DSMC2 users petition to RED

[Les Hillis]

About the media...

I did a quick search and found for sale the same model of Micron SSD's used in the 480GB RED MiniMags that I've looked inside of (there's also a 960GB version of the same thing that's probably also what RED used to sell).

The 480GB SSD's are on sale for $361USD (usually $475USD) and the 960GB ones are on sale for $634USD (usually $834USD).

No idea what that particular stores (or the world's) actual stock levels are, but I'd seriously consider buying some of those for backups, if RED aren't going to make any more of the MiniMags after their current stock sells out, and if they weren't blocked (not sure how that works exactly). The current RED 480GB MiniMags at $1450USD each are a hard sell even if they're the only option left for official new DSMC2 media.

Micron themselves don't even make the old RedMag mSATA form-factor drives anymore by the look of it, so I guess any further DSMC2 media anyone might make will be the 'Longtake' type using M.2 SSD's.

Had a look too while I was there at the latest of those M.2 SSD's that Micron makes and you can get the 512GB version off the shelf for $116USD (25 unit bulk price)/$132USD (individual price), and the 1TB version of those for $207USD (25 unit bulk price)/$238USD (individual price).

Don't know which Samsung SSD's Kippertie were using or the current price and availability of those. But yeah, M.2, newer, faster, cheaper in general. Even cheaper than using the old mSATA SSD's, but with the added hassle of less readily available cases/shells/enclosures for them, and, locked out, unless RED wants to put something together.

Which is what it comes down to for me personally, cheaper MiniMags, or new more affordable RED DSMC2 M.2 based media, either complete or just the enclosures and a list of recommended and unlocked (but not necessarily warrantied or guaranteed or individually tested) SSD drives to put in them that can be bought elsewhere (if RED don't want to actually sell them). Or, I don't know.

Just extremely reluctant to go the 2nd hand or hacked route when it comes to digital recording media, but still want to use the DSMC2 platform indefinitely.

Sign of the times perhaps, compared to the old days when they also stopped selling previous camera models, but you could still buy new film (the recording media) for the one you had.

Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. After seeing what people have come up with, the ongoing DSMC2 media support/availability/affordability is the only thing I'd ask RED to look into.

 

[Zack Birlew]

There are M.2 to SATA adapters readily and cheaply available so it's up to RED if they want to make M.2 media adapters for all of their legacy cameras, even the RED One, and even if we have to pre-format them to 128/240/480/960GB to be recognized by the camera because, as we all know, media will grow over time, that would be a preferable workaround to leaving these historic cameras in technological limbo.

 

[Jon Dishler]

Red is offering 24 month no interest financing on Raptor and Raptor XL. To me that sounds like they are having some trouble moving them and the days of having to wait months to get your Red camera are in the rearview mirror. What does that mean? It means that Red is not going to do anything to help people keep their old cameras going longer, they want for you to buy new ones. I think they would have been better off not discounting the present value of new merchandise and kept the trade in program going. I would be more likely to trade in my DSMC2 cameras for shiny new ones if there was a reasonable pathway. Apple has realized this for a long, long time.

 

[Luka Sanader]

Red is offering 24 month no interest financing on Raptor and Raptor XL. To me that sounds like they are having some trouble moving them and the days of having to wait months to get your Red camera are in the rearview mirror. What does that mean? It means that Red is not going to do anything to help people keep their old cameras going longer, they want for you to buy new ones. I think they would have been better off not discounting the present value of new merchandise and kept the trade in program going. I would be more likely to trade in my DSMC2 cameras for shiny new ones if there was a reasonable pathway. Apple has realized this for a long, long time.

