Enter the Dragon

[paulherrin]

let's wait and see on that one... i'd advise against any drastic decisions without a word on that. i'm sure we'll hear with plenty of time to makes plans.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

would just be nice to know what will happen to them as I will be trading in my scarlet nice to know if they will be worthless and thus I should sell or at the very least avoid buying any more. I'm all for new options but also keeping old one's available, to be honest I can't imagine why it wouldn't be supported. Hey if they are still in development, and it's not to hard, why not support your currently available media. I would hope 4k 24fps would still work perhaps a bit less record time but 10 minutes of footage from the new dragon sensor even cropped would be wonderful to have especially for personal projects and such.

Considering the time between R1 trade in and R1 BT sale I'm not looking forward to holding on to it until the BT scarlet roll out if they ever do in the same manner. I would rather keep something I paid for and know it has a future than begin shopping around for someone to buy it from me... not my cup of tea, to be fair what I do with my gear regardless of price is up to me all that matters is the final product.

have a good one! and remember just because it's not for you is no reason it can't be perfectly fine for others, vast world out there with many different needs and tastes.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

When you put all of this propaganda and promotion aside, Red seems to have considered all of the industry's comments both positive and negative about this current generation epic when designing the hardware and firmware for the new sensor:

-Improved Colour Filter (this may hopefully indicate improved skintones and mixed lighting performance)
-Image quality
-Low AND High ISO performance
-High DR
-Pleasing roll-off
-No IR issues
-High Frame Rates
-Incredible resolution
-Larger sensor
-Extremely low noise

Many people on the cinematography mailing list (CML) have indicated that redusers have been in mindless praise over this new sensor. I find those remarks highly disingenuous and hypocritical. These specs are something to be envious over, no matter your prejudice or allegiance. It sounds like a great camera, and I am really looking forward to my turn to upgrade.

When the F55 was announced, there were endless posts there saying, "Has Red met their match?", or "The end of Red" and other such absurd statements. I am assuming that shortly, we will begin to see some posts about how Dragon has too much dynamic range, too much resolution, and is too pleasing in highlight roll off.

I am greatly looking forward to Geoff Boyle, and other cameramen testing of the Dragon these coming few months. He has always been an honest critic and a straight shooter, which I admire.

Cheers from Tokyo,
Ivan

 

[Casey Green]

If we can't do revolutionary... we don't deserve to stay in business.

Jim

Jim, please add this quote to your signature.

;-) Oh, and Happy New Year!

 

[Robert Hart]

It will be a total waste of time sending out beta cameras to the true believers. On the other hand, you could try and convert a crazed agnostic luddite like me. In case anyone misinterprets the strine wordstuff and mentality, please do not be offended. I am just kidding and happy to sit on the sidelines.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

It will be a total waste of time sending out beta cameras to the true believers. On the other hand, you could try and convert a crazed agnostic luddite like me. In case anyone misinterprets the strine wordstuff and mentality, please do not be offended. I am just kidding and happy to sit on the sidelines.

Well, the smart move would be to have the camera be tested by 50% "believers" and 50% "Agnostic"... That way, you get the marketing going from all angles...

 

[paulherrin]

somehow i think that will be a closed beta program... chiaroscuro. reveal and obscure (until it's ready to reveal).

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Jarred - just an innocent question...

By the look of it the Dragon Epics are still some time out. I would like to trade-in to non-Dragon Epic now and then pay later for the Dragon upgrade just as any other Epic owner. Any chance of such a option?

Peter

Peter,

Clearly I am not speaking on behalf of Red, but it would seem to be much easier, fairer and less resource-wasteful for all Scarlet users if it was a simply a matter of "when the order is ready", then you pay the difference and get a Dragon in one swift step rather than sending the Scarlet in now, getting an epic in exchange, then in 6 months sending an epic in then getting it upgraded. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but how Jarred worded it makes it rather clear that this is a trade in deal for Dragon, not an Epic X...

