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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"Dueling with DRAGON: RED's 6K Sensor Takes on Older MX in This EPIC Camera Shootout"

Max M. said:
This and more DR where the reason i upgraded. 6k instead of 5k, don't care. The 2 main selling points turn out to be alot less then promised. And phil, jim said it the past iso 2000 would look as clean as iso800 on mx... It has been said by red. Lets hope new firmware and an updated olpf will solve the problem.
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maybe this were the main selling points, but this are not the main real life points - DR is very good, it´s all about what is usable for you, some accept more clipping, some bit more grain - taste. ISO2000 is not (my) real world shooting. but colors, the dense and overall emotion of an image, that is the main point. not one single aspect, the whole image impression is at the end what you see. and here, i can say (for me) - i am really happy with the dragon - i like it much more than MX (so, MX is still a great camera with great results).
 
Isaac Marchionna said:
I've seen another local Dragon's footage and it still displayed the same level of footage as mine. That or mine is just broken. /shrugs
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Isaac, are you saying that your camera (and the other one you mention) always goes green in underexposure under daylight sources like they did in Ryan's test?

Of all the .R3Ds I've looked at from the new OLPF Dragon, and as freely and willingly as people complain about the camera on this forum, I haven't seen it or know of any complaints about that.

If Ryan's MacTech LEDs are causing the anomaly (as he suspects) then perhaps the next thing to do is test Dragon under a variety of daylight sources (or, at the very least, one more) to see how widespread the problem is or if it's isolated to that particular model or brand.

I can see how it would be easy to assume this is Dragon's normal behavior when MX didn't exhibit these problems under the same conditions. But, given that I can't find one other example of Dragon behaving like this, it makes me question when and how often a person might realistically encounter these same results.
 
Jan Reiff said:
maybe this were the main selling points, but this are not the main real life points - DR is very good, it´s all about what is usable for you, some accept more clipping, some bit more grain - taste. ISO2000 is not (my) real world shooting. but colors, the dense and overall emotion of an image, that is the main point. not one single aspect, the whole image impression is at the end what you see. and here, i can say (for me) - i am really happy with the dragon - i like it much more than MX (so, MX is still a great camera with great results).
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All what you have said is true Jan, but we would just really like to have a spec description true to the cameras capabilities... that's all.

At the end of the day, if you go into the supermarket to buy a tin of baked beans, but find out that the tin is half full when you get home, you will be pissed won't you?
 
Gunleik, I am at this very dilema... I got the email to upgrade, have finally got my financing ready, and all this OLPF debacle broke off. I remember yours, Peter Callister ASC and other's Dragon tests with the old OLPF and it was all great. I have the Epic MX, haven't installed the flare guard which was a big issue to some Epic users... My question is what should I do? Low light for me is REALLY IMPORTANT. I shoot motorsports- https://vimeo.com/80187608- and use fast shutter, slow motion and ISO up to 1280 a lot. Also I shoot a lot of night, natural light documentary material,https://vimeo.com/38020250 its what I like to do and part of my "artistic" work. I was seeing my Dragon upgrade as finally being able to achieve the DSMC concept and usage in my projects. I am not much of a "studio" shooter... What are really the main issues of the old OLPF? Is it a deal breaker, a step back vs old MX? I just don't know what to right now. Funds pending...Motorsports pays my bills, Low light natural shooting is what I love to do. This test made me really worry if this is a step back to my type of work...Help! I just need some clear information basience! What can I expect From OLD OLPF in Real world shooting vs the NEW vs MX? This test made me feel that for my type of shooting MX is actually better than Dragon New OLPF. What about OLD OLPF? Anyone with an OLD and NEW that can share in a real world, natural light situation? All this will obviously be a thing of the past in the near future with the swappable OLPF. However, my concern is really about what should I do now with my order!

EDIT- I know I've posted this somewhere else, its the last time I'm going to ask this, but, really, I need your help in this. the upgrade plus rocket X is no spare change, and having major motorsports events that are my bread and butter coming in the next 3 months, I can't afford to lose this job ! :)
 
Does nobody remember the original Stouffer chart Red showed with 18 stops? And saying it killed HDRX? Everyone was happy to talk about DR then. This cannot be the same sensor.
 