Reds brake in to the market was in the different realty. Dalsa Digital Cinema Camera costed 200K and Red came form the hole in the wall offering 4k for 4000$, and they delivered and they had a masses cheating for them . Lets face it they had forum based free RND where everyone was trying to help the underdog... Now Red is what Dalsa and Sony main stream and Kinefinty is the underdog just the game became smaller. Top offerings are now 40k and underdogs are 10k. There is tons of cameras, bunch of new offerings every few months, used market is overflown, Not even most desirable cameras on the planet like Mini LF and ALexsa 35 are no more exclusive ... so for sure red needs 0% interests and other incentives to try to stuff already saturated market with technology that we almost dont need. Look what was the difference between Arri Alexa first generation ore Red Epic MX on the one side and a Mini35 DOF adapter that was used just yer or two before. that was quantum jump and look at difference between Raptor and Monstro? Or Venice and Venice2? In realty we are forced to re invest and make huge spendings in order to buy what we already have just because we wont have more support . And i think this is what make us salty and that is why many of as left Red and many of as are living now.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Red is offering 24 month no interest financing on Raptor and Raptor XL. To me that sounds like they are having some trouble moving them and the days of having to wait months to get your Red camera are in the rearview mirror. What does that mean? It means that Red is not going to do anything to help people keep their old cameras going longer, they want for you to buy new ones. I think they would have been better off not discounting the present value of new merchandise and kept the trade in program going. I would be more likely to trade in my DSMC2 cameras for shiny new ones if there was a reasonable pathway. Apple has realized this for a long, long time.

That might have worked had the cameras dropped down in price with streamlining of the production process but no. RED had originally been about getting groundbreaking tech into as many hands as possible but while $17,500 was a groundbreaking price for industry folks, it was quite a lot for many beginners and established indies who dreaded a $10,000 let alone a $5,000 investment for a top of the line camera and instead of embracing the modular camera idea or lower priced models, we got bombarded with new completely different $20,000 to $80,000 models again and again with no tap out for customers aside from trade-ins had they bought in earlier and no give on accessory or media prices over time even for EOL models. Yes, it would be nice if people bought the new models but some of the older models are better tools than much of the current competition out there and can still be used for a good while yet and, arguably, look and work better for some than Komodo and V-Raptor could.

Wouldn't it be better for RED to have their products be continually used on productions at all levels rather than filmmakers opting for the latest mirrorless photo camera or yesterday's top video camera option? There is a thread on the EOSHD forums right now that's called "What OG cams you got your eyes on going into 2023?" and out of all the options they discuss, none of them are a RED! There's Sony F5, Canon C500, Canon C200, original Sony A7S, etc. but no talk about picking up an old RED camera. Granted, looking at some of those myself, there's some killer deals out there for those used 4K cameras and, at the same time, the RED Epic Dragon is now starting to hit the sub-$3,000 level. However, the point is that there's not even the thought even at the current lowest point of entry for an Epic Dragon to even look at a RED camera for as little as a supplementary high framerate camera.

On the used market, RED media still goes for hundreds and thousands, accessories range from scrap to practically MSRP, and most of the bodies and starter kits, even Helium 8K, are dropping under $10,000 with Monstro bodies, shockingly, for as little as $14,000 now. RED could make a big move and give life to this used market of cameras, even someone starting with a RED One MX currently at $900 for a fully functioning body, and have all kinds of new starting indies and current filmmakers that have come up never using a RED and give themselves a new reputation that will hopefully be better than the one of the never ending questioning argument over stability, image quality, etc. But no matter how many threads we start, the ball is in RED's court and NAB is seemingly always only a few months away so they have a good opportunity to strike while the iron's hot.

 

[Phil Holland]

Some fascinating perspectives and opinions, but also fairly weird.

I'll speak about DSMC3 first. Somewhere it's being overlooked that the other two major players offerings are 3X and 4X the cost in regards to V-Raptor 8K VV and even S35.

The other perhaps interesting thing to note is with inflation 2007's $17,500 equates to about $25K. So they've somehow went back to that tier in some ways and are exploring lower and higher with Komodo and XL.

Used technology doesn't exactly shockingly drop in value. It is interesting seeing the bare bones pricing which nearly makes no sense to me on some gear. I've talked to a few who price low to sell fast and I get that. Especially after they've made their ROI several times over on a given system. There's also fast sells when items are hot, often near their release. Just saw 4 Alexa 35s go in the last month with exactly that logic.

I'm confused in Zack's logic that RED doesn't have "continually used on productions at all levels" because they are and have been. There's still people rolling with 1-3 generations back. Camera companies in general need to make new products to stay relevant if they want to have any sort of positioning in the modern production landscape.