FWIW

Ivan

 

[Steve Sherrick]

When you put all of this propaganda and promotion aside, Red seems to have considered all of the industry's comments both positive and negative about this current generation epic when designing the hardware and firmware for the new sensor:

-Improved Colour Filter (this may hopefully indicate improved skintones and mixed lighting performance)
-Image quality
-Low AND High ISO performance
-High DR
-Pleasing roll-off
-No IR issues
-High Frame Rates
-Incredible resolution
-Larger sensor
-Extremely low noise

Many people on the cinematography mailing list (CML) have indicated that redusers have been in mindless praise over this new sensor. I find those remarks highly disingenuous and hypocritical. These specs are something to be envious over, no matter your prejudice or allegiance. It sounds like a great camera, and I am really looking forward to my turn to upgrade.

When the F55 was announced, there were endless posts there saying, "Has Red met their match?", or "The end of Red" and other such absurd statements. I am assuming that shortly, we will begin to see some posts about how Dragon has too much dynamic range, too much resolution, and is too pleasing in highlight roll off.

I am greatly looking forward to Geoff Boyle, and other cameramen testing of the Dragon these coming few months. He has always been an honest critic and a straight shooter, which I admire.

Cheers from Tokyo,
Ivan

Keep in mind that the folks on CML are a wide range of experience, talent, and personality just like here on Reduser. There are people who speak intelligently and thoughtfully and there are others who speak first and think second as some of us do here as well. Dragon is in it's early stages. If someone's point is that it's too early to tell if Dragon will live up to the hype, it's hard to argue that point as no one outside of RED has their hands on one yet - that we know of anyway. Do Redusers jump for joy a bit soon? Perhaps. But that also comes from trusting Jim and Jarred based on track record. Some people outside this community may not be so fast to trust the specs without hands on experience. Either way, eventually the facts will be out there and people can do their tests and find out for themselves if it lives up to expectations. In the meantime, there may be some mudslinging, but it doesn't really matter. Jim and the rest of the people at RED know what they have in their possession. No one else does.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Keep in mind that the folks on CML are a wide range of experience, talent, and personality just like here on Reduser. There are people who speak intelligently and thoughtfully and there are others who speak first and think second as some of us do here as well. Dragon is in it's early stages. If someone's point is that it's too early to tell if Dragon will live up to the hype, it's hard to argue that point as no one outside of RED has their hands on one yet - that we know of anyway. Do Redusers jump for joy a bit soon? Perhaps. But that also comes from trusting Jim and Jarred based on track record. Some people outside this community may not be so fast to trust the specs without hands on experience. Either way, eventually the facts will be out there and people can do their tests and find out for themselves if it lives up to expectations. In the meantime, there may be some mudslinging, but it doesn't really matter. Jim and the rest of the people at RED know what they have in their possession. No one else does.

Very, very true Steve. And I agree with you completely. Well said. I respect MANY people at CML, but the needling and sarcasm gets a little too much at times. It seems like there are 5-8 main posters there, most who are wonderfully helpful.

I think the reason why many here jump at news is simply because they are financially invested and enjoy good news. Do they get carried away? Sure they do.

However I find a pervasive negativity regarding all things red to exist in other places (incl CML) as well. Sometimes it seems that it is bashing for bashing's sake, rather than for any pointed reason.

Despite the fact that I own an Epic, I am really brand-agnostic, so I find it rather amusing, and sometimes disheartening when it goes too far.

That all being said... with only one chart of "sample footage" available, the results of dragon are already starting to live up to the hype...

Ivan

 

[Casey Green]

Quite possible your best post here to date on REDUser, Jarred. Thank you for this.

Heh heh. Screw them all

Just kidding. Quite honestly we deserve some of the slack that we get.

Remember we have only been making cameras for a few years now... and we have made some mistakes a along the way. Some of the bits in the very first round of our accessories.. That fucking mini hd-sdi... o my, we have a healthy list of sidesteps that seemed like such a great idea at the time. No wonder we pissed some people off along the way

But we learn.... listen to you guys, and ourselves.. and we move forward.

For all those out there that don't like some piece of what we do.. just tell them to give us some time. Tell them to take a second look if it's been awhile. We likely will get to where they want to be. We will continue to push things forward to the very bleeding edge as long as you guys are happy to stick around for the ride. We have been building a library of technology over that last few years that you are just beginning to see a sliver of. If you think Dragon is impressive.. just wait.

