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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC STAGE Clarification and update

Curran Giddens said:
:nono:

No soup for you!
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Hah! Nice bit of comedic relief Curran.

But back to the serious side, I think Andrew has given voice to something that may be bothering lots of people. I also think it is good to air these issues out and look at both sides. There may be a lot of people reading this who held the same thoughts as Andrew expressed, but after reading the rebuttals, may just better understand the other side of the debate.
 
If Red choose to make camera available to people like Cameron and Jackson, even if it is at a loss, then they are entirely free to do so, and they don't need to answer to anyone. By doing so they may be using the experience to improve the camera, or even doing it tactically to develop the industry's perception of this camera.

Why on earth should someone who happened to stumble across the red one early on in red's life and risk the $18k or so somehow be more entitled to a newer model than someone who is prepared to risk an unfathomable budget on a camera running beta firmware?

I'm not surprised if there are people at Red losing their patience at seeing such a rigorous dental examination of the gift horse that was Stage 2.
 
Jarred - you rock man. thanks for all the hard work and then having to read this nonsense.

Thnks for making the greatest camera ever built... better with every passing day.

a LOT of us... MOST of us... are patient and want it as close to perfect as can be...

don't forget to have fun!
 
I have been happily waiting for my first Red purchase for about 3 years now. I have to say that this is very dangerous for me. First, I was going to get a Red One and then I heard about the Scarlet's and decided I would get one of those. I then changed my mind and decided I was going to get an Epic S when they announced the change in the line up. Now, the longer I wait the more and more that I'm thinking of getting an Epic X. Dangerous, I tell you!

Thanks again to everyone at Red for making this great tech and for all the Red employees that post here. Your insight is much appreciated.

-mike
 
Elsie N said:
I think Andrew has given voice to something that may be bothering lots of people. I also think it is good to air these issues out and look at both sides. There may be a lot of people reading this who held the same thoughts as Andrew expressed,
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I don't doubt this for a moment... Putting on my customer shoes I know I would probably feel the same way. Unfortunately there isn't much we can do about the situation. If you guys have noticed I'm not sleeping much lately.. this stuff really does keeps us up at night.

The one thing we ask from our customers, over and over and over, and over, and then painfully over again., is a bit of patience.. in return we promise to do our best to make the wait worth it.
 
We here in Dallas have doubts Epic-x will be awesome whenever we get it. Keep up all the hard work. We'll be having a blast with our Red One until then!
 
Giving a legitimate complaint and discussing it should be encouraged, but saying "I've talked to people who are mad...can't tell you who or exactly why they're mad, but I'm going to tell everyone on this forum!" is a pointless thing to say. Without specific examples/situations Red can't defend themselves and you are just spreading FUD. If you would really like to complain about whatever you've discovered, write a private message to RED.

I don't blame Jim for being less present on Reduser and I don't know how Jarred deals with it.
 
STAGE 4: Purchase EPIC S35 Brain - Available to RED ONE camera owners that were invoiced by RED or completed the official RED ownership transfer process after May 22, 2010 ( as well as all non-RED ONE owners)
Cost is $28,000 for 1x S35 MYSTERIUM-X brain with PL mount.

Hey guys, Just a quick question, (I apologise if it's already been asked in the past), is this EPIC S35 Brain referred to above, the EPIC-S or is it EPIC-X? I did search on the red site but there's no info I can find, and the models and differences are a little confusing to me still. Reason I ask; does it mean EPIC-S is officially $28000, not in vicinity of $12k? (being $28 I'm hoping it's the EPIC-X).

Scott.
 
Jarred Land said:
I don't doubt this for a moment... Putting on my customer shoes I know I would probably feel the same way. Unfortunately there isn't much we can do about the situation. If you guys have noticed I'm not sleeping much lately.. this stuff really does keeps us up at night.

The one thing we ask from our customers, over and over and over, and over, and then painfully over again., is a bit of patience.. in return we promise to do our best to make the wait worth it.
Click to expand...

