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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic vs F65

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Interesting how similar the cameras are in resolution! The F65 has some more light sensitivity, but I guess Dragon will keep the Epic on par and beyond in that respect. And I agree, the wide shot looks more natural on the Epic. Cool.
 
Lets not forget that film cameras were/are boxes that hold a lens, and pass a photochemical emulusion behind a focal point of that lens..
they really are not that different in effect from one maker to another. the basics were designed between 1910 and 1950 or so...
new models changed the ergonimics of use, not the process of creating the images.

Now, they are computers that process information from light landing on a photoreceptor. And the image creation process changes every 1-24 months.
 
Harry Clark said:
Many of the quirky hidden adjustments of the Epic menu are needlessly "insider" in nature and not intuitive.
Changing the white balance in precise increments, or adjusting the tint, is a daunting task for a newcomer. Hold down on the touchscreen? Up on the Redmote knob? How about if all options are simply available as soon as you click on the color temperature?
Tapping the screen outside of the box you are working in to "enter" the item is not intuitive. Why not a simple "enter" box?
If we are shooting 23.98, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE have the fps indicator at the upper left say so, not 24, which is a different frame rate. This in particular is a pet peeve of mine..
I know that screen real estate on the EVF and LCD is limited but the cryptic "information" abbreviations don't tell us much. What is "OFF"? And why is it sometimes lit up? (I know it's LUT on or off, but why not make it say something like "709", "RC3", "RAW", depending on what mode you are in?)
Many of us still don't like a histogram versus a waveform. What would be the harm in making that an option, showing values based on the current ISO, gamma, and look settings? Handy for greenscreen work in particular, and as has been pointed out in other threads, the camera's "p" only output disables some third party monitors' built in waveform capabilities. While I'm at it, we could make that waveform bigger by getting rid of the traffic light. What on god's green earth could be the point of knowing that x percent of one channel is clipping?
I could go on, but again if we are going to make a meaningful discussion that will effect changes in the GUI, it may be best to start another thread. Give it a go and I will spend a quiet hour with an Epic and make a list.
Cheers,
Harry
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Agree with every single point. At least 23.989 is displayed in the latest build.
 
ALLSTAR said:
My test:

EPIC
A001_C004_0314UG.jpg

E-3.jpg

E-2.jpg

E-1.jpg


3200K ISO3200
Eiso3200.jpg



F65
FILE0000003500000.jpg

F-3.jpg

F-2.jpg

F-1.jpg


3200K ISO3200
Fiso32002.jpg
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Holy shit.
Dragon sensor ASAP, please.
 
Looking at those examples I can't believe that anyone could come to any conclusion other than the F65 looks way, way better in all respects!
I know this is a Red forum, and I've been massively impressed with Epic, but come on, it's not even close.
Of course this is just one test, and there may be many variable involved making it not 100% fair or scientific.
Steve
Hang on, where's the emoticon for hiding behind a wall....:emote_couch: ahh, there we are, a couch will do!
 
+1.... The service is great, upgrades are awesome, modules are cheap, firmware is often, support is supporting, and soon the Dragon will be here and you all can stop saying that the F65 has more dynamic range, or better in low light. I'm sure the F65 is good for something, I just don't know what... At least a DSLR is a small form factor so you could say that you could use that when you can't use a RED camera. Or a phantom camera is good for high speed shots. But I guess the F65 can be good for when you feel like spending a bunch more money, and getting less?? I'm not a RED only guy, I believe in using the right tools for the job, but the EPIC does everything the F65 does and more, so that's maybe why I'm a little confused about the argument...
BTW whoever let the guy who said he always has a problem with firmware, use or rent the camera with a beta release on it is just special. I never upgrade firmware until it's solid, and for sure never before someone else is going to use it.

Paul Ellington said:
The point that ends it for me and if I may be so bold as to speak for a few other RED EPIC owners I know, is things that do in fact matter.

1 SIZE

2 BANG little gun big...

3 Big Price Dif.

4 Upgradability, and if Sony does offer this which was rumored if would be a first for that company.

5 I'm all for more rez. right now 5K with 6K coming is enough. People are already screaming about proxy recoders now you want a giant camera or are discussing it rationally on REDUser ... A little odd...

Plus, extra latitude, FPS, improvements all the time via firmware updates.

And so much control in post... I could go on but folks are arguing for the other camera, which as Mr. Jannard said is a worthy competitor, but still in my life it's a no contest from the giddy-up...

Lastly... Editing systems are building around R3D,... the writing is on the wall but you don't have to learn how to read.

This is my opinion.

I love RED.

- Ellington
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I shot with an F65 couple days ago.

Its Dynamic range is astonishing. I mean, sony says 14 stops, but its seriously more like 16. the High/Low RAW view really shows that off. I joked that lenses wont need apertures any more....

