DSMC2 users petition to RED

[Luka Sanader]

OK guys let last discuss on open forum about issues with DSMC2 Cameras and what we would like form RED

I can only speak for my self and how i feel but i feel like we, DSMC2 owners were left hanging by RED new direction. They have new cameras and zero interest to fiddle with us. Some of us invested big money in to the systems that are auto-devaluated and personaly i am under the impression that RED has no interest to try to prevent the plummet of the DSMC2 linup

My issues are:

1) we need new firmware with fix bugs that we are dragging for yers
2) we need new Anamorphic options in new firmware
3) we need the Media issue to be unlocked so that 3ed media can be used
4) we need to see if there is something to be made so manufacturers like SmalHD could use Pogos
5) If raptor that has same sensor has really improved OLPF can we see a new filter in old frame for all of us running same sensor in DSMC2
6) can something be arranged about app control that we can use
7) Whats is going on with DSMC2 EVF? can we finally get the real controle of Brightness/Contrast/Chroma
8) some sort of official statment of Red about of the future of support for DSMC2. this is strict political issue and if all the world would know that Red iwll keep reparing and providing services for DSMC2 line for next 3 or 5 yers we would not have such huge plummet in the value of this system.


this isnt some sort of SciFi stuff that we need, its not even something that is challenging the hardware limitations of existing components. We are not asking for "Unlocking" of the speeds and compression rates, no, we are simply asking basic things that Red have improved in the past and that we know they can fix. we dont expect that RED will make new hardware for this lineup of cameras but for sure there are otheres who are willing to make things for this platgorm. In the past that was not the case with Red but now when Angelbird, SmallHD, GDU, Tilta and rest are making accessories for DSMC3 i see no reason why someone wouldn't make caddy for a SSD and i dont see why we would not buy drives our self

Media and monitoring are basic things that could save DSMC2 form becoming EOL, old electronic.


Let us say what we need and lets see if RED will be willing to work with us

 

[Russell M Johnston]

I for one would like to hear about what the next steps for DSMC 2 are, I just bought a Helium camera and love it. Couldn't bring myself to get a Raptor yet, but I really think the Helium will be good for many years but would like to know how much longer we have till they don't support it. I hope it's a few years out for sure.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Luka, I have been very vocal about wanting support for legacy RED cameras and now what I'm seeing with these posts for DSMC2, I think it's getting close to EOL announcements. With RED taking as long as they have to get a Komodo feature firmware update out there, I'm not so sure now of their capability to get all the updates and hardware firmware tweaks and unlocks we've all been asking for with legacy cameras, even without any warranty support or guarantees. I don't think anybody anticipated a forward thinking and futuristic company that would cut their products off well ahead of their prime use cases and it seems to be catching up to them now as they have been in a lull technologically speaking and now competition has caught up fiercely. Had they supported and fostered their products more than they did, including more gradual price decreases as production ramped up, there would now be a sensible ecosystem of RED products to keep competition at bay and not the thrown together used camera marketplace gamble tailing their latest cameras, of which there's only really three at a time now, the affordable one, the special use one, and the top end model. Perhaps RED is getting to the point where they can create this ecosystem with their newer cameras being more open without a lot of the proprietary fluff of older cameras but with the scandals and exposure of RED media and other grievances, like missing firmware features and updates, it's clear that RED could do something with these older cameras but are choosing not to irregardless of whether it helps the lower end users or even their more recent investors, so it just is what it is. As I've said in the past, if RED doesn't want to do it then they should open these older cameras up for third-parties to tinker and invent new software methods and even hardware fixes for these cameras, even if under a small licensing agreement or fee. Again, it's just something they're not doing for whatever reason so until then, I'm interested in watching how the used market reacts to a flood of DSMC2 cameras that are apparently soon to come.

