DSMC3

[Sean Keen]

Hi guys

Huge move by RED with Komodo, image look damn good, even compared to bigger boys, bringing me an idea about new line with much much better performance .....

Hoping for this year announcement.

Any leaks , ideas , thoughts ???

 

[Nick Morrison]

That's the idea...

 

[Brad Grimm]

No one knows. I suspect it will be a huge step forward, but may be a bit delayed do to the pandemic.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

No one knows. I suspect it will be a huge step forward, but may be a bit delayed do to the pandemic.

Don't think it will. There's not much more you can do. Maybe push more stops, make it all global shuttered, higher framerates, less noise. I mean, there's a limit to what can be improved with the image.
I think the biggest change will be functionality. We will see internal focus controls, internal wireless video (more advanced than Komodo), better cooling, autofocus etc.

It's like... what else do you need? Personally, I feel Komodo is the best camera they've done ever. So a Komodo-like body with a full-frame sensor at 8K pulling 100 fps and being virtually noiseless at reasonable ISOs while having in-camera tracking for virtual cameras in post and stabilization would be the sweet spot that really can't be improved much further past what you actually need.

We're hitting diminishing returns for cameras right now. People want "more more more", but what is actually needed? Seems like people scream for more without knowing. It's like... if I can't create good stuff with my Komodo, what else do I need? I fail to see any purpose of DSMC3 if it's not all about bringing advanced functionality and reducing the bulkiness of the DSMC2 lineup.

 

[Sean Keen]

I need Full frame with true dual ISO and good frame-rates with 1:1 quality and super colors and sensitivity, internal NDs, good EVF , all res downscale without crop,silent and batt efficient with size of Komodo and price around 30k for a body.

 

[Giles Harvey]

:smilewinkgrin:

I need Full frame with true dual ISO and good frame-rates with 1:1 quality and super colors and sensitivity, internal NDs, good EVF , all res downscale without crop,silent and batt efficient with size of Komodo and price around 30k for a body.

 

[Dan Kanes]

I’m predicting Ranger is a body form factor prototype for DSMC3, and we will probably get many of the things we are asking for , but probably lose some of the things that are niceties of the DSMC1/2 legacy - which is totally ok.

Time to change it up ! I’m predicting 2022

 

[Luka Sanader]

personally i think DSMC concept should be scraped. this inherited form factor and gos back to the Epic M days and big factor that determined that shape was possibility for Stereoscopy and mirror rigs. Non of that is relevant in 2021.

1) form factor !! in last 5 years it came to us all that form of Alexsa Mini is most desirable and easiest form factor to work with. Kinefinty Mavo Edge made this concept of mixing Alexsa Mini and DSMC2 in a best possible way. Komodo is also a proof of that. Cube camera that can shoot out of the box.

2)Epic Lens mount is a problem. yes it was innovative in 2008 but Komodo proved that Mirrorless is a way to go. RF or Sony E or Nikon or even some Red flavor mount but it would be nice to see something super shallow, tool-less, strong and with Positive Lock or even a sub mount like Sony FZ was or A-mount...

3) Internal NDs are must! I have several of OLPF and i love them but after almost a decade shooting with Red i would be willing to sacrifice them for the conviniance of having internal ND any day.

what ever comes next is up to debate, more resolution, higher base ISO, more FPS... but this 3 points on a form, usability and versatility of new cameras have to be taken in consideration. Clit Eastwood said once that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one; sure and this is mine: DSMC concept is dead and it should be put to rest. If Red has future Komodo is that future. By having 3 cameras, Ranger MK2, new big Komodo style FF 8k and this small factor small 6k S35 Komodo Red would nail it . I would love to see Gemini Komodo before any new DSMC3 or new concept cameras.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Don't think it will. There's not much more you can do. Maybe push more stops, make it all global shuttered, higher framerates, less noise. I mean, there's a limit to what can be improved with the image.
I think the biggest change will be functionality. We will see internal focus controls, internal wireless video (more advanced than Komodo), better cooling, autofocus etc.

Add in IBIS, full featured body with NDs and at least 1 or 2 XLR or minXLR

 

[Alex Lubensky]

Honestly, a lot of things here are subjective. While, I kind of agree with shorter flange distance is a must nowadays, I still prefer the old mount system - where you can swap a mount instead of going with adapters. Adapters are non-reliable, often imperfect optically and loose with any given build quality. Once you put a Cooke Ana 2x on an adapter - the focus motor torque is going to easily twist the lens inside something like an RF mount with adapter. I'd rather see something like shorter flange mount system, like Lerca M-Mount was on DSMC1, but with RF-Mount specs. Much more robust for on-set work, much more precise in terms of keeping the flange distance in place.

Have to say also, once I've put a PL mount on my Scarlet, it lives there all the time. Just depends on which lenses you shoot mostly. I kind of think RED should stick more to on-set workflows rather then indies. Some people might never put a heavy zoom lens on their camera, but those lenses exist and you should be able to make it in a proper way.

Also agree with ND's, but don't agree with OLPF - I would never eliminate the OLPF as a system. Komodo OLPF is good enough to make it the only one actually needed, so if Alexa Mini could incorporate internal ND's with an OLPF, also C70 has internal ND's and RF-Mount, so it's def. doable.

But the possibilities opened with Komodo, and, some new lenses and technologies released this year - made cinema grade cameras much more friendly to a single-op style of shooting. I think easier - is a way to go for the next decade. Now it's not about K's, it's all about how you handle it and how easily or fast you can do it.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Honestly, a lot of things here are subjective. While, I kind of agree with shorter flange distance is a must nowadays, I still prefer the old mount system - where you can swap a mount instead of going with adapters. Adapters are non-reliable, often imperfect optically and loose with any given build quality.

