasionally, but definitely not often, will do a half day rate on my own time. but if you want my camera I don't do half day rentals. Its too much work to prep it, deliver it to you, check it when it gets back, and there is the risk associated with a rental.