EPIC STAGE Clarification and update

[Stephen Lovett]

Hi Mark,

I agree with you.

But to bring Jarred's comments full circle. I'm like many people here am one of those folks who's had a deposit down on a stage two Epic for some time now. I might be a bit more patient as I have an engineering background so I have a keen appreciation of just how complicated getting this camera released is. (and more impressive yet is the size, the thing is an engineering masterwork.)

So while I have been waiting patiently, with occasional patches of grumpiness, when the opportunity to enter the M program was broadened, for anybody not just the big boys, I ran some numbers winced a couple of times and pulled the trigger.

In the final analysis even without the benefit of the huge discount stage 2 provides, the M at M prices is still a value proposition that simply can't be matched in the marketplace.

I for one have been pretty quiet of late because Red's done everything they can given the circumstances, there isn't any new information, and getting bitchy doesn't help anybody.

I also run my own business (again like many of us) so I further understand that the worst situation possible is to have a product 95% done, all the capex spent, and be blocked on selling it / getting paid while burning through capital everyday while my production hardware sits idling. Ugh

Does it suck that it's so late, well yes. Is there any reasonable thing that RED isn't doing to solve the problem. I really cant think of anything. The M program provides an option for anybody who "needs" the camera now.

Even if you are just a little production company.

Woot!

 

[Paul S.]

I can't believe some of the negative comments here from Stage 2 folks. Is this a wind-up? The stage 2 program strikes me as unbelievably generous. Those who feel they've got a raw deal should just sell their reservation to people who recognise this (for a tidy return on this modest investment) and get on with their lives... don't let the door hit you on your way out. Sheesh.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Come When it may I am patiently waiting...just hoping it does come beffore a feature I might shoot that the director wants to shoot on a 5D if the X has not yet shipped....



That will be a sad day for me...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Stage 2 and Stage 3 kind of have it made. When I see what kind of images this camera is delivering right now, and think about the trade-in deal, it's a bit crazy. Basically you're getting the camera for a bargain. Many people have made their money back on their R1s, some many times over. For example, in Stage 3, trade up the body get a $17K trade-in. Now, in my case, I'd be trading in an M-X R1, so even if I say it's only a $12K trade-in, it means I'm getting an Epic (retails at $28K) plus a few key accessories for $10K. No doubt there's more investment to be made (Media, new accessories, etc) but for what you are getting, even if you have to spend an additional $10K, this is the best digital cinema camera I have seen yet. If RED had not changed the paradigm on camera pricing back in 2007, this camera might be selling for $100K or more, easily.

In terms of frustration waiting, I understand why some might be getting anxious. But patience will pay off, I guarantee you, especially if this camera is something you plan on shooting, and not just renting out. That deposit you put down, you will forget all about that after a couple of shoots.

 

[Felix K.]

incredible.. i read a post and get depressed for a moment.. then i read 3 posts over 3 minutes by 3 friends.. and all is good in the world again. Thanks guys

Good to hear that it works both ways. Have a great day, Jarred!

 

[Steve Johnson]

Let me make a point from the Stage 4 people - like me.

I have invested in REDucation in LA, done a few RED shoots and in all fairness have the money to drop on a RED One now if I wanted, but I prefer to wait for EPIC. I know what the MX can do and that is an amazing piece of equipment. EPIC I know is better. Do I have the money for an EPIC-M - well not yet, plus there is no guarantee that I would be accepted for one, so yes, I am at the end of the line with many others. I take my hat off to all you guys who have been in this since the start and applaud you all for placing deposits early for the likes of stage 2 etc. If I joined the party earlier by actually hearing of RED early on, then I would have plumped and taken the chance. Instead, I joined the party late. I have no regrets. With all my dealings with RED, they have been nothing but up front and helpful.

