EPIC and Alexa...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yes - got to ignore film too, especially 65mm and IMAX as they have too much resolution. I think we're seeing the start of the "back to SD" movement.

No such thing as too much resolution. It's all about how you use it and what you use it for. Actors sometimes don't like it, especially the ladies. It's no fun when they freak out seeing their face at 1:1 pixel magnification on a 30" DIT monitor or 50" 1080p plasma while tweaking looks or whatnot.

I have the utmost professional respect for Rodney Charters and he's entitled to his opinion. I have to respectfully disagree with his tweets there. For many of us, this is a science experiment. And for every actor who shudders at the thought of HD resolutions and beyond, there are those shooting stock, corporate, wildlife, etc.. and FX guys.. Many who can't get enough.

Bring on 28K!

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Hold on, did Rodney Charters say Alexa is way "up on DR" vs. MX based on the DSC chart Jim posted? I can barely see half a stop difference! How is that "Way up"? Maybe I am missing something?

 

[James Brundige]

"Advantage" depends on priorities.

I prefer the high resolution noise on the Red low end. Arri rolls off the highlights better.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I would like to see something like the SALT lens tests for these two cameras. I'd even chip in to cover any costs.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hold on, did Rodney Charters say Alexa is way "up on DR" vs. MX based on the DSC chart Jim posted? I can barely see half a stop difference! How is that "Way up"? Maybe I am missing something?

You can see a bit more separation between the two highest EV's on the chart (bottom / brightest ones). Reading top to bottom, each EV block represents double the amount of light from the one above it. RED shows a bit more definition on the low end, but the Alexa seems to register more on the high end, which signals greater overall DR.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Rodney is quite off-base here, IMO. The charts show only around half a stop of difference in latituda. And the shadow noise is way more pleasant in the MX.

And it's true that the RED's high resolution is very pleasant and doesn't show the oversharpened pores of the actors.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...I think we're seeing the start of the "back to SD" movement.

Graeme

Fabulous. And just in time. I was about to sell off my old Canon GL1! :wink5:

 

[Graeme Nattress]

IMHO, there is a marked aesthetic difference between film resolution at the capture stage and electronic resolution, be it sd, hd, 2k , 4k, 5k etc at the capture stage.

Some of the chemical processes in film development can produce a sorta sharpening effect. Also, grain can influence the appearance of sharpness. If you take an image and add grain, it appears sharper even though you've not sharpened it. That can be nice in the right circumstances as grain can be much less objectionable than sharpening halos.

Graeme

 

[Andrew Thomas]

Does Arri pay Rodney to say these things??

Can we just stop with the attacks on respected artists? Rodney is a genuine guy and it is ridiculous to attack his credibility because it doesn't match up with your view of the situation. At least Rodney has actually used both the Alexa and MX (though not Epic) side by side and come to his conclusion.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Can we just stop with the attacks on respected artists? Rodney is a genuine guy and it is ridiculous to attack his credibility because it doesn't match up with your view of the situation. At least Rodney has actually used both the Alexa and MX (though not Epic) side by side and come to his conclusion.

My question is not an attack.
Why is payment for promotion a bad thing?

 

[rod bradley]

And in all of this let's not forget how the Red team kept tweaking the Mysterium sensor getting more and more out of it. So even though the M-X as it stands is brilliant, sometimes the Red team surprises even themselves. Red never seems to sleep when it comes to tweaking and handing us their labors as gifts.

 

[David Kudell]

What really makes the Arri a no-go, to me, is that 2K chart. I would expect and demand that, at 2K, you should see no difference between the two cameras. Isn't that their whole argument - "good enough?" When it's clear that at 2K you're soft, then it isn't good enough even for plain old HD...

The dynamic range looks look a wash to me...it's not hard to make a camera with similar DR to the Epic when you make your pixels that much larger.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Can we just stop with the attacks on respected artists? Rodney is a genuine guy and it is ridiculous to attack his credibility because it doesn't match up with your view of the situation. At least Rodney has actually used both the Alexa and MX (though not Epic) side by side and come to his conclusion.

I'm not sure I'd qualify him as "genuine" if he's maintaining a 3-stop DR advantage after testing both cameras.

If he honeslty believes that, then inept may be the correct word choice.

Really, does anybody believe THREE STOPS OF DIFFERENCE? If not, then how do you account for what he's said? It seems it's either one or the other, no?

-sc

 

[Stephen Aldridge]

While I have to agree with anyone who lives by the "right tool for the job" mantra, I have to say that the deal breaker for me between these two cameras is the frame-rates... and the modular system.... the recording options... the resolution... Oh, and the customer service... and I think the Epic looks cooler.

That said, I'd be thrilled to get to shoot an Alexa. But I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna squeal with girlish delight when I push the little Red button on an Epic for the first time.

Thank you Jim, for pushing the boundaries and not settling for "good enough"

Stephen

 

[Steven Caesare]

Graeme-

Down-rezzing reduces resolution, but also noise. Hence, scaling down a higher-res picture in essence allows the bottom end to become more usable, wouldn't it?

If that's the case, would this equate to greater effective DR, as you can then protect for highlights more, and have a greater number of total stops before you hit objectionable noise in the shadows?

If this is correct, what would you estimate the total DR increase would be by scaling 4K acquired MX footage down to Alexa's HD resolution?

Thanks.

-sc

 

[Michael Panfeld]

can't wait for the Monstro's extended DR coupled with higher resolution!

 

[Joel Kaye]

Humm, I've always thought (after doing a crap load of shooting with the RED) that it was pretty kind of actors faces compared to other HD cameras. It was sharp, but not in a bad (AKA: fake, over sharpening) way.

Yeah, overall the creaminess of the RED sensor I've always found to be pretty kind to skin. That's not to say I haven't seen some closeups on some actors that were too revealing.

I'd really rather see these two cameras in the jungle than on a chart. Shooting charts vs. real world can often reveal far different limitations and strengths. Also, you really need to bracket the exposures and bring them into post to see what can be done.

I'm pretty mind boggled by the dynamic range I've seen in some consumer cameras.

 

[Tim Morten]

I'm not sure I'd qualify him as "genuine" if he's maintaining a 3-stop DR advantage after testing both cameras.

If he honeslty believes that, then inept may be the correct word choice.

Really, does anybody believe THREE STOPS OF DIFFERENCE? If not, then how do you account for what he's said? It seems it's either one or the other, no?

-sc

You just need to use a different methodology to see the difference (ie - setup a questionable monitoring path and film it on an iPhone).

Seriously though, maybe it's just a monitoring difference (as speculated) and therefore a sincere perception on his part?

For the conspiracy theorists, it's true that one might suspect some kind of special relationship when he's got the first Alexa prototype in North America: http://poetzerofilm.com/2010/04/arri-alexa-prototype-photos/

Tim

 

[Steven Caesare]

Seriously though, maybe it's just a monitoring difference (as speculated) and therefore a sincere perception on his part?


Tim

Then I'd suggest a mistake of that caliber, especially for such an esteemed professional, is ineptitude.

-sc

 

[Mark Mannschreck]

Hey Jim -

Would the results be similar/identical on an MX'd R1?

Thanks,

Mark