I felt some of Andrew's feelings, (Not all of them.. Cameron and Jackson SHOULD have early cameras, good for all of us). And was bothered when there were knee-jerk defensive reactions from RED after frustrated comments from people (like me a couple times). This is why I am so encouaged by Jarred's post. He's embracing the frustration, taking the hit, and saying "we'll get it.. Hold on". And here's the catch.. He (and Jim) have to do this hundreds of times as more people complain. this is good. This is what they should do. It's the price they pay for their current situation. It really sucks, but they have to be above all this, they have to keep their own feelings in check, and give the customers what they need during this time. In other words, they have to be leaders.

It's really hard, and I am not sure I could do it, but Jarred is, and if he can keep it up until the Xs get out, then he will have reached a milestone in business. Sometimes it's not just a matter of keeping your head about you when things go bad, it's about keeping you head for an extended period of time.

I need RED to be better than normal right now.. I need them to be in control, and calm.. A lot like pilots flying a plane with "technical difficulties". They need to keep us relaxed in the face of an upsetting situation.

I am not wild about the M program in some ways, and I feel that same program will serve me well when I get my camera also. It's tattoo on steriods, and the camera will be quite well tested.

I am still extremely frustrated that I do not know what the X package includes. This does anger me a bit. My hope is that they are delaying this list in the hopes of attempting to include as many things as possible as part of the package and in order to do that they need to wait until they get a very good handle on the cost of things.. That's my hope.

Anyway, good on you Jarred.. Good response, and keep it up.

Jay
 
Jarred Land said:
I don't doubt this for a moment... Putting on my customer shoes I know I would probably feel the same way. Unfortunately there isn't much we can do about the situation. If you guys have noticed I'm not sleeping much lately.. this stuff really does keeps us up at night.

The one thing we ask from our customers, over and over and over, and over, and then painfully over again., is a bit of patience.. in return we promise to do our best to make the wait worth it.
Click to expand...

Don't worry Jarred. A few more months, and it will all be over. The hardest part of Red's long story will be behind you. You'll still work your arse off, but it won't be as tough as it is now. Trust me. I know these things. :)

And forget about work before going to sleep! We need you fresh and rested.
 
Wow, this thread kinda went off the deep end. I know people are frustrated. But we have to give props to Jim, Jarred and the rest of the RED crew. They put up with an awful lot of crap around here and they take the time to interact with end users on a daily basis. They don't have to do this. They didn't have to make us the Stage-2 and Stage-3 offers which are unheard of in this (or pretty much any other) industry.

As for the tolerance of other peoples' crap, I think any of these angry people with legitimate concerns should state their grievances and air it out a bit. I hear stories from time to time, as Andrew does, and many of them become exaggerated or lost in translation, some are outright BS to begin with. I'll admit, I've had my occasional frustrations with RED, although minor. You know, little things, like being told my XXXXX is ready to ship, oh wait, nope... And I seem to go through Bomb Squad reps like kleenex. Hopefully I get to keep my current bomb rep for a while this time because she's effin' awesome.

I do know a few people with Stage-2 reservations and low RED One numbers/early delivery dates who were banking on getting one of the first handful of EPIC cameras to ship... A couple of these guys are not happy that there's now 1000 M's in circulation, essentially anyone with the budget to buy an M just trampled their early advantage. OK, I kinda see that. I'd be lying if I didn't look at it that way to some extent, after all, I felt the M was worth the premium to have NOW. As with all things RED, everything is subject to change, count on it. Personally I don't think there's a reason for anyone to get their panties in a twist over EPIC-X vs. EPIC-M delivery and pricing. It just is what it is and if your business is so dependent on needing that Stage-2 now, like all those M guys getting a camera ahead of you, but you can't afford to board the M train.... Well, maybe you need to re-examine a few of your priorities rather than getting mad at RED. If they could build the EPIC-X in the quantity they need and at the price point they originally advertised, they would do it. They can't do that today, hopefully tomorrow. Live with it, or put in a request for an M.

And there's also the RED One MX to shoot with until then. Lots of them out there to use. As of this posting, the RED One still does things the EPIC doesn't do: Playback and time-lapse to name the two biggies I'm anxiously waiting for.
 
I'm just waiting around....think I'll have a beer. That's how concerned I am about all the whining.
 
I was a little upset, then when my Epic commercials came around and there was no EPIC I was major upset. However it forced me to pull some AMAZING crap out of my AF-100 and that has resulted in some new opportunitues.. So it all works out in the end.