We know that Raptor and Komodo have been vastly better sellers than RED's previous offerings and I do think price to performance ratio is playing a huge role here. Both were backordered hard along the way until fairly recently.

I think it also bares to note that RED is a RAW camera first, and one of the only ones really now, and isn't exactly the first tool (or the tool at all) to grab with people are doing AVCHD/H.265 acquisition, which a lot of people out there do. Especially for extremely nimble day to day shoots. RED's in this weird space where they need to stand up to the most premium priced options and also be appealing to more budget minded filmmakers. The other interesting thing is many of the most premium cameras aren't actually owned by DPs, but often are focused more on a rental model. There are certainly owner operators, but I'd say that is rare in the case of higher end Sony and ARRI offerings at this point. RED to me is still providing a pathway to ownership and certainly so considering what the cameras can actually do.

I think it's interesting to mention EOSHD in there, because if I recall correctly Andrew did buy a used RED sometime ago.

In regards to financing discussion. Keep in mind Sony offered 0% for 12 and 24 as well as "1.99%" for 36 months in October of last year. Arri also offered 0% for 12 months and other options for up to 60 months late last year. Not shockingly, companies want to get you into buying their cameras in one way or another. Whether you can pay for it outright, credit it out, or finance it. All companies goals are to move product.

 

[Brian Timmons]

I think they would have been better off not discounting the present value of new merchandise and kept the trade in program going. I would be more likely to trade in my DSMC2 cameras for shiny new ones if there was a reasonable pathway. Apple has realized this for a long, long time.

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/01/18...lain-trade-in/

TLDR version: Apple is getting flack for offering $970 trade in value for a 2019 Mac Pro that originally cost over $50k.


I don't think RED, Apple, or most companies can afford to give the nicer trade in deals from 5 or 10 years ago.
We are in a very different economic climate than even the Great Recession and those type of deals are likely not particularly good
for the bottom line when inflation is already considerably adding to production costs.

Having said that, I can understand how people can get pissed with seeing a major investment losing perceived market value overnight particularly if you're still paying it off.

It can also be argued that the perception of market value is often based on factors that have nothing to do with the real value of the equipment
particularly in it's ability to help one get work done.

I would argue that pretty much every RED DSMC 1 or 2 camera that has ever been made is still world class.
They are still unique high end tools that make exceptional images that can bring in some bank.

I have a RED One MX that I still get on gigs (albeit with 2 other Komodo's) and it still creates great images that work well with even the Komodos.

I've seen too many situations where colleagues I know were able to get exceptional gigs even with gear that was yesteryear and supposedly outdated.

Yes, some clients are definitely more demanding than others and a few do have a prejudice against anything RED but I've run into more people where the
RED brand name actually helped open doors or past work made with RED gear fostered and maintained the opportunity.

I hear the frustrations people have but respect the power you wield with your gear.

Still hope RED can make a few last improvements to DSMC 2 firmware and maintains a policy of supporting their older models for as reasonably possible.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[James Sielaff]

Some fascinating perspectives and opinions, but also fairly weird.

I hear the frustrations people have but respect the power you wield with your gear.

Of course there will be a few negative comments towards RED.




It is important to remember the spirit of this thread is very positive: “We love our camera, can we pay for an accessory/firmware? “




No one is really going to be able to peg RED down, since the company still seems to be making sales and have predominantly done well, particularly in marketing desirability. They deserve credit. The flip side to that coin, is that after 15years of very similar criticisms they also deserve aspects of their bad reputation.




If they were to add these paid upgrades for DSMC owners, you may see confidence in the brand increase, since used Alexa’s are currently similarly priced in the used market as reds. If we saw used DSMC demand suddenly increase, due to these upgrade requests, then technically DSMC would have played the longer game in value, as well as RED making a little money and delivering on the old promise of “obsolescence obsolete”





That would be an interesting plot twist. And that is what this thread is about at its heart.

 

[NathanHenneton]

James, I'm more reading about people wanting bug fixed in their expensive camera. (like fixing Issue with playback on Monstro (Red previous Flagship camera) in Anamorphic ?).
As well as hopening the media to user choice as it's has been proven that Red mini were off the shelfs SSDs, and that the data rate required by DSMC2 can easily be matched by SSD M2

Don't start me on "faulty ssds" and "Red Reputation" as I have like a few reports of failled CFAST "approved by red" Fail on Komodo from producers and cinematographer that I know for the last year or so and dropped frame from approved red media on V-Raptor.
The only way we could have better data would be to have dual recording.

