EPIC and Alexa...

[Matthew Rogers]

Has anyone noticed that in RED's test, the color reproduction in the gray is much nicer. On my monitor the Alexa shows more of a "brown" gray than true gray. Even as you get into the black, the MX sensor seems to show truer colors.

Of course, that's just what I am seeing on my own monitor from across the internet without knowing much about how the tests were done.

 

[Steven Caesare]

People on this board need to slow down on the flame wars. This was a video of the test, NOT the test. It was the fact that he could see more highlights on the on set monitor that had him excited. As Rodney states:

Look I have to let peeps see something on the monitor all the time these days and if we are trying to see out a window I want to know that its there as well and not have to continuously answer the question will I see that? We always knew it was there on film but could never see it on the tap now in a digital realm I want to see what I am getting not wonder and wait for the DIM to show me a clip which no one else sees


...

SNIP

.....
John DeBoer
SIM Video

Unfortunatlely RC's own words don't support that. Later in the comments on that Vimeo link he states:

look the camera has at least a 3 stop greater dynamic range its easy to see it and I think it makes a difference to the way I light and use a camera you have to decide if thats important to you get hold of one test it for yourself cheers

it will not resolve nearly the same range of light ratios as the Alexa not by a mile, on the finished image, go check it out

He's explicitly stating that there's a 3-stop difference in the camera itself. What's more, he mentions the finished image, not the monitoring path.

One has to ask: If the 13.5 stop-rated MX cams have a demonstrated 13+ stop range already, and ARRI themselves have only rated Alexa at 13.5 stops, does anybody really believe there's a 3 stop difference?

Does Rodney not know this himself? Or has he been unable to expermietally discern this? The first rule of testing to to take a "does it make sense" pass at your initial results to detrermine if you've made some gross error with your methodology. It would seem that deciding two identically rated cameras have an eight-times difference in their light sensitvity should raise a question or two, no?

If he DOES know, then the 3-stop comment is disingenious. If he DOESN'T know, then he's not professionally capable of operating the equipment in a manner that dozens of other MX operators have been able to.

No disrespect intended, but I'd be open to any other explnation for his comments.

-sc

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Would be nice to show blow-up footage from Alexa in 4K and compare it with Epic scaled in 4K at the IBC Big Screen in Amsterdam 2010.

High professional side by side shots from both cameras with precise description what is technically going on there.

Than we can see if resolution matter or Alexa has "really" even 1/3 stop more DR than Epic.

All that is up to RED DC I would say now.

Also the same test could be nice to screen once in a week at RED Studios Hollywood LA for high end professionals in the industry.

 

[Bill Anderson]

More more more resolution.

More resolution will manifest itself in ways few of us are taking into account. It's not just about counting hairs on a head. Resolution impacts other very desirable visual qualities: one of the most important being the illusion of depth. Foregrounds beautifully receding into the distance in such a way as to deny the existence of a screen. New interpretations of near far relationships. (DR being equal) tonalities blending seamlessly in the most ethereal of subject matter. Hard edged light now cutting like a razor, instead of a saw. We have much to look forward to.

 

[Eric Trageser]

Since ARRI has RED ONE MX camera (or at the very least access to one), I would have expected them to post this themselves. I would simply sack the head of ARRI PR and try to repair their image (pardon the pun) before it is too late...

Peter

Saw Michael Bravin present Alexa at STE dinner last night. I heard him present the camera and the philosophy behind it on their own merits. We'll all do well to keep the conversation on the merits of the systems, and on how each camera manufacturer delivers on what they promise.

Measured by this yardstick, I'm really looking forward to the next five years. We will have some tremendous imaging systems to use.

That said, as someone who shoots a good amount of visual effects work, I'm really looking forward the quality of greenscreen keys we'll be able to pull off 4K+ effective resolution (and at @ 120fps, too), and the benefits we'll see in motion tracking with more sharply resolved images.

 

[Michael Mayda]

Thank you for posting the tests, Jim. A couple of test images are worth far more than 4K words... And congratulations on the results. I am waiting patiently for you to make my Epic truly epic.

 

[Mike Gross]

The DR part of this test is tiny compared to the resolution difference.
To me it's like shooting 16mm vs 35mm except in this case the 16mm
has a bit more DR.

 

[Lee Saxon]

You can respect someone and think they're wrong about something.

 

[Partam]

Alexa 800ASA

Alexa 800ASA

On the vimeo video Rodney said fstop 5.6 on each camera.
Alexa being one stop faster than Red MX, that's why he saw more into the shadows...so i think It really has 3 stops difference "in the monitoring path" until further tests.

 

[Chris Parker]

It now looks like there are two cameras that make great film alternative options.

Well said. Amen.

Liking Alexa imagery does not mean you dislike RED, and vice versa.

It is a testament to RED that THEY are now the ones (after 3 short years of having a camera in the market) that are the measuring stick to new cameras from decades-long heavyweights in the industry. An absolute testament to all their hard work and great minds.

Now....they are also an industry heavyweight and will themselves be pushed harder by other cameras hitting the market. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Jim and the gang seem like the type to shy away from this type of stuff.

Therefore, we all win.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Well one thing I can say for sure, there is nothing I hate more than aliasing and moire. Absolutely hate both of them with a passion. If I were in a position to buy either an Epic or an Alexa, I would have to go Epic. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy an Alexa, it's still a great camera, but for my personal tastes, I gotta go higher resolution so I can down sample and push those artifacts into non-existence.

And all I can say is anything above 11 stops of dynamic is better than anything I have used so I cannot even really comment on what working with 13+ would be like, must be VERY nice for outdoor shooting. Both of these cameras are great technical achievements and I am sure, once they are both in the wild, people will want specific aspects of both of them. Awesome times I must say.

