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EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

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Mike Kushner

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Was shooting a feature for NBC Sports for London Olympics last week. The fan settings were "Manual" and record speed was set to 25% (then later in the interview after coming on automatically it was set to "Off", then back to 25%), and stand-by speed set to 75%. The room was air conditioned and was in the mid-to low 70's F. Cool, HMI and Kino Flo lighting. Was shooting for the PAL broadcast out of London at 25 Fps.

This young Olympian we interviewed has a tragic story of being sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend and her mother dying in a car accident right after the abuse.

As she told the story to the camera and tears streamed down her face...the camera fan turned on automatically at 100% (even though set to manual).

It sounded like a leaf blower was three feet from the microphone. It was, of course, very loud in the quite room Ruined the content for that sound byte...and ruined the moment as we had to stop. I ran the fan, put a bag of ice on the camera and apologized to the producer for the interruption.

After cooling the camera and re-starting the interview...the fan kept going on by itself about every 4-5 minutes. We eventually concluded the interview and the editors will try to salvage the audio and content...but i was extremely disappointed in the real world functionality of the camera as it relates to overheating. The picture was great, but if i can't get through a one hour interview in a room temperature environment without very loud fan noise, I've got an issue with that as a tool for recording sync sound in an intimate setting. (interviews)

Could just be a software bug, and maybe my camera is the only one that does that. Wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience or has any advice on how to keep the fan from starting spontaneously during an intimate interview in a quiet room that may require long clips rolling continuously.
 
My experience is that setting the camera manually to an artificially low setting creates a situation where the camera is not cooling off enough and has to over compensate later. This is what you experienced. In the future you might sacrifice a touch more of the quite for sustained fan level.
Setting the fan to low auto is usually sufficient if the camera is not way to close to the mike. This will insure that the camera does not have to bump up the fan mid take.

If anyone else has thoughts on this it might be helpful. Setting the camera at auto seems to work just fine and seems to have perfectly except able noise level.
 
the camera was about 5 feet from the subject in a dead quite room. Low auto was used originally, but was a little too loud for the sound department.
 
Copy that.

Some times good enough is better then perfect. This is one of those cases. Sound that was just good enough for the entire interview would have been better than perfect sound for just part of the interview.

That being said; not having been there and knowing that some times a room can have certain acoustic characteristics that can be very unforgiving it would be nice to know what the min sound/fan/time that we can get out of an Epic on the current build is so when we are in these situations we can manage our expectations and make reasonable setting adjustments so that they don't come around and kick us in the ass.

The tech question should be a know factor and it would be great to get a breakdown from Red.

Cheers Man.
 
I'm going to echo a sentiment that I read elsewhere:

"What if after carefully lighting a set, we started shooting and light started emitting from my recorder so strong that the continuity of the lighting was destroyed? I think I would be ejected from the studio along with my equipment fairly quickly."

The Epic is great for a lot of situations, but it is the wrong camera to use for rolling long takes when clean sound is essential. Like it or not, audio is half the equation and something to consider when choosing what camera is needed for the job.
 
This is why I always have my quiet 1080p camera as backup. Typically it's my Af100, but if space in my bag is tight, I bring my GH2 and D800.
I'd also like to add that if possible, move the camera as far away as your lens will allow from the mic/talent.
 
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Hi Mike
I totally understand your frustration.
Fan noise on my Scarlet is #1 issue for me as well.
Love the picture, understand compact design and need for cooling off the sensor but very loud fan noise is not acceptable in many situations.
In other threats users had better luck with manual settings 37-40 recording 57-70 standby.
Personally I'm always nervous shooting longer takes in quiet location.
I wish there would be some firmware upgrade to make it fan run quieter.

Scarlet #772
 
I have shot many a long take interview, say over an hour long and have not had to fool with changing settings on the camera. I disagree with the notion that the Epic is the wrong camera for the job. Good planning is necessary, knowing that the camera does have to breathe and if you cut off its supply of air, at some point it's going to gasp, which is not the camera's fault. I have more of an issue with building air conditioners, white noise generators, etc than I have had with the camera.
 
I sympathize with your situation Mike, sometimes these things catch us off guard or we get caught in a corner during a live event. During my prep work for a feature shoot that was using long takes (5+ minutes each) I ran a few tests with my Epics to familiarize myself with the fan function so I knew what the thresholds are, perhaps this thread can help with your preparations next time:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?75200-What-about-fan-speed

These little machines are processing so much data/second that naturally, like all "super" computers, they generate heat. But they also give us a picture with such resolution and range, that nothing else in the market even comes close. Once we become familiar with the Epic/Scarlet's characteristics, we can really maximize their potential, and then ours. I encourage you to run some tests and to really put the camera through some challenging scenarios before you find out in the field.
 
There is a huge difference between Epic X and first generation of Epic M in the cooling system regard.

With the Epic-X, I can record 8 to 12 minutes at fan speed 25% in normal room temperature before getting to the 42degrees and 100% fan blowing level.