 

[Kenneth interiano]

I’m pretty sure red will make a firmware update out of spite and sneak a self destruct sequence in the code like apple does to force people to buy a new phone .

Guess I’ll only trust a firmware update if it’s paid .

We know redcode can be written on regular ssd’s and inside red mags are cheap Kingston drives .
let us replace our mags with Samsung ssds please

 

[Luka Sanader]

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/01/18...lain-trade-in/

...

... Having said that, I can understand how people can get pissed with seeing a major investment losing perceived market value overnight particularly if you're still paying it off.

It can also be argued that the perception of market value is often based on factors that have nothing to do with the real value of the equipment
particularly in it's ability to help one get work done.

...
I hear the frustrations people have but respect the power you wield with your gear.



Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

this is missing the point and i am sorry if the tone of this tread went to nagging direction.

let me try to explain: I have no issues that my Red Monstro that was 80k package now sales for 10k. I think this devalorization is due to bad strategical planing of the branding and auto-chauvinism of red owners on the other hand. But i dont want to cry over spoiled milk. That camera lost 60K over period of 4 yers and it made about 200K (in getting me gigis, investments in the projects and small time rentals) so fair to say i would not have nothing to complain. I can take this cam and trope it in to the trash can and call it a day, right? No! its still investment and i can still use it.
The only problem is that RED is trying to starve me out with media and periphery. I can use Monstro for next 4 yers and am sure it will still be a good Cam! but i cant. I dont have support for it.
So this is what we are against it hire. We are not complaining about why RED wont take our 7 yers old Scarlet W and give us brand new DSMC3 camera for extra 5K.. no one is asking for that. No one asks RED to fo out and fix its bad image it has in the industry (best camera with worst posible PR). We dont expect that RED will fix a world for us... We expect that they respect us, and that they provide spare parts, and fix issue with expendables so we can keep working.
I shoot with Raptor and its OK but not enough for me to switch form Monstro. Just the fact that someone is forcing me to trow away perfect VV 8K Raw camera and sale it for penuts on use market just because they dorn want to open a gate for us. They have opened gates for 3ed party on DSCM3 line so why not for us
If RED has no interest in developing firmware or making media i am sure people would invest in RND. Bottom line is that it seams that only thing Red is interested in is selling us more bodies

 

[Brian Timmons]

this is missing the point and i am sorry if the tone of this tread went to nagging direction.

let me try to explain: I have no issues that my Red Monstro that was 80k package now sales for 10k. I think this devalorization is due to bad strategical planing of the branding and auto-chauvinism of red owners on the other hand. But i dont want to cry over spoiled milk. That camera lost 60K over period of 4 yers and it made about 200K (in getting me gigis, investments in the projects and small time rentals) so fair to say i would not have nothing to complain. I can take this cam and trope it in to the trash can and call it a day, right? No! its still investment and i can still use it.
The only problem is that RED is trying to starve me out with media and periphery. I can use Monstro for next 4 yers and am sure it will still be a good Cam! but i cant. I dont have support for it.
So this is what we are against it hire. We are not complaining about why RED wont take our 7 yers old Scarlet W and give us brand new DSMC3 camera for extra 5K.. no one is asking for that. No one asks RED to fo out and fix its bad image it has in the industry (best camera with worst posible PR). We dont expect that RED will fix a world for us... We expect that they respect us, and that they provide spare parts, and fix issue with expendables so we can keep working.
I shoot with Raptor and its OK but not enough for me to switch form Monstro. Just the fact that someone is forcing me to trow away perfect VV 8K Raw camera and sale it for penuts on use market just because they dorn want to open a gate for us. They have opened gates for 3ed party on DSCM3 line so why not for us
If RED has no interest in developing firmware or making media i am sure people would invest in RND. Bottom line is that it seams that only thing Red is interested in is selling us more bodies

For the most part I think we can agree to agree.

I support the call for RED continuing to support legacy gear including media.
I also think making support docs and perhaps developing an authorized repair network could further help keep those older cameras working beyond what RED can do.