EPIC-X will arrive at some point soon. I just look at it that if you have the MX, you are making a living and producing world class images from these camera. Would it be nice for everyone to have an EPIC right now, yes. Then the "real world" scenario hits. If you look at the UK, at the amount of businesses going into administration and people getting laid off, then I am grateful that RED still exists because of the leadership of Jim, Jarred and the RED Teams around the world. The EPIC delay is NOT their fault and I applaud the entire RED team for their openness as to the state of play of things. There is no conspiracy that I can see to selling EPIC-M and potentially not making a dime on them. If you look at the number of people who currently don't own a RED, who are waiting to buy their first RED, be it a EPIC-X, EPIC-S or Scarlet, then there is so much more to gain by being able to release these products when the parts are available. I believe Jim and Jarred when they say they have these discussions on a daily basis and that they want these to be available to everyone as soon as they can, least not for the reason so Jarred can stop getting stresses at these posts asking for dates, times, prices, etc.

As for productions, RED has learnt ALOT over the short time, both on the technical side but also on the production side. BOMB EVF's are starting to fly out the door as well as REDVolts. This is a very good sign. From the bits of information that Jim and Jarred give us about the production line, I think there is something impressive that we are all not seeing. I think RED has an awesome production line ready and that we will see EPIC-X turned out ALOT quicker that RED Ones every where. Jim must be confident to think that even if they started EPIC-X at the end of July, that all Stage 3 orders would be done by end of September, take that could be in the region of 4000 - 5000 EPIC-X a month - thats impressive.

If you've ever been to the RED HQ at Lake Forest, then you'll know that they have the space for this type of production line. I remember Jarred walking us through the warehouse after REDucation #003 and was more than generous with his time and if that's where they are building them, then there has to be some impressive stuff there waiting for the "Illusive 18" parts to arrive.

EPIC-X wil arrive soon, in the mean time, keep working with the great tools that RED has given us all. For me, it just means I have more money to hand over for more toys...

Here endith the sermon of the Stage 4 waitee...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Jarred, is Stage 2 still as described in post 1 of this thread? I recall that stage 2 would either be further modified, or we'd have a stage2 "B" option that would be different somehow (such as taking away something and instead getting the side handle).

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Not announced yet Shawn, but heaven bless ya for asking...

Things I want for my X's

Titanium PL Mount
Side Handle
SSD Module
Pro I/O
Pro Redmote
4 Red Volts (ability to buy 8 to 12)

RED ANAMORPHICS!

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Seems that there is truth to both sides of this argument about RED not having the parts to make the Epic X's and them wanting to make money off of the Epic M's off those willing to pay more for the cameras. But it seems that a lot of people are really angry with how RED is choosing to deal with people. I have heard a couple stories from people that make me really mad and I know they are true because I hear them first hand. I do believe that RED should do something to make this all right with all the Stage 2 people. Do I think they will do something like this...not really. But I guess its something we all signed on for. The door is always there for us to walk out I guess.

How quickly we all get spoiled. I haven't heard any complaints from Stage 2 holders myself, but I don't doubt that they're out there.

I don't believe that Red owes the Stage 2 people anything more than they have already graciously and generously promised us. The only way I can help Red right now is by not being an ungrateful and impatient client.

 

[Andrew Walker]

It would be great for you to elaborate on "people are really angry with how RED is choosing to deal with people " Andrew... what more could we do?

Give people a HUGE discount on Stage 2? wait.. we are already doing that.

Give people a better camera with more features than when they signed up for Stage 2? wait.. already doing that as well.

Offer to sell people that can't wait a hand made machined incredibly-expensive-to-make camera that costs us more and more money to make as the days go on and the parts get more expensive? wait.. we are doing that as well.

Do people realize how much money it costs us to keep the lights on and keep our employees and engineers fed while we sit here NOT selling EPIC-X's?

Sometimes I wonder why we bother...

I can't elaborate on the people that are angry because if they wanted to share their story they would have. But of course if they did I'm sure the post would be deleted because when I heard it I was surprised and it has given me the current bad taste I have in my mouth for RED right now. Just to be clear, I love the products that RED puts out and I really do believe that RED is changing the industry for the better. But the way RED chooses to do business with its non A-list filmmakers is what has made me mad.

I understand that what was originally promised to us RED owners was a really good deal. But once you guys started letting people skip the line for double the price of the camera, that's when a lot of people started getting really mad. Of course most of those people are scared to speak up because they have been told to keep quiet or else. Its just a really horrible way to interact with customers.