Now.. When Epic comes, it comes.. Until then I have a camera that works well for what I am doing

I try not to jump on people who are frustrated.. Every person is different, and I don't feel comfortable knocking someone's pain, even if they made a bad judgement call. I certainly don't need to defend RED, they are big boys, and I think when I defend their position in public I come off as a fanboy and this does not really help them in the long run.

Too much of anything, compliments, or complaints, tend to dull over time.

Jay

Jay
 
I have been a supporter of RED from very early on and I am also signed up for Stage 2. I was among the first people to get a RED reservation, #232 and I took delivery of that camera as soon as it came up. That was back when there were a lot of skepticism about the cameras and the company. When my camera arrived audio had not even been enabled and the cameras was still early in the features implementation. It took RED longer than we had hoped to get the cameras to us, but they were also making a camera that was extremely ambitious. My camera has been a workhorse since I got it and it has changed my life and my company completely. I'm excited about getting my Epic, but it is not stopping me from shooting my projects. I just finished shooting two features, both of which I had hoped I would have the Epic for. Instead I shot the first on two RED ONEs, the second one the producer (Meryem Ersoz) was able to get her EPIC M for the second half of the shoot in addition to the two RED ONEs we were already using. The truth is, that I could easily have shot this feature with only RED ONEs. I will say that I loved working with the EPIC M, though. We had some great opportunities to use the HDR functionality, as well as high speed 5K shooting. The EPIC was also great on the steadicam and flying on a cable system. I am looking forward to my Stage 2 camera and all of the improvements it offers, but until then I'll wait patiently, happily shooting with my RED ONE MX #232.
 
I have to (very mildly) disagree with my DP, Jon - I bled to get HDRx for this film, and I think it will be hugely beneficial to many of our locations - we shot through a lot of windows and shot a ton of high-contrasty days...definitely more latitude to dig out of the HDRx shots than what is available with the RED ONE -

The previous feature that Jon shot, just before this one, didn't nearly challenge the camera in terms of high-contrast outdoors shot selection. But my film, the one that we just wrapped, did stretch the limits of the latitude of both cameras, and I'm looking forward to digging into the extra stops to get the look that I want for this film.

I will say that the M remains slightly undercooked at this time - mine is headed back to the shop very soon because it is having an audio hiccup. EPIC-M is without a doubt the greatest camera on the planet - you can feel its potential for greatness, but there is a feeling of the early days of RED ONE all over again, where it is still under construction, so this idea that everyone is receiving these completely battle-tested and perfected cameras is just flat-out wrong.

I consider my RED ONEs as nearly perfected as that form factor can be...EPIC is still a work in progress - it is a very feature-rich camera, and when all those features are fully enabled, it will be just about as perfect as a camera can be. Really a marvel.

But I remarked to Jon that I think a mass release of X cameras to an unwitting populace, without all of its planned features enabled or with bugs still to work out - well, that would be a mistake for RED. The amount of time they would spend troubleshooting these still-early release cameras would place a huge burden on a small company. I got my film shot out in very good form, because we had two MX RED ONEs and one EPIC. But I would not want the EPIC to be my only option at this time. The RED ONEs (Jon and my own) were immaculate - true workhorses and we have a beautiful pile of footage. Not a hiccup from either one. Both cameras have evolved through a years-long process from the earlier days of RED.

The same was not true of the EPIC - and I don't mind at alll having encountered a hiccup and having to send it back, because I trust that RED will do everything they can to make the EPIC as perfect as our RED ONEs currently are, but there will be patience involved in the process, as there has been throughout the improvements in the ONE. I imagine it would be very hard to release these M cameras to new users while they are still enabling features and squashing bugs every day.

RED has proven to me that they will put on the armor and go to battle for their cameras every day, to make them better, but that doesn't happen instantaneously or overnight. It takes a lot of hard work on their end and requires some patience on ours, and trust.
 
EPIC - M

EPIC - M

Hi,

We have two RED MX with 5xxx and 6xxx as serial numbers. Had a stage II reservation for one camera .After hearing about the delay for EPIC-X we applied for an EPIC-M reservation in mid may 2011...but havnt received any confirmation mail from RED.