 

[Mark Chang]

What happens to DSMC2 will be a very telling sign of how DSMC3 will be handled when DSMC4 comes out. Some of us don't want to upgrade just yet, speaking for myself I love my Gemini and Dragon sensor. The thing I'm most concerned about is that SSDs have a life-span, our Red Mini-Mags will fail. Perhaps someone would rather skip a generation and get into DSMC4, I understand CFast is not an option for DSMC2. But for the people that have been there since day one, for the people who have finally been able to invest in a RED as their first cinema camera, let be able to purchase our own storage media. I honestly do not believe this is a big ask, we are still representing the RED brand when we shoot and deliver.

 

[Luka Sanader]

What happens to DSMC2 will be a very telling sign of how DSMC3 will be handled when DSMC4 comes out. Some of us don't want to upgrade just yet, speaking for myself I love my Gemini and Dragon sensor. The thing I'm most concerned about is that SSDs have a life-span, our Red Mini-Mags will fail. Perhaps someone would rather skip a generation and get into DSMC4, I understand CFast is not an option for DSMC2. But for the people that have been there since day one, for the people who have finally been able to invest in a RED as their first cinema camera, let be able to purchase our own storage media. I honestly do not believe this is a big ask, we are still representing the RED brand when we shoot and deliver.

Media is the minimum they can do. We are talking about old tec SSD that are already replaced by new standards. RED allowed Kippertie to make 2TB long take. And there was that annoying fellow that went in the war with RED also proved that Samsung SSD works... so ther is no reason why RED would not do this for its own people. If RED had to make a point back in the day or make money on accesories, fine, but that time has past. They are maybe thinking that by unlocking media they would insult all of us who paid top dollar for the media? Not at all! i have paid almost 7000USD my minimags and i would not be insulted if the new eBay grad media would pop up for 300$ per 1TB. That would not even compare to the fact that i lost 10 times more money on the Helium brain alone... and so on...

RED has to understand that without this community of film makers they would not be where they are today. I dont think they are aware of what they are doing by loosing a long term supporters in favor of Komodo newcomers. If i had a dollar for every time i have had conversation with a director or producer about "how Red is cool" i would be a rich man; so what is the message to others if i went from 4 reds to one and if i ditch that last one? I dont think that they are aware of how much people who had shot features on the Red cameras that they owned and how many of those folks switched to Arri or Venice today.

if Toyota, Mercedes, Subaru or BMW would pull this sort of EOL no support to the last year flagship model type of thing they would loose 50% of the loyal base and probably would be banned from some markets with protective consumer laws. Its a silly thing that you can buy a battery or chuck for 7 yers old Makita dril but you cant buy a media or monitro for 85 000 camera. Arri is repairing Alexsas: Classics, Studio, XR and XT if anyone would be silly enough to send them the camera for repair.... Friend of mine had Alexa Studio repaired last year. that camera is almost old as Red One.... If all this is happening elsewhere then why is RED reducing DSMC2 Monstro, Gemini and Helium cameras to AJA Cion and Digital Bolex??


we are asking small things and we are asking that red respects our investment and our loyalty by providing basic minimum for next few years.

 

[Audy Erel]

If they keep on going like this eventually someone might reverse engineer the firmware and creates his/her own modified ones.. just like Magic Lantern does with the Canons!

 

[Luka Sanader]

Let us see if we can create momentum over hire and get them interested. We know that so far RED dont care about DSMC2 any more now lets see if our community care or not. If its just few of us making nois nothing is going to happen, but if we create something hire and we collect a lot of people we could make some traction

lets keep this talk going

 

[Leonardo Newman]

Let us see if we can create momentum over hire and get them interested. We know that so far RED dont care about DSMC2 any more now lets see if our community care or not. If its just few of us making nois nothing is going to happen, but if we create something hire and we collect a lot of people we could make some traction

lets keep this talk going

I’d recommend posting this in the Reduser (Offical) Facebook group as Jarred is in there quite often, while this forum does seem to have more valuable conversations, seems the Red guys arnt here as much these days. Facebook is apparently where it’s at.