If you want people to better understand how much an Epic M costs give us a list of parts and a price along with them. I just find it hard to believe that RED would be selling a camera at a huge loss to themselves.

So you asked what more could you do. Stop treating people that disagree with the way you do business as stupid. Try putting yourself in the place of the people that have been waiting for Epic this long. It would be one thing to wait on a camera that was still being worked on and not out in the field. But when you have James Cameron buying 50 Epics or whatever it was, that is bullshit.

Again to reiterate, the products that RED has are second to none. But you guys need to work on your people skills.

 

[A. Clint Litton]

While I can understand the sentiment you've expressed with regards to line-jumping, Andrew, I don't think it's simple enough to say giving a filmmaker like James Cameron the option to buy 50 Epics is a bullshit move. I think that by giving some of these big-timers a chance to push the Epic and it's software, the result will eventually be that it pays dividends - in the form of technological and feature-set advancements - to all of us future owners. If MX hadn't gone to work on big time features like The Social Network or Pirates 4, we might not have witnessed so many great advancements in terms of color science, etc., and that's no small thing. This forum has been a good place for people to give the developers at Red some feature requests and such, and I'm sure the Epic in its current form would not be the same if it had been developed behind closed doors, which I think already speaks volumes about the way Jim & co. do business....but let's face it, when someone like Peter Jackson or James Cameron call Jim up and say "it'd be really great if the camera could do X, Y, or Z," chances are they will listen up and, down the road, it's something that will be incorporated into a camera system that we all can own and therefore take advantage of these improvements. If that means I have to wait a little longer for my camera, I can live with that.

Having said that, sure, wouldn't it have been great if they said "Stage 2 deposit holders, here's the situation, we'll give you the option of carrying that deposit over into being considered for M ownership." But you can't say that they haven't shown at least some favoritism if a lot of the people who were there at the beginning and have been very vocal supporters of the cameras are getting chosen when surely there's a mile-long list of people who want M's. I do wish there was at least a method of making a case for M consideration when submitting that request through Red.com (though I guess the way to do that would be sending a letter to Kelly in the first place), so they might be able to better decide how to allocate those cameras, even if the potential recipient hasn't been on their radar via the forum or personal communication with the company. For better or worse, this is how they're doing it, and I doubt we'll see them change it up now. My personal feeling on the matter is that they were probably so caught up in dealing with the parts shortages due to the tsunami that they spent less time sussing out the methodology by which they got cameras to customers. And as far as I'm concerned, the fact that they've been able to ship nearly 1000 Epics makes me happy, because I think it keeps the competition scrambling to keep up.

Of course, if I knew what you know, maybe I'd feel differently, but I do think that overall, they've at least attempted to be fair in dealing with customers, and that's got to count for something.

 

[Eric Ulbrich]

Stop treating people that disagree with the way you do business as stupid. Try putting yourself in the place of the people that have been waiting for Epic this long. It would be one thing to wait on a camera that was still being worked on and not out in the field. But when you have James Cameron buying 50 Epics or whatever it was, that is bullshit.

When one of the greatest filmmakers on the planet asks you to jump for him the only answer you should ever give is "how high sir?" and I believe that is what RED did.

Seriously, your comparing us, the indie filmmakers to an filmmaker like Cameron?? Its not bullshit at all; do you think Panavision, Arri or any other imaging company would deny a filmmaker like Cameron over you or me?

Im going to step up on my soapbox here and I apologize for it, please be clear that theres opinions are my own entirely.

Ive been reading some of these posts lately and honestly is a bit ridiculous guys, lets be clear;

RED DOESNT OWE ANYBODY ANYTHING. In fact were quite lucky to have been given something that is cheap enough we can own that is being used with the biggest of the big film makers today is unlike anything we have experience in this industy.

So RED's client list has grown a bit and some people are feeling left out of the game, welcome to growth and business, times change.

People dont understand that even though RED doesn't owe them anything, RED still is going to deliver because people like Jim and Jarred believe in running a company and treating their clients like family, not a paycheck.

