Enter the Dragon

[Peer Landa]

But increasing the resolution to 6k is overSIZED for me.
Most people can`t even perceive HDTV because their TV is not close enough.

This reasoning reminds me a bit of the early 90s when quite a few were perplexed to why we started developing tools for 24bit/96kHz audio. Their argument back then was that the 24/96 was just a fad "since no one could possibly hear the difference between it and the established 16/48 standard". I.e., not realizing how useful such dense & linear material would be in post processing. The same goes for video shot in 6K -- in post you'll have more leverage to crop, push-in and tweak it beyond any regular HD footage -- no matter if its final destination is only 1080p.


-- peer

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

I hope that the early adopters of Epic M like myself are rewarded early in the Dragon upgrades since we both paid the extra money and also supported the Epic scheme first.
I would be happy to pay $10k for the upgrade

Yes...

I really hope the early Red one M adopters got rewarded first. But I know it won't happen. Those are the ones that took the leap of faith when Red wasn't what's now, and help create the Epic-M,X and Scarlet to my believe. By the time the the Epic M got to market, there were already Hollywood movies shot with red ones. The way I thought it worked this process is that due to the tragedy with the tsunami and the shortage of parts, Red combined the Tatoo program with the Epic-M program. And it was clearly stated to the prospective customers that if they couldn't wait to get their EPICs they could pay a premium in both cash and bugs. This allowed that a lot of people with cash and that they never had owned a Red one jumped in, because they could already and clearly see that the EPIC was, well an EPIC camera.

I don't want to sound like I'm pissed at all. Quite the contrary, I'm very excited about the Dragon upgrade, and with the Epic-x stage program the early Red one M adopters got a great deal, at the cost of waiting quite a while, nothing is perfect. But early adopters already knew that since most of us waited for our Red one more than 6 months anyway.

I was just under the impression, and I think Red stated this but I might be completely wrong, that the Epic-X stage programs was quite a burden on them and from now on it was going to be a first come first serve. Am I dreaming this?

I'm really happy with my Epic the way it is right now, so if the Dragon sensor makes sense and is properly priced I'll jump in when ever they let me. But if the Epic-X have to wait for Epic-Ms and then Scarlet upgrades... then..... :gun:

Anyway, congrats on Red for the great news. Keep them coming! Happy 2013

 

[Mark Pugh]

I was just under the impression, and I think Red stated this but I might be completely wrong, that the Epic-X stage programs was quite a burden on them and from now on it was going to be a first come first serve. Am I dreaming this?

The Dragon is a sensor upgrade for Epics, not a new camera model sale or trade-in program.

Also, for what it's worth, why assume early epic-M owners are totally separate species to early R-1 adopters? That's probably close to the opposite of the truth.

 

[Mark Andersen]

Cinematography REDefined.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

...for what it's worth, why assume early epic-M owners are totally separate species to early R-1 adopters? That's probably close to the opposite of the truth.

Exactly Mark,

and thankfully RED has a record of making sure they do take care and Reward the Early Supporters/Adopters, and this is exactly will they will do again here with Dragon, were EPIC-M owners will go first for the upgrade in order, and I sure am one of the very happy costumers that believed form the beginning i to RED and RED has continued to reward my Customer Loyalty and taste for adventure...


This is also what amongst many other things, sets RED apart form the rest!!

 

[Radim Schreiber]

The fan noise has been an issue for us. If there the Dragon upgrade included significantly quieter fan, I would be eager to upgrade our Epic ASAP.

Any chance you're able to make the fans more silent with this upgrade ? That's one of the main points that might need your attention and that could be improved. The fan noise seems to be an annoyance for a lot of people I talked to (during standby and while shooting longer takes).