Constructive criticism is a good thing and there have been some helpful points in this thread and others.
It becomes a mess when it devolves into FUD and that's where I'm hoping threads like this don't end up.

It can be tricky discerning where people are coming from in some of these forums.
On one end, some make posts with the intent of identifying an issue and improving it.
On the other end, some make posts with a more scorched Earth policy driven by anger (for reasons that actually may have some merit but poorly articulated) or that are just bat shit crazy and irrational.
Some are in between these extremes.

Being this is a RED forum primarily made up of users who already have skin in the game it might be best for us all to keep things more on the constructive side and that's what I'm generally encouraging.

​Tech was never known for retaining value year to year. Perhaps the unintended by product of Moore's law.
I showed in an earlier post how $50k Mac Pros that are a about 3 years old are trading in for just shy of $1k at Apple.

There are issues that seem to be presented in a way as if they are specific to RED when in reality they are industry wide.

Whatever the case, I don't consider this thread as nagging and definitely supports it's existence and salute you Luka for creating it.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Jon Dishler]

You keep saying this, "I showed in an earlier post how $50k Mac Pros that are an about 3 years old are trading in for just shy of $1k at Apple." and maybe true, I don't know. What I do know is that I have traded in multiple Apple devices including an old trashcan, laptops, watches, iPad's for newer ones, and about 2-4 years old always thought I got a fair deal for upgrading to newer models, nothing went down from 50 to 1, maybe 50%. My point was that if Red is having some trouble selling their newest cameras (and I think this because why else would they offer 2 years interest free financing - that costs about 20% of the purchase price), they could instead offer a reasonable trade in for the most recent camera models DSMC2 to keep the new stuff selling at list price. I have two Heliums, and with all the specialized accessories attached, I probably wouldn't want to trade them in anyway because the brain was only part of the cost. But overall I think keeping the obsolescence obsolete option open would be a good strategy for Red. Instead they are NOT going to make it easy to get new media, NOT going to come out with new firmware, and try to force people into buying the current models because of the obsolescence. It is a stick rather than a carrot. And frankly I find it disingenuous and would be angry if I had purchased an 80k camera just a few years ago. Everyone here seems to be trying to suck up to Red and beg for what they would like to see, I think that it should be more of a demand over a broken promise. Like I said, I don't really care and I have enjoyed having a couple of Red cameras, and hope that they last awhile -- but the saying is fool me once/fool me twice... I believe that many will be wary of DSMC3 because when DSMC4 or whatever comes out, then you are over. It really is a poor strategy, and that is only my opinion, to abandon your base and a drastic change from the philosophy of the past. This may be my last post.

 

[Hayk Frangulyan]

I guess one of the best ways to push RED's owner or decision makers to officially make a statement about DSMC2 line-up or answer to the questions written in this thread by you, is to find a journalists who will collect all your questions and during upcoming expo's, events or movie premiere's as they would know before head that Jared Land will be there, they need to find him and ask for an a interview or just start asking on a walk.

The other possible way I guess is that If in the industry well known DP's, Director's, Producer's will write an a official message asking RED's president to clarify about the supporting, firmware updates, overall the future of the entire DSMC2 line-up.

 

[Luka Sanader]

... Instead they are NOT going to make it easy to get new media, NOT going to come out with new firmware, and try to force people into buying the current models because of the obsolescence. It is a stick rather than a carrot...

Only thing they are achiving in this is bunch of people leaving Red for good. I have mentioned this before: tow main local fan boys who were known "Red Guy", dont use Reds any more and are really vocal about it. Now how is that for image, you have people that pushed the system, that promoted your technology that advocated so much for you and now they are staying away form it like its toxic. Things become personal people get feed up and just like that they loose interest and move on. This issue with DSMC2 media will cost a Red a big time in a log run. First there was Jinimag scandal and now this "we wont make media any more" situation. Its really strange and hard to understand why there is so much mess about this single issue

 

[TYLER STOOKSBURY]

How long have we known DSMC3 was coming? We got our first DSMC2 brain back in 2016.