I understand that some posts on the forum get deleted (ive had some too!) but this is a massive forum with over 40,000 users and 3/4 of a million posts on it. As it is the first and most immediate access that RED has to its customers, its THEIR RIGHT AS IT IS THERE SPACE to delete some stuff. Honestly some of the FUD and dirty laundry that gets aired out to the world on this site is whats really Bullshit.

So more EPIC-M's have gone out in the field, big deal, people are waiting, it happens, its happened to me as well!
They way I look at it more M's equals a better production run with more robust solid software; which benefits us all.

Andrew, your a really cool dude and I really have enjoyed working with you on projects, but just relax a little bit; its not like jim an jarred meet every morning in a saloon in secret and discuss how they are going to make a killing by selling a limited amount of cameras on a small volume at an inflated buying and assembly price to a select group of people, AND going to screw over the rest of us by not selling the product they are making for us? come on...

come to think of it...the Saloon part just might be true

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

Again to reiterate, the products that RED has are second to none. But you guys need to work on your people skills.

And exactly what company can you point to that has better people skills? Do you see many Sony or Canon executives on forums answering their customers questions and concerns? This is just silly.

 

[ericyoung]

...
If you want people to better understand how much an Epic M costs give us a list of parts and a price along with them. I just find it hard to believe that RED would be selling a camera at a huge loss to themselves.

So you asked what more could you do. Stop treating people that disagree with the way you do business as stupid. Try putting yourself in the place of the people that have been waiting for Epic this long. It would be one thing to wait on a camera that was still being worked on and not out in the field. But when you have James Cameron buying 50 Epics or whatever it was, that is bullshit.

Again to reiterate, the products that RED has are second to none. But you guys need to work on your people skills.

No business would ever give you a full cost breakdown of their products, because that's commercially sensitive and in any case it's in constant flux right now. Also, the product parts cost doesn't take into account the company overheads such as wages, building maintenance, and the milion other costs associated with running a company. They probably aren't making a loss with the Epic-M but I can believe their margins weren't huge and are now being eroded by scarcity of parts.

 

[Andrew Walker]

And exactly what company can you point to that has better people skills? Do you see many Sony or Canon executives on forums answering their customers questions and concerns? This is just silly.

No, but I don't see them dishing out threats either.

 

[Andrew Walker]

While I can understand the sentiment you've expressed with regards to line-jumping, Andrew, I don't think it's simple enough to say giving a filmmaker like James Cameron the option to buy 50 Epics is a bullshit move. I think that by giving some of these big-timers a chance to push the Epic and it's software, the result will eventually be that it pays dividends - in the form of technological and feature-set advancements - to all of us future owners. If MX hadn't gone to work on big time features like The Social Network or Pirates 4, we might not have witnessed so many great advancements in terms of color science, etc., and that's no small thing. This forum has been a good place for people to give the developers at Red some feature requests and such, and I'm sure the Epic in its current form would not be the same if it had been developed behind closed doors, which I think already speaks volumes about the way Jim & co. do business....but let's face it, when someone like Peter Jackson or James Cameron call Jim up and say "it'd be really great if the camera could do X, Y, or Z," chances are they will listen up and, down the road, it's something that will be incorporated into a camera system that we all can own and therefore take advantage of these improvements. If that means I have to wait a little longer for my camera, I can live with that.

Having said that, sure, wouldn't it have been great if they said "Stage 2 deposit holders, here's the situation, we'll give you the option of carrying that deposit over into being considered for M ownership." But you can't say that they haven't shown at least some favoritism if a lot of the people who were there at the beginning and have been very vocal supporters of the cameras are getting chosen when surely there's a mile-long list of people who want M's. I do wish there was at least a method of making a case for M consideration when submitting that request through Red.com (though I guess the way to do that would be sending a letter to Kelly in the first place), so they might be able to better decide how to allocate those cameras, even if the potential recipient hasn't been on their radar via the forum or personal communication with the company. For better or worse, this is how they're doing it, and I doubt we'll see them change it up now. My personal feeling on the matter is that they were probably so caught up in dealing with the parts shortages due to the tsunami that they spent less time sussing out the methodology by which they got cameras to customers. And as far as I'm concerned, the fact that they've been able to ship nearly 1000 Epics makes me happy, because I think it keeps the competition scrambling to keep up.