Why not just use the same type of adapter screws as the Canon speedbooster? If Red could make their own RF adapter for EF, PL etc. with such screws, it should stick to the camera just as good as any native mount we screwed on the old DSMC2s.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Side note.

Does anyone know if its possible to make an adapter going from RF mount to DSMC mount? In other words is the DSMC mounts mounted further away from the sensor than RF flange distance? If so it would be nice to make a adapter that is seated firmly onto the camera like the revolva chinstrap which then we could screw old red mounts onto. I got my Leica and FD red mounts would be nice to be able to use them on Komodo and even for those having red PL mounts laying around. Always nice to recycle. But possibly the flange is to long on RF.


PL is 52mm RF is 20 so that gives us 32mm to play with, seams like that is more than what's needed to have the old red mounts infront of the RF mount.... no?

Edit: just mesured it. Yes possible to make a RF to DSMC mount adapter.... Why is that not done allready?

 

[M Harvey]

I think the biggest change will be functionality. We will see internal focus controls, internal wireless video (more advanced than Komodo), better cooling, autofocus etc.

I'd tend to agree with Christoffer on this. Image quality can always improve in certain ways (global shutter perhaps being one of them), but we're in a pretty incredible place now with image quality even in sub-$10k cameras. So a significant part of the way forward would seem to be in the increased integration of cameras with other technologies.

I'd expect features that lean on enhanced wireless and computing. Komodo does point the way here. The Red Control app is great. And while I wouldn't rely on the ad-hoc mode wifi for image capture, I was amazed at how easy it was to stream from the body to my phone/tablet/laptop. So maybe there's even more of a role for mobile tech in the future. New autofocus technologies (both internal and in systems like the Light Ranger 2 and the new Teradek) are impressive, motion control systems are becoming cheaper and less complicated (Komodo size/weight/form factor are great for this), and I can imagine Red might be thinking about how these technologies manifest on set.

Along these lines, are there more things Red could do to enhance VFX and virtual production workflows? Do new AF capabilities also mean more data to supply to VFX-- even with manual focus lenses that don't offer data ports? (I realize that rangefinder systems probably could, but contrast detect systems with a "dumb" manual lens currently don't.) I don't do a lot of VFX heavy work, but I'm seeing it more even on low-budget stuff. And I don't think aspects of "live" VFX technologies (The Mandalorian, Lion King, etc.) are too far off for lower budget stuff. I'm a novice here, but have to imagine that cameras can be "smarter" in how they respond to these new image ecosystems.

Is part of DSMC3 about software from Red that collapses production and post? Redcine-X + Red Control in one? Built-in wireless connections robust enough to rely on for image capture and stream?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Let me add CFexpress. my angel bird CF show approx 500 MB/s my angel bird CFexpress rate 1500 MB/s write. 1700 read.

 

[Brad Grimm]

Don't think it will. There's not much more you can do. Maybe push more stops, make it all global shuttered, higher framerates, less noise. I mean, there's a limit to what can be improved with the image.
I think the biggest change will be functionality. We will see internal focus controls, internal wireless video (more advanced than Komodo), better cooling, autofocus etc.

It's like... what else do you need? Personally, I feel Komodo is the best camera they've done ever. So a Komodo-like body with a full-frame sensor at 8K pulling 100 fps and being virtually noiseless at reasonable ISOs while having in-camera tracking for virtual cameras in post and stabilization would be the sweet spot that really can't be improved much further past what you actually need.

We're hitting diminishing returns for cameras right now. People want "more more more", but what is actually needed? Seems like people scream for more without knowing. It's like... if I can't create good stuff with my Komodo, what else do I need? I fail to see any purpose of DSMC3 if it's not all about bringing advanced functionality and reducing the bulkiness of the DSMC2 lineup.

Komodo is a fantastic camera, but the best sensor they made is the Monstro, No question about it. That being said, I am sure RED has something big up their slaves, Komodos are selling like Hot cakes, but they need some high priced cameras for bigger profit margins, and to justify those prices, the technology will need to be a big leap. I am in love with my Monstro, and it will take a lot for me to want to upgrade it for sure.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Add in IBIS, full featured body with NDs and at least 1 or 2 XLR or minXLR

1x TA5 is the way to go. With AES and 48V input
Please give us no frame latency on HDSDI out ;-) and instant 1x1 manification while recording.

PS: and no fan...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Side note.

Does anyone know if its possible to make an adapter going from RF mount to DSMC mount? In other words is the DSMC mounts mounted further away from the sensor than RF flange distance? If so it would be nice to make a adapter that is seated firmly onto the camera like the revolva chinstrap which then we could screw old red mounts onto. I got my Leica and FD red mounts would be nice to be able to use them on Komodo and even for those having red PL mounts laying around. Always nice to recycle. But possibly the flange is to long on RF.


PL is 52mm RF is 20 so that gives us 32mm to play with, seams like that is more than what's needed to have the old red mounts infront of the RF mount.... no?

Edit: just mesured it. Yes possible to make a RF to DSMC mount adapter.... Why is that not done allready?

Are you talking about a mount that would be round from the RF mount to a big square flange that would hold the old DSMC mounts?

Seems like it would be pretty clunky and fairly fussy to manufacturer in what would seem to be pretty low volume. (but I have a DSMC PL mount to sell if it would:wink5.

Also not sure how it would be any better to go from the RF mount to the RED mounts vs the RF to Canon ef or PL that are already available.