 

[Luka Sanader]

i am sure that this will reach RED but we need to mobilize. We have to be vocal on what we expect and we need to show that there is a lot of us. If we DSMC2 owners show no interest to engage RED wont do anything

 

[Mark Chang]

i am sure that this will reach RED but we need to mobilize. We have to be vocal on what we expect and we need to show that there is a lot of us. If we DSMC2 owners show no interest to engage RED wont do anything

I'm with you on this. I've seen some people who bought Epic secondhand still using the 1.8" SSDs. When their drive fails is when they realize they're up shit creek. I've donated my 128GB ones but some are still shooting 7 minutes at a time at 6k on a 64GB RedMag - their new purchase! Not saying they should have done their due diligence but I don't want our media storage to be locked and we're grasping at every string available to just make it work. It's a really stressful thing to think about and I hope DSMC2 owners are onboard with this. If they toss us to the side, DSMC3 owners will taste the same fate and I surely won't be around to experience it if that's the case.

 

[Luka Sanader]

I'm with you on this. I've seen some people who bought Epic secondhand still using the 1.8" SSDs. When their drive fails is when they realize they're up shit creek. I've donated my 128GB ones but some are still shooting 7 minutes at a time at 6k on a 64GB RedMag - their new purchase! Not saying they should have done their due diligence but I don't want our media storage to be locked and we're grasping at every string available to just make it work. It's a really stressful thing to think about and I hope DSMC2 owners are onboard with this. If they toss us to the side, DSMC3 owners will taste the same fate and I surely won't be around to experience it if that's the case.

That is real treat to all of us. Its fine if RED dont want to do anything any more and if they dont find worth to keep running the DSMC2 peripheries but then unlock it and let 3ed party take care of this problem for you. What do RED care about "standars" on DSMC2 media any more. Just let other people make things for it.

I would not go as far to say that there is s schism between DSMC3/Komodo folks and DSMC2 and Legacy users. In fact we are all tied to RED brand as this thing "shooting on Red" always had its own special dimension. As i pointed out abouv, i know several "Red Guys" who shoot and advocated for RED form the bugging and who are now Arri owners that are staying away form RED. This is really powerful message to the producers and Drirectors out there. As RED is more interested in Komodo section of the market image in top tear of the industry is rolling to the mud. They need to start looking in to brand or no one will take this seriously any more.

we need to speak up

 

[PatrickWebb]

I totally agree with the updates on the DSMC2.

I would also like to see an Anamorphic de-squeeze option for the Raven! I know that sounds odd, but it was surprised not to find it in there.

And regarding the EVF, I think I would appreciate that update too.

Word, RED.

 

[Kenneth interiano]

Unlocked media firmware update would definitely be appreciated

 

[Les Hillis]

I hope I don't come across as a dick by responding like this. I'd like to see another DSMC2 firmware update, and I'd even like to explore the possibility of new media options, but I think more clarity is required just to determine what's even feasible.

I'm also of the understanding that any kind of firmware and beta testing costs money and takes time, so am curious if the requests so far are proposing RED pay for that, or is it something people would be willing to pay the cost of, in the form of a paid firmware update, or perhaps even a Kickstarter type thing where people put the money up front just to get a firware version that unlocks the media?


1) we need new firmware with fix bugs that we are dragging for yers

What bugs specifically?

2) we need new Anamorphic options in new firmware

What anamorphic options exactly?

3) we need the Media issue to be unlocked so that 3ed media can be used

What's the business case (how much does it cost, who pays, and how much)? What are the possible implications of doing that for RED that might need to be negotiated?

4) we need to see if there is something to be made so manufacturers like SmalHD could use Pogos

What exactly is the 'something' that could be made, who would make it and why would SmallHD make something that uses the Pogos?

5) If raptor that has same sensor has really improved OLPF can we see a new filter in old frame for all of us running same sensor in DSMC2

Not same sensor.

6) can something be arranged about app control that we can use

What kind of app? What kind of control? They have Foolcontrol?