Sergio I've been shooting with the OLD OLPF since December.
I was going to change to the new one, but then news about the one stop light loss broke.
I can tell you I haven't had one shot where skin tone was a problem. If there was sensor/olpf flaring from the sun, it only added character to the shot, if anything.
From what I've seen, any general improvement to colors from the New OLPF is very,very subtle.
However, losing a stop of light (New OLPF) would have been a serious issue on many occasions, resulting in poor shadows, or time and money on set to increase the light. Maybe not an issue for day exteriors, but in a studio, shooting high frame rates, pulling keys, that might be a bad situation for the new OLPF. There's no way that I'd swap my OLD for a new OLPF right now.
Everyone seemed incredibly happy with the old OLPF, until Red offered something else.
If I were you, I'd get the OLD OLPF installed for now, despite all the advice i hear on Reduser to the contrary.
 
there is no business like ...
 
Jan Reiff said:
but they never said this will be in the final camera i remember ...
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David Litchfield said:
Then why show it? Other than hype and to get people's money.
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That chart IS the currently shipping Dragon. This is not the original chart RED showed. My point is David said it can't be the same sensor because that original chart showed 18 stops. I was showing that it looks to be the same sensor to me, based on what Gavin and Stacey found.

RED claims 16.5 stops of DR and every DR wedge test chart I've seen supports that claim. The problem seems to be some people stop counting stops as soon as they see the slightest bit of noise when, to my understanding, that's not how it works. You count as many discernible wedges you can before they're indistinguishable from the noise floor.

Just because someone doesn't feel comfortable using the noisier stops doesn't mean they don't exist.

It seems to stack up like this in practical use with the OLPF V2 (per individual tastes):

If you don't have access to enough lights and you're sensitive to noise in your images, Dragon has about 13-14 stops of DR.

If you don't mind a little texture in your images, Dragon has 14-15 stops of DR.

If you're able and inclined to employ NR, Dragon has 15-16 stops of DR.
 
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David Litchfield said:
Does nobody remember the original Stouffer chart Red showed with 18 stops? And saying it killed HDRX? Everyone was happy to talk about DR then. This cannot be the same sensor.
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I think this was from the sensor outside of the camera body and that you lose a little perfomance when squeezing eveything in a small box as an epic body.
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
I think this was from the sensor outside of the camera body and that you lose a little perfomance when squeezing eveything in a small box as an epic body.
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In which case I guess the next upgrade will be a larger body with better cooling and more outputs, with the added benefit of seeing those 18 stops.
 
Brian Boyer said:
Isaac, are you saying that your camera (and the other one you mention) always goes green in underexposure under daylight sources like they did in Ryan's test?
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Yes. So far that's what I've seen. I think the green was due to the lights in regards to this test. I don't think it's my camera specifically. If it is then yay for red quality control. If red thinks this test indicates my camera is faulty I welcome them to email me and get it back for servicing.

I love the image off this camera, but I'll be honest I was sold into it by the new ISO, all the early test footage, etc, and that's not what I got. So far this camera isn't flying off the shelf for rentals, and I have regretted that I jumped from mx so quickly. I don't hate the purchase. It's just not the camera I was sold into originally.
 
.... therein lies the point. Red should deliver what it says on the tin. And the argument about "usable" DR just isn't justifiable. IMHO.
 
On this one RED definitely went way too far on the hype. I'm sure it's frustrating for them as well. I'm sure the intentions were there to squeeze all they could out of the Dragon, and were really working in the direction of wowing people with 18 stops. Overdeliver. But as the process went by they probably figured out that it couldn't happen and had to trim somewhere, and the lowlight capability ended up being what suffered. I think the swappable OLPF is the best that can be done at this point. But I wish they would fix the specs that will show what is in reality being delivered...
 
Isaac Marchionna said:
Yes. So far that's what I've seen. I think the green was due to the lights in regards to this test. I don't think it's my camera specifically.
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I'm sorry. I'm a little confused by your answer. You start off answering my question about it always going green with, "Yes. So far that's what I've seen."

Then you state the green is due to the lights, which seems to contradict your first statement about it always going green. So, I'm not sure what's always the case and what was an isolated occurrence due to the lights.
 
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