I dont know about the 'selection criteria':001_smile: for the EPIC-M and niether I know about the 'time frame for delivery of EPIC-M's but I do not want to come under a situation where I will be blowing my bank account by paying for EPIC-M and within few days the EPIC-X starts delivering.

I think at least for EPIC-M the delivery schedule should be made clear to the buyer when he requests an EPIC-M.

Harcharan
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I do know a few people with Stage-2 reservations and low RED One numbers/early delivery dates who were banking on getting one of the first handful of EPIC cameras to ship... A couple of these guys are not happy that there's now 1000 M's in circulation, essentially anyone with the budget to buy an M just trampled their early advantage.
Click to expand...

I have one of the two lowest Red customer numbers on the planet, stemming from my purchase of Red One 0008. Not wanting/needing to personally put up a full $58k for an Epic M, I instead opted to bring Ketch in to partner with me on Epic M8. IMO that was the perfect move for me, and the right time to do it. As we agreed, Ketch has taken the camera to Italy to get rolling on some very cool projects there. IMO that's a very good business move and I'm very happy with everything about the Epic M8 transaction and plans.

With my Red One 0008 and Red One London cameras both out on extended usage agreements, and Epic M8 in italy, guess what - I've been without a single Red camera of any kind to shoot with for about two months now. If I need one I rent it from the tons of associates I have in the Red camera owners ranks.

I have two extremely early Stage 2 Epic X cameras coming. I obviously didn't anticipate the delays in Stage 2 Epic X deliveries - but then again neither could Red Team. They've been absolutely busting their rear ends to satisfy their customers all along since 2006 - and I'm completely convinced of that and more than satisfied with their customer service and care. Red Team is way talented, but even they don't have the means to control the natural world. The quake and tsunamis in Japan not only seriously rocked the island of Honshu, but due to their specific location huge ripples of supply disruption spread throughout supply lines of the camera industry. All Red, Sony, Panasonic, and others could do is adapt and hold on until the parts supply situation stabilizes. I completely understand that and empathize with my good friends at Red - after all, they're all like "family" to me.

So, I've essentially been camera-less for two months now, which there was basically no way for me to foresee. Have I been moping around and complaining and posting criticism of Red Team here on Red User? Heck no. IMO Red Team has gone way beyond the "extra mile" in their Epic Stage offerings, and has scrambled after the Japan disaster and done the best they possibly could to get cameras out the door. The immediate workaround has been that at great expense to Red they've been able to custom machine and assemble these Epic M cameras which have been sold and shipped. Though their profit margin on these M cameras is undoubtedly small (if any), IMO that was the best business decision under very stressful circumstances.

Believe me, nobody on this planet would more like to get Epic X and Fixed Scarlet shipping than Red Team. I've known all these Red Team guys personally for ages now, including Jim for the past 27 years, and I know it breaks their professional and personal hearts to have had to delay the shipping of those cameras to us customers. I completely empathize with Red Team on this situation - and I believe almost all of the other extremely early customer number holders would agree with my position on this.

The definite upside of all this is that Epic M owners have been and are continually sending behind the scenes camera performance feedback to Red Team, which seriously helps Red Team in perfecting the camera firmware sequence. All Epic X owners will deeply benefit from that. Also, since the Fixed Scarlet can't ship due to the few lens parts situation, I'm sure Red Team is continually field and lab testing the working prototypes they have and troubleshooting the eventual firmware for the camera - again resulting in a much better camera when it can finally ship.

I'd suggest members and visitors here reel Red Team out some more slack on this. They're all great guys with amazing talents and abilities - and I know without a doubt they have our best interests in mind continually. Could any of us do better if we were in their shoes? Heck no. Are they doing their very best under unbelievably difficult circumstances? Heck yes. Will they deliver Epic X, Fixed Scarlet, and all their future cameras as soon as it is humanly possible? Dang right.

As someone who heard about Red directly from Jim clear back in the Spring of 2005, and has consistently supported Red since then, I'd like to asked all of you to give Red Team a ton of respect and patience - especially in regards to this situation with the delayed shipping of Epic X and Fixed Scarlet.
 
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