 

[Enrique Blein]

So Alexa's charts and DR would come very close, or slightly under the Scarlet 3K M-X sensor?

I am really looking foward seeing some Scarlet tests, I have no clue whether we will be looking at a cinematic feel kind of camera or rather, something closer to great HD videoish footage.

Obviously, the DP will make the difference, but you know what I mean.

 

[Joel Kaye]

No disrespect intended, but I'd be open to any other explnation for his comments.

You would think he would have bracketed his exposures and brought them into post before claiming such a thing as a 3 stop difference. I'm not a fan of these chart tests. We know RED claimed 11+ stops for RED ONE based on charts and now many people call it a 9ish stop camera. What if in the real world people will feel like MX is really 11?

I don't know, but I do know grayscales can be misleading. I think the Zacuto backlit scene test is much better. The only thing I'd add is exposure bracketing and raw files available for download so people could tweak and make up their own minds.

Maybe Arri is doing some type of pseudo HDR trick to get all the data down into the viewable range. Is any monitor actually 13+ stops?

Jury still out IMHO. (I'm EPIC Stage 2 regardless - I do think the guys at RED are tough competitors and know DR is a really big deal)

 

[David M]

Oh please...

Oh please...

Actors sometimes don't like it, especially the ladies. It's no fun when they freak out seeing their face at 1:1 pixel magnification on a 30" DIT monitor or 50" 1080p plasma while tweaking looks or whatnot.

Oh please, let's not drag THAT old chestnut out of the fire.

That crap started about ten years ago when people were getting hyperventilated about the idea of replacing 35mm film with 1440 x 1080 HDCAM.

To look even vaguely passable on a movie screen, they had to sharpen the bejeezus out of HDCAM, which unfortunately has the effect of sharpening up things that weren't meant to be sharpened, adding 10-20 years to an actor's face!

The answer that people then came up with was that all actors over 30 would need to find employment elsewhere. Yeah right.:emote_rainshower:

There is no such thing as "too much" native resolution. You can always throw resolution away afterwards, but you can't put back what wasn't there in the first place!

It's like saying you have too much money. You can always give some of it away, or blow it in Vegas or whatever, but if you don't have any you can't really manufacture it. (Well not legally anyway:crying

Image sharpening is the cinematic equivalent of maxxing out your credit cards.:nonod:

Credit cards can be a useful way of managing your financial resources, but they are not financial resources in them selves, just as a bit of detail correction can do wonders to spruce up an image, but it's not really detail.

 

[conrad gaunt]

You are actually seeing the streaks on the chart. That is what resolutions is all about.

Jim

Jim, I'm a big fan of yours, great results

The mx sensor seems to have a nicer noise floor than the Alexa over some ranges, but vice versa others..

.. but they look suspiciously like red one streaks to me, when the sensor is under exposed, in many ways. there may have been streaks on the chart, but my brain can't accept that without a better quality image to inspect easier.

Did the Alexa shoot the same chart?

..regardless, less streaks = better (unless were talking naked females at sports events, then the reverse can be true)

 

[Deanan]

Jim, I'm a big fan of yours, great results

The mx sensor seems to have a nicer noise floor than the Alexa over some ranges, but vice versa others..

.. but they look suspiciously like red one streaks to me, when the sensor is under exposed, in many ways. there may have been streaks on the chart, but my brain can't accept that without a better quality image to inspect easier.

Did the Alexa shoot the same chart?

..regardless, less streaks = better (unless were talking naked females at sports events, then the reverse can be true)

The streaks are in the chart from the printing.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

There is a lot of vertical streaking in the RED image. Is that real or an anomaly of some sort?

Stephen

 

[Graeme Nattress]

It's actually what that particular chart looks like close up - it's a bit streaky. We thought we had an issue until we examined the chart carefully and saw the lines in the chart!

Graeme

 

[Michael Moreno]

It's actually what that particular chart looks like close up - it's a bit streaky. We thought we had an issue until we examined the chart carefully and saw the lines in the chart!

Graeme

That is just awesome.
With resolution you can get in close on various subjects, not just people,
and really pick up all of the detail of what your shooting.
If it looks better to pull back in post from human subjects then it can be done
Oh and by the way I would only be concerned if the Alexa vs. Red
meant there was a cheaper and more modular solution
which there isnt
So Im pretty sure the majority of us are still and always will be Pro Red
Alexa looks good and Respect is given
but...
Pro Red! :Angel_anim:
Epic and Scarlet are modular Beauties....

Modular Beauties..... :drool5: :crazy:

 

[conrad gaunt]

The streaks are in the chart from the printing.

yeah, Jim already said that .. please could you post a link to some HQ 1:1 versions/crops, because I'm preferring the overall DR of the Alexa based on these charts, significantly. If I shouldn't be, please reducate me..

Epic wins on resolution, but that is secondary to me. I do believe resolution is important, especially with a cfa, but don't believe even full on iMax screens can display more than HD res. frankly, in a meaningful way. Based on current television technology.. I can't even go there..

..its for flexibility, such as panning in post, and general oversampling in my mind, and to satisfy niquist. I realise the charts are all 2k, but those "streaks" are doing you a dis-service if thats the whole picture, or the fact they're underexposed is

It's actually what that particular chart looks like close up - it's a bit streaky. We thought we had an issue until we examined the chart carefully and saw the lines in the chart!

Graeme

I have no doubt, but the low resolution is not helping gain anything meaningful from these charts, and the streaks are confusing it further, making it all a slightly pointless exercise