7) Whats is going on with DSMC2 EVF? can we finally get the real controle of Brightness/Contrast/Chroma

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, it's a hardware issue where the camera internals were limited in what they could output, and they had to choose between a signal more suited to the EVF or the LCD monitor, and they didn't choose the EVF. So, again, I could be wrong, but you'd be asking for a version of the firmware that would make the EVF look alright and everything else look 'off' (and which may be what's required anyway even if it's not working properly for other reasons).

8) some sort of official statment of Red about of the future of support for DSMC2. this is strict political issue and if all the world would know that Red iwll keep reparing and providing services for DSMC2 line for next 3 or 5 yers we would not have such huge plummet in the value of this system.

In the last few days they've stopped selling DSMC2 camera brains and packages on RED.com. If they're actually EOL, they'll probably make an official statment to clarify the status of DSMC2 availabilty and servicing/repair. In the past they've supported their EOL camera's for as long as the spare parts lasted.

 

[Jacopo Rodolfi]

Sudden turn to dsmc 3 third party way and the abandon of upgrades etc was quite a shock for me. Happy with my helium system, hope they continue to support DSMC2 witch took NOT a small effort to buy on my part.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I hope I don't come across as a dick by responding like this. I'd like to see another DSMC2 firmware update, and I'd even like to explore the possibility of new media options, but I think more clarity is required just to determine what's even feasible.

I'm also of the understanding that any kind of firmware and beta testing costs money and takes time, so am curious if the requests so far are proposing RED pay for that, or is it something people would be willing to pay the cost of, in the form of a paid firmware update, or perhaps even a Kickstarter type thing where people put the money up front just to get a firware version that unlocks the media?


1) we need new firmware with fix bugs that we are dragging for yers

What bugs specifically?

2) we need new Anamorphic options in new firmware

What anamorphic options exactly?

3) we need the Media issue to be unlocked so that 3ed media can be used

What's the business case (how much does it cost, who pays, and how much)? What are the possible implications of doing that for RED that might need to be negotiated?

4) we need to see if there is something to be made so manufacturers like SmalHD could use Pogos

What exactly is the 'something' that could be made, who would make it and why would SmallHD make something that uses the Pogos?

5) If raptor that has same sensor has really improved OLPF can we see a new filter in old frame for all of us running same sensor in DSMC2

Not same sensor.

6) can something be arranged about app control that we can use

What kind of app? What kind of control? They have Foolcontrol?

7) Whats is going on with DSMC2 EVF? can we finally get the real controle of Brightness/Contrast/Chroma

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, it's a hardware issue where the camera internals were limited in what they could output, and they had to choose between a signal more suited to the EVF or the LCD monitor, and they didn't choose the EVF. So, again, I could be wrong, but you'd be asking for a version of the firmware that would make the EVF look alright and everything else look 'off' (and which may be what's required anyway even if it's not working properly for other reasons).

8) some sort of official statment of Red about of the future of support for DSMC2. this is strict political issue and if all the world would know that Red iwll keep reparing and providing services for DSMC2 line for next 3 or 5 yers we would not have such huge plummet in the value of this system.

In the last few days they've stopped selling DSMC2 camera brains and packages on RED.com. If they're actually EOL, they'll probably make an official statment to clarify the status of DSMC2 availabilty and servicing/repair. In the past they've supported their EOL camera's for as long as the spare parts lasted.

Regarding the EOL for DSMC2. I can only assume they keep enough inventory to secure warranty for cameras bought late in the cycle. Likely that's like 3 years from now or such. Then also some for ordernary repairs. But I doubt that 4 years from now that Red will service DSMC2. That assumption I can only make from looking at the Red one, Epic / Dsmc1 product cycle. DSMC2 was introduced 2015 and as I remember DSMC1 service was just available some years after that. Which in a way makes sense as it goes quite quick until it's actually less costly to buy a used replacement camera then sending it in for service.