 

[peter roehsler]

If there ever was such a thing as a free lunch, it will have been RED´s trade-in program for early adopters. Let us not forget that RED did not begin like a kickstarter operation - nobody needed our money to build this camera. Thousand dollars downpayment did not create anything near the capital which was needed to build this camera, it was just a way to receive some commitment, to test the waters. We all `banked´ on a promise, which RED has kept and continues to over-fulfill. Many of us would not be anywhere near to where we are now, had it not been for RED. We would either continue to rent cameras or own one of the disposables with a 2-3 year life span the industry has been feeding us with over the years - at 20-40k a pop. Now that RED has grown up and been embraced by the mainstream movie industry, I consider myself fortunate to own and operate this tool second to none in the field. I am looking forward to the Dragon upgrade, but I am in no particular hurry. The projects I do benefit so much from my being able to use an Epic and my directors and clients see it the same way. RED has taken low-budget indie features to the highest possible technical level, for which I want to express my gratitude here.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

The Epic is a super-computer and it needs to keep cool. Can't expect something that small to not create heat and perform as it does. We've shot a lot of stuff and it hasn't been an issue of much concern. Certainly quiet enough when rolling. Yes sometimes it will kick in on especially long takes (I'm talking doc style here) but rare. Sound has been absolutely fine.

People ought to have the settings such that fan noise cuts out on record with pre-roll. Yes it's a bit loud when in stand by...if Jarred and co could make it quieter I'm sure they would -they had a lot of learning on the R1.

 

[Josh Snyder]

The fan noise has been an issue for us. If there the Dragon upgrade included significantly quieter fan, I would be eager to upgrade our Epic ASAP.

More powerful sensor and more powerful components in same casing doesn't sound like quiter fan, but I might be wrong and the new parts could actually run cooler than the current parts. Could someone from RED comment on this?

They should just make the casing to be one big heatsink and add inputs for small RED water cooling module that goes on the back of the camera with rest of the modules. Now that would be EPIC.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Waiting for the Scarlet owners to come in here crying.

Scarlet users should be doing backflips It has been one of the biggest requests from Scarlet owners to be able to trade up to an Epic.. and that was before we knew just how significant Dragon has become

This is one Scarlet owner doing backflips. Definitely the right move. Scarlet was getting a poor performance/price ratio, especially after the Epic price drop.

 

[Zach Swena]

internal scaling won't happen

internal scaling won't happen

I`d be fine with EPIC-internal downscaling

Keep in mind internal downscaling and raw files can't happen at the same time. What you would be talking about is a proxy module that could debayer and downscale to a lower resolution. If you want to keep the raw flexibilty, you would need to invest in the equipment to store and process the full res footage until you are done grading. Either that, or window the sensor. That said, it would be awesome if the RED engineers could figure out a way to create downscaled raw. I don't see a way to downscale though without baking in a given color science though.

 

[Paul Harb]

Well considering the selling point for me from my sales rep to spend an extra $10,000 ( $5000 x 2 Epic-M's) was to get the dragon upgrade sooner.... that would be a total disaster for a business to not keep their word on something like that.

I really hope the early Red one M adopters got rewarded first. But I know it won't happen. Those are the ones that took the leap of faith when Red wasn't what's now, and help create the Epic-M,X and Scarlet to my believe. By the time the the Epic M got to market, there were already Hollywood movies shot with red ones. The way I thought it worked this process is that due to the tragedy with the tsunami and the shortage of parts, Red combined the Tatoo program with the Epic-M program. And it was clearly stated to the prospective customers that if they couldn't wait to get their EPICs they could pay a premium in both cash and bugs. This allowed that a lot of people with cash and that they never had owned a Red one jumped in, because they could already and clearly see that the EPIC was, well an EPIC camera.

I don't want to sound like I'm pissed at all. Quite the contrary, I'm very excited about the Dragon upgrade, and with the Epic-x stage program the early Red one M adopters got a great deal, at the cost of waiting quite a while, nothing is perfect. But early adopters already knew that since most of us waited for our Red one more than 6 months anyway.

I was just under the impression, and I think Red stated this but I might be completely wrong, that the Epic-X stage programs was quite a burden on them and from now on it was going to be a first come first serve. Am I dreaming this?