That said its REALLLLY big, complicated, convoluted and heavy. It handles very well on the shoulder however, it has great balance. I got home from the test, and hugged my Epic. The F65 currently has small advantage over the epic in Sensitivity, native DR and resolution, but the Epic is close enough that for the benefits in size, ease of use, savings in weight, workflow and flexibility (framerates), makes it my choice. When dragon drops, i feel the current advantages of the F65 are going to be null.
 
Timur Civan said:
That said its REALLLLY big, complicated, convoluted and heavy. It handles very well on the shoulder however, it has great balance. I got home from the test, and hugged my Epic. The F65 currently has small advantage over the epic in Sensitivity, native DR and resolution, but the Epic is close enough that for the benefits in size, ease of use, savings in weight, workflow and flexibility (framerates), makes it my choice. When dragon drops, i feel the current advantages of the F65 are going to be null.
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+1, I think I'd pretty much agree with all of that.

Steve
 
I was recently on set with a local reduser who right in the middle of a 5 day shoot upgraded his firmware to a beta release even after I told him not to do it. He being the EPIC owner and me being the SCARLET owner, I guess he decided that he knew best. Well he did it anyway, and hit a bunch of glitches, and the DP whom we flew in from Cali was a few times so upset he was physically flustered and everyone on set could tell that he wasn't happy. I wanted to punch the other guy for giving RED a bad name. I try to avoid Murphy at all times, and not upgrading to a beta build right in the middle of a shoot was a pretty good way to do that.
 
A good tale, worth taking note. The new features in new builds are usually just so appealing, they can be hard to resist!

Is there an official point at which a beta build becomes a stable one? Or is it just user comments and fixes until its decided that it's pretty much 100% stable? And how long is this usually?

Steve
 
Steve Phillipps said:
Looking at those examples I can't believe that anyone could come to any conclusion other than the F65 looks way, way better in all respects!
I know this is a Red forum, and I've been massively impressed with Epic, but come on, it's not even close.
Of course this is just one test, and there may be many variable involved making it not 100% fair or scientific.
Steve
Hang on, where's the emoticon for hiding behind a wall....:emote_couch: ahh, there we are, a couch will do!
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I completely disagree. The differences between F65 and Epic are minor. I would have no issue choosing the Epic over F65 on any project based on the examples above.
 
Jon Jones said:
I was recently on set with a local reduser who right in the middle of a 5 day shoot upgraded his firmware to a beta release even after I told him not to do it. He being the EPIC owner and me being the SCARLET owner, I guess he decided that he knew best. Well he did it anyway, and hit a bunch of glitches, and the DP whom we flew in from Cali was a few times so upset he was physically flustered and everyone on set could tell that he wasn't happy. I wanted to punch the other guy for giving RED a bad name. I try to avoid Murphy at all times, and not upgrading to a beta build right in the middle of a shoot was a pretty good way to do that.
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Recent major problems were with a release build. Who would you punch in that instance?
 
Definitely the next door neighbor in that instance. I don't really like him anyway, and his trashcan spilled into the street the other day and didn't clean it up. Either way you don't switch firmware in the middle of a shoot. Well I don't at least, you may though Mark.

Mark Pugh said:
Recent major problems were with a release build. Who would you punch in that instance?
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I think the Epic is the best all around high quality camera in the world right now. Are there cameras out there that preform better in some areas? YES. Phantom Cameras do shoot more fps, IMAX has higher res., film cameras still have a look to them that is a little different, you can do a better time lapse with a 5D, and you can run and gun better using a AF100. With that being said Epic isn't that far off any of those cameras in those fields. Also at any given moment RED has the balls and capability to come out with something that you can purchase for your camera or editing system that will make it better. Like the Dragon Sensor.

.1% of productions out there could really use a F65 over an Epic. That .1% could also easily choose Epic and be just as stoked in the end. On the other hand there are endless reason to shoot Epic over F65. Im not going to give examples, as they have already been mention.

What if a executive producer came up to you and said, "I have a 10 million dollar budget to produce a film. You have to choose the camera your going to shoot it with, without knowing anything other than the budget for the job". Meaning you don't even know if it's going to be shot inside or outside or both, you don't even know if its an action film or a heavy dialog drama or a documentary, you don't know any anything other than you get 10 million to do it and you have to choose one camera.

I would choose Epic. The camera preforms at the highest levels in so many aspects. There is not another camera that comes close. Just cameras that specialize in one area a little more.
 
dustin lindgren said:
I think the Epic is the best all around high quality camera in the world right now.
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I agree, and for all the reason you talk about.
But, I still say that if anyone looks at those example stills and doesn't see that the F65 is sharper, has more DR and less noise than they need either a new monitor or a slightly less Red-tinted view of the world. Again though, maybe it was an unfair test, bad focus on the Epic or whatever, I'm only commenting on those stills.
Steve
 
I just hope the Dragon delivers at this level or even better, if so I'd be very very happy man. Bit sharper, more DR and tad bit more appealing noise in the shadows (esp. blue channel).
 
How much is the F65 (shootable)? I thought it was 4k max? How is it cleaner/sharper than Epic 5k after supersampling down to 4k?
 
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