I think fixing the bugs would be good. I hope they do that for y'all because they're great cameras. But for those of you mad about the value of your camera, you can't be serious, can you? RED sold a lot of DSMC2 cameras, you have to have expected a lot of used ones to hit the market when the new tools come out. This happens with all desirable products when they get updated.

DSMC3 is a much better platform and has generally been significantly less buggy.

 

[Luka Sanader]

How long have we known DSMC3 was coming? We got our first DSMC2 brain back in 2016.

I think fixing the bugs would be good. I hope they do that for y'all because they're great cameras. But for those of you mad about the value of your camera, you can't be serious, can you? RED sold a lot of DSMC2 cameras, you have to have expected a lot of used ones to hit the market when the new tools come out. This happens with all desirable products when they get updated.

DSMC3 is a much better platform and has generally been significantly less buggy.

This is epty argument! I am about to buy Alexa Mini for a project right now. camera that is older then my Monstro, Camera that is not even 4K and camera that costs 30k on used market in this moment. There is far more difference between Alexa35 and Mini and yet Mini costs 30k. Arri made more Minis then i think all DSMC2 cameras together and yet you cant buy a Mini with 5000H under 28K?.... so how do you explain that mass produced camera that is 10 years old, that has bad lowlight performanc, that is not even 4k, can hold a value but DSMC2 cant?

Second no one is asking Red to stop devaluating the product that they sale. I personally dont care about how much money i can get for my used Monstro. What i care about is that Red fixes the bugs in 3 yers old firmware, that Red stops suffocating us with unnecessary blocking of media and that we, who already have DSMC2 cameras can continu to use our cameras.
Thats all nothing more than that.

I dont care about buying new DSMC3 as i dont see that Upgrade form Monstro to the Raptor is worth of hustle. we want to use what we have without Red sabotaging us and forcing us to throw away perfectly good cameras that are by today standards still at the top of the packing order.

 

[William Long]

Luka, I'm curious as to which 'bugs' you are alluding to? Maybe one should make a list?

My DSMC2 experience has been nothing but stable - and continues to be so.

 

[TYLER STOOKSBURY]

This is epty argument! I am about to buy Alexa Mini for a project right now. camera that is older then my Monstro, Camera that is not even 4K and camera that costs 30k on used market in this moment. There is far more difference between Alexa35 and Mini and yet Mini costs 30k. Arri made more Minis then i think all DSMC2 cameras together and yet you cant buy a Mini with 5000H under 28K?.... so how do you explain that mass produced camera that is 10 years old, that has bad lowlight performanc, that is not even 4k, can hold a value but DSMC2 cant?

Second no one is asking Red to stop devaluating the product that they sale. I personally dont care about how much money i can get for my used Monstro. What i care about is that Red fixes the bugs in 3 yers old firmware, that Red stops suffocating us with unnecessary blocking of media and that we, who already have DSMC2 cameras can continu to use our cameras.
Thats all nothing more than that.

I dont care about buying new DSMC3 as i dont see that Upgrade form Monstro to the Raptor is worth of hustle. we want to use what we have without Red sabotaging us and forcing us to throw away perfectly good cameras that are by today standards still at the top of the packing order.

The Alexa Mini holds value better right now for several reasons.

- RED Replaced Monstro with a better camera that cost half as much. If they had made V-Raptor cost 40K, we'd probably see used monstro prices be a lot higher. But that wouldn't make sense for RED to do.

- Alexa 35 is expensive and they're not widely adopted yet

- ARRI has never made anything with a smaller form factor that would compete with the Mini. If you want to shoot with ARRI, the Mini is the only good option for a lot of people based on price and budget

- As dumb as it sounds, ARRI IS the popular brand at the moment. That inflates the value a bit too.

Its clear RED is making some changes to address some of the criticism they've had over the years and ultimately thats a great thing. Part of that process is painful and thats ok. While RED and ARRI get compared a lot, they're still two pretty different tools at this point. But with ARRI finally entering the 4K space, I think RED had to make some of these changes.

And I hope they fix those bugs and open up third party media. I totally agree with you there.

 

[John Biggins]

totally agree with the recurring message of this petition - Red has a basic customer service and ethical obligation to provide bug fixes for DSMC2 for a longer period, as well as allowing 3rd-party media.