As I see it DSMC2 firmware does not really have any bugs. Sure it freaks out some times and need a restart or such. But for the most part things tend to just work. Feature requests as more anamorphic modes etc... As I see it advanced mode should open up any resolution / squeeze factor possible, Sure its nice to have some defaults to choose from but why limit it to some standards. add a custom mode and let people punch in their own numbers. Might be a fiddle to program but I can't see why it could not be done and I think it would be fair if Red could set a price for such and then people could do a kickstarter or such to collect the funds.

Regarding the restriction to only red licensed media. Why not sell an update that does not have the red SSD lock? Everyone already knows that it was purely a financial decision to lock the minima's. And as there is so many minima's out there, and they are not really selling them any more, why not sell a firmware upgrade and let people replace the internal SSD´s in their mags to get more run time. Plenty of a low cost used mags out there and the replacement SSD´s cost very little now and a way bigger.

What I do not understand is that there is no 3rd party that has come up with a replacement high nits screen for the 7 inch touch. It's a simple low cost DVI touch screen in there. Likely there must be some screen manufacturer that could provide a replacement part that gives the screens a brighter image so we don't have to buy the quite pricy red screen. And yes. also odd that no screen manufacturer have tried to make a red DSMC2 compatible screen alltogether again it's, as I understand, running with a regular DVI touch protocol. Making such screen with pogo connection and a more durable swivel mount and high nits would likely still sell as hotcakes.

Regarding the sensor and OLPF differences between monstro and Raptor... I'm very happy with my monstro sensor, the sensor split issue that raptor has shown is possibly the main reason why I have not bought it yet and the improvements of glare etc between raptor and monstro looks quite negligible.

 

[Alex Zeder]

... replacement high nits screen for the 7 inch touch ...

Although it's only 5.5 and not 7 inch (which I'd prefer), the PortKeys BM5 III WR has 2200 nits, wireless touch camera control for both Komodo and V-Raptor, and connects to the Tilta Nucleus. That's why I use them instead of a larger screen. Occasionally I also connect an additional 7-inch to the second Raptor SDI and keep that one zoomed in for accurate focusing, but all the main ops are handled well from the PortKeys.

 

[Beau Kester]

I agree 1000%. I have a Monstro VV but I regularly shoot on Raptor VV and Komodo for a feature doc film that we are shooting. I much prefer my Monstro. The Komodo has been pretty good but the Raptor has given us many weird issues while shooting. It doesn’t feel like they have the bugs flushed out. Since they abandoned the ability to upgrade their cameras… they ethically should not place DSMC2 into EOL and of course they have an obligation to support it for years to come. If they don’t… people aren’t going to spend $40,000 every year for a new camera. This is crazy

 

[Les Hillis]

Thanks for the insights and observations Björn.

For what it's worth, I'll just add from what you wrote a specific request under -

2) we need new Anamorphic options in new firmware - An advanced custom mode that opens up any resolution/squeeze factor and allows people input their own custom resolution numbers.

Also -

3) we need the Media issue to be unlocked so that 3ed media can be used - A firmware upgrade that allows end-users to replace the SSD's in their own RedMags.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Although it's only 5.5 and not 7 inch (which I'd prefer), the PortKeys BM5 III WR has 2200 nits, wireless touch camera control for both Komodo and V-Raptor, and connects to the Tilta Nucleus. That's why I use them instead of a larger screen. Occasionally I also connect an additional 7-inch to the second Raptor SDI and keep that one zoomed in for accurate focusing, but all the main ops are handled well from the PortKeys.

Its called 7" and then there is the small 5" that does not swivel, and the rather expansive 7" ultra bright. Or am I missing something?

What I would like to see is a replacement for the low cost low nits screen element of the 7" DSMC2 monitor.


https://ymcinema.com/2019/01/23/red-announces-the-dsmc2-touch-7-0″-ultra-brite-lcd-very-bright-2200-nits-very-durable-gorilla-glass-and-very-expensive-3750/