I'm really happy with my Epic the way it is right now, so if the Dragon sensor makes sense and is properly priced I'll jump in when ever they let me. But if the Epic-X have to wait for Epic-Ms and then Scarlet upgrades... then..... :gun:

Anyway, congrats on Red for the great news. Keep them coming! Happy 2013

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

I wasn't aware of that kind of deal for the M owners. I guess I was under a different impression of what the M-program was.

Disregard my earlier post.

Happy shoot and keep the news from dragon coming!

Well considering the selling point for me from my sales rep to spend an extra $10,000 ( $5000 x 2 Epic-M's) was to get the dragon upgrade sooner.... that would be a total disaster for a business to not keep their word on something like that.

 

[Eisen Feuer]

I like how the main concern behind the early adopters/Epic-M owners is that they might not get it quite fast enough.

Bravo, RED. I already asked Graeme to smuggle some high-fives into the labs. This is moon landing material for me, I called some of my industry friends just to talk about it.

With half the noise of the M-X I can't wait to see some practical night vision footage with this bad boy.


Jim, you are doing some remarkable business. I could even call it humanitarian. Not only are you employing some great people, giving them a place to innovate on the bleeding edge, but you are remaking again and again one of the most powerful, influential and personal instruments ever made. On the first RED DAY in LA I was ecstatic to shake your hand and thank you for putting this tech within reach of the little indy guy like me, before the Scarlet even existed. With the price drop and more, you've been coming through damn well on your promises. Keep shakin' it up.

 

[SUNILPREM]

20 stop DR.?...................unbelievable.........you guys are rocking............all wishes


Sunil Prem

 

[AndreasOberg]

The fan noise has been an issue for us. If there the Dragon upgrade included significantly quieter fan, I would be eager to upgrade our Epic ASAP.

Yes, a more quiet fan would be nicer.
I have an education in thermodynamics and looked a bit at the cooling solution of the Red Epic (what I could see from outside).

A few possible improvements I could see are:
- The fan must be bigger. Now it's such a small fan, small fans always creates a much louder and unpleasant noise since they must spin so fast. Some solutions I can imagine
-- Put the fan on top of the brain and make it bigger (80mm or so), so it can suck out air. I think this could be an optional assessory that people could buy.
-- Try to get a bit bigger one into the front of the camera, not sure it would fit.
-- use cooling pipes that can lead out the heat.
-- Consider using copper instead of aluminium. It has twice the heat transfer capacity to aluminium. Unfortunately it's more heavy but I think it would be worth maybe 300-500g more to have it more quiet.
-- rearrange the internals a bit so the fan could be in the middle either shooting up or directly into the fins.

Just some thoughts. Looking greatly forward to the Dragon. It's hard to grasp how exponentially awesome it is!
/Andreas


/Andreas

 

[Simon Knight]

Which is more thermodynamically efficient? A fan 'blowing' cool air into the camera or a turbine 'sucking' the hot air out? I like the idea of a min-radiator sending cool liquid around the camera. (!)

SK

 

[Sergio Perez]

Which is more thermodynamically efficient? A fan 'blowing' cool air into the camera or a turbine 'sucking' the hot air out? I like the idea of a min-radiator sending cool liquid around the camera. (!)

SK

My 2004 Powermac g5 Liquid Cooled does not agree. There was a factory defect and liquid leaked, frying my motherboard.

 

[Simon Knight]

Ahh, so it's a great "idea" but not something that should be put into practice!

ouch....

SK

 

[AndreasOberg]

Which is more thermodynamically efficient? A fan 'blowing' cool air into the camera or a turbine 'sucking' the hot air out? I like the idea of a min-radiator sending cool liquid around the camera. (!)

SK

It's more efficient to "blow" directly at the fins. However if you can have a much stronger fan sucking which is a bit further away this may still be a better option. You can do alot by constructing big fins and pipes, makes a world of difference. Big fins and a big fan running fairly slow (silent) is normally the best way to cool without going into liquids.

/Andreas