Speaking of which.. a ton of credit needs to go to our engineers ( and their families that we stole them from).

You know Graeme, and Rob, but there is also a whole team of software and hardware and sensor gods that work tirelessly in the background, writing code, pushing buttons, inventing.. taking huge risks solving impossible problems, Listening to Jim or my crazy ideas and then watching us have temper tantrums because something isn't working.

But they always dig down and come back up completely exceeding any expectations.

Making this stuff isn't easy. It is relentless. This is 18 hours a day , holidays and weekends , don't-go-home-till-it-is-done kind of work. .. it has been that way since we began.

I'm not a religious man but God bless our engineers.. and for all of you out there still with a drink in your hand tonight raise it and give them a nod.

They deserve it.

 

[Casey Green]

Can't wait. Just market the hell out of whatever you came up with and you'll be Golden!

Global Shutter creates foundational problems in other aspects of sensor design.... as much as everyone thinks they want a global shutter they really just want the side-effects. We took things to a whole different level.

 

[Alain M]

I am sticking to say that Jim and Jarred are "ALIENS"... not normal to be in a team with these kind of people... awesome! epic! out of this planet!!! "Come on dragon light my fire....come on dragon light my fire!!!"

 

[Casey Green]

I think Jim Cameron needs to now do another deep sea dive...

The chart itself has 21 steps. One stop of dynamic range is measured when you can reproduce the two steps that bracket that stop. The top step of the chart is at clip, so you count the number of steps you can see then subtract 1 (because you need an end step at both ends) to get DR. With the DSC chart, each step is 1 stop apart so the math is easy. Jim's 18+ figure is very reasonable. And tweaking will continue too...

I remember testing one of their earlier (18 step charts I think) DR charts in their lab, and actually melting the chart trying to get enough light through it so that the spectroradiometer we were using to measure the brightness of each step could actually read the bottom couple of steps. Measuring this kind of DR isn't easy. The human eye certainly can't see that DR on that chart in real life. I don't think anyone has seen that chart be lit up end-to-end like that on a high quality motion picture camera. That bottom step has 1/2,097,152 less light coming from it than the brightest step. I'm sure Dave Corely will be rather impressed with this result when he sees it!

Graeme

 

[Waleed Al Shehhi]

While You are here Jarred - just to ask again (its next to impossible to read through everything here):

With any Scarlet-to-DragonEpic trade-in program months if not year+ away - Any chance of Scarlet trade-in to "normal" non-Dragon Epic in the meantime? Then pay for a Dragon update as any other Epic owner would?

++++1

 

[Brendan Sandham]

For comparison then, the human body is worth about $160 in basic elements.

That made me laugh out loud...well played : ).

 

[Adam Eden]

I hope that the early adopters of Epic M like myself are rewarded early in the Dragon upgrades since we both paid the extra money and also supported the Epic scheme first.
I would be happy to pay $10k for the upgrade

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

While You are here Jarred - just to ask again (its next to impossible to read through everything here):

With any Scarlet-to-DragonEpic trade-in program months if not year+ away - Any chance of Scarlet trade-in to "normal" non-Dragon Epic in the meantime? Then pay for a Dragon update as any other Epic owner would?

I'd love an upgrade pat the non-Dragon epic. I think the upgrade to Dragon-Epic may now be out of my budget range, but going up to an Epic may work for me!!

 

[Dmitry Burenok]

....We are however.. going to be offering a trade-in program...

You gonna be kidding us, correct? Or you want other camera vendors to commit suicide? They didn't sale anything yet (NOTHING AT ALL, to be precise) and you already offering a trade in program for 4k cameras? No mercy for poor SONY and ARRI? Jarred, how dare you are?!

 

[Thibaut de Chemellier]

As a Scarlet owner (#48), is there any faster path to Dragon, I mean, upgrading now to EPIC M-X is not going to change anything right ?

What will be Anamorphic capabilities of Dragon sensor ?