Some times I change the fan level during take from 25 to 30%, wich is not allways the best for the sound department as they get a different sound noise level during take.

I also remarqued that there are different build and sound level of Epic-X at 25% setting.

The fan is my No 1 issue with this incredible camera. It's essencially a problem for the one who cares about a perfect sound.


I hope that the power management RED announced in future FW update will improve power consomption and therefore reduce the generated heat.


Pat
 
A few of things worth noting:

• The trigger point for the fan to run at 100% to save you from frying the camera is 75 degrees as shown on the LCD.
• Anything you can do to clear the flow of air will improve both cooling and noise: It may be just me, but my EPIC-M runs much quieter with the fan guard removed temporarily. Otherwise watch placement of cables and acc's around the inlet and exhaust.
• If you're into manual settings, set the cam to run the fan at 100% while in standby - gives you the biggest bite at the cheese when you roll.
• You can adjust fan settings mid-take, no problem at all. I often ride the fan setting a tiny bit manually in a long interview take. Keep my eye on the rate of rise in temp, and if its looking likely that I will hit a critical temp before the interview is over, just nudge it up 1 or 2 % and keep my eye on things.
 
Was DITing on a T3 in October and they were doing 12 minute takes. When the fans were set to 35% they would overheat in the small rooms. I set them to 40% and during the long takes there were no issues with the camera overheating. Typically for hot days or small rooms I set to 40/100, works great. If you need absolute quiet then you need to keep your takes down to 5 minutes. Also you should be cutting your camera when you're doing long interviews anyways as if you lose power for whatever reason while at minute 19 or whatever, you've just lost the entire clip and have just wasted 19 minutes of your time. So the moral of the story is shorter clips :)
 
Thanks for all the information everyone. Really appreciate the feedback.
 
what is the difference you find between the M and the X cooling systems
?



Patrick Tresch said:
There is a huge difference between Epic X and first generation of Epic M in the cooling system regard.

With the Epic-X, I can record 8 to 12 minutes at fan speed 25% in normal room temperature before getting to the 42degrees and 100% fan blowing level.

Some times I change the fan level during take from 25 to 30%, wich is not allways the best for the sound department as they get a different sound noise level during take.

I also remarqued that there are different build and sound level of Epic-X at 25% setting.

The fan is my No 1 issue with this incredible camera. It's essencially a problem for the one who cares about a perfect sound.


I hope that the power management RED announced in future FW update will improve power consomption and therefore reduce the generated heat.


Pat
Click to expand...
 
Also started a thread about it a week ago, i really hope red can somehow find a solution for this...
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
what is the difference you find between the M and the X cooling systems
?
Click to expand...

The upgrading programm shows the issues. http://www.red.com/news/epic-m-upgrade-program

But mainly the Epic-M (first generation) can't lower the fan speed to a 25% setting. It's blocked to a 35% level because of different hardware of the cooling system (fan and heatsink).

I wonder why did RED do such a design for the top plate that the heat sink has little space to get the hot air out of it. FMJ top plate lets a better air flow to the heat sink...

http://www.red.com/store/products/dsmc-top-plate
http://www.viewfactor.net/products/epic-scarlet-acc/fmj-top-plate.html



Pat
 
Wes Machnikowski said:
Hi Mike
I totally understand your frustration.
Fan noise on my Scarlet is #1 issue for me as well.
Love the picture, understand compact design and need for cooling off the sensor but very loud fan noise is not acceptable in many situations.
In other threats users had better luck with manual settings 37-40 recording 57-70 standby.
Personally I'm always nervous shooting longer takes in quiet location.
I wish there would be some firmware upgrade to make it fan run quieter.

Scarlet #772
Click to expand...

The problem is really one of over-heating. I have exactly the same issue with my Scarlet and already posted here on the issue. Noisy film cameras like the Arriflex-S use to have a sound proofing blimp. But they didn't overheat like the RED does. It is a real issue which could be a total deal breaker in so many situations. I'm thinking of getting a second camera just for those quiet interviews. I would rather put the money towards some kind of liquid cooling upgrade, so I can continue using 4K instead of 1080p.
 
Doug Beatty said:
I'm going to echo a sentiment that I read elsewhere:

"What if after carefully lighting a set, we started shooting and light started emitting from my recorder so strong that the continuity of the lighting was destroyed? I think I would be ejected from the studio along with my equipment fairly quickly."

The Epic is great for a lot of situations, but it is the wrong camera to use for rolling long takes when clean sound is essential. Like it or not, audio is half the equation and something to consider when choosing what camera is needed for the job.
Click to expand...

I agree , had a very similar situation, after the Fan kicked in during a particularly poignant part of an interview.
This was manual setting , fan set to 33% while recording and standby 60-70%, but every situation is different , ambient room temperature , acoustics on set etc.
Have done many tests, and setting to auto @ 33% and standby as high as possible, seems to give longer recording times without the fan kicking in at 100%, than using manual @ 33%.
But the constant thought of the fan is going to kick in during interview, has made me reconsider the " right tools for the right job" thought ...Shame really
 
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