Of course, if I knew what you know, maybe I'd feel differently, but I do think that overall, they've at least attempted to be fair in dealing with customers, and that's got to count for something.

I'm sorry man. But I think its bullshit to have people jump the line because where were those people when RED started off. PJ and SS were the first ones in the game with RED and they should be rewarded. But people that just walk up and have $58K to blow jumping in front of the rest of us that have been waiting on a camera for 2 years now is bullshit.

I believe RED comes up with their color science and stuff like that on their own because they have very smart and innovative people working for them. So to say that we need to put it in the hands of Ridley Scott or James Cameron is just wrong. I know people are trying to justify was is going on with this whole thing but that is really grasping at straws.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

These conspiracy theories are almost funny. You'd think we need to look at RED's track record and behavioral patterns before we make these kind of serious accusations which are being made public.

Does RED have a history of treating their customers with an attitude of wanting to do what's right? Or do they have a long history of screwing people time over again just for their personal gain? Hmmm...

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I'm sorry man. But I think its bullshit to have people jump the line because where were those people when RED started off. PJ and SS were the first ones in the game with RED and they should be rewarded. But people that just walk up and have $58K to blow jumping in front of the rest of us that have been waiting on a camera for 2 years now is bullshit.

Whose idea was it to "reward" people? The customer? Or RED's? When you bought a RED One, did you buy into your RED One in expectancy of getting 100% money back for the 2nd generation as well as getting free bits and pieces to go with it? Maybe the question should be "Did you expect all of that AND more?" Because that is what you demanding for right now.

I guess there's not too much more to be said...

 

[Andrew Walker]

These conspiracy theories are almost funny. You'd think we need to look at RED's track record and behavioral patterns before we make these kind of serious accusations which are being made public.

Does RED have a history of treating their customers with an attitude of wanting to do what's right? Or do they have a long history of screwing people time over again just for their personal gain? Hmmm...

Oh believe me I'll stand behind what I'm saying. There is no theory to what was posted. I use to be a huge fan of RED and would stick up for them whenever someone would talk bad about them. Now not so much. I wish I could say more but I'm only willing to put my own neck on the chopping block.

Whose idea was it to "reward" people? The customer? Or RED's? When you bought a RED One, did you buy into your RED One in expectancy of getting 100% money back for the 2nd generation as well as getting free bits and pieces to go with it? Maybe the question should be "Did you expect all of that AND more?" Because that is what you demanding for right now.

I guess there's not too much more to be said...

First off Joseph, you haven't been here for the beginning of this whole thing. Most of us early adopters have been in the RED game for 5 years or more for some. So I expect RED to follow through on promises like they have in the past when things started to get going with the RED One. But for whatever reason RED has taken it upon themselves to beat people down and say don't question us or we'll punish you. That is not the company I bought my camera from. The only thing that I'm "demanding" is that RED follow the standards they have created in the past.

All I want is RED to remember where they came from because it seems like they are quickly losing sight of that.

 

[Elsie N]

I'm sorry man. But I think its bullshit to have people jump the line because where were those people when RED started off. PJ and SS were the first ones in the game with RED and they should be rewarded. But people that just walk up and have $58K to blow jumping in front of the rest of us that have been waiting on a camera for 2 years now is bullshit.

I believe RED comes up with their color science and stuff like that on their own because they have very smart and innovative people working for them. So to say that we need to put it in the hands of Ridley Scott or James Cameron is just wrong. I know people are trying to justify was is going on with this whole thing but that is really grasping at straws.

Andrew, while the Epic M line started out as being for people who could further the development of the camera, after that criteria had been met and after the tsunami delays for the Epic X, I feel like it evolved into a premium model of the Epic line. When you think of it in those terms, there is no line-jumping. These are just cash sales for a premium model while waiting for the real business to start.

edit: Just want to make it clear I do not disrespect you or your position